Summary
Today’s inquest hearing has drawn to a close. Today was mostly spent on Man Haron Monis’ mental health although we did hear from a man who trained him in a security guard course in 2012. We learnt:
- Monis was seeing two psychiatrists in 2010 though the pair did not know about each other. One, Kristen Barrett, diagnosed Monis with chronic schizophrenia, though it was a provisional diagnosis. The other, Daniel Murray, saw Monis for five years and diagnosed him with depressive and panic disorders. Murray was shocked this week to find out Monis had also seen Barrett about the same time.
- Barrett said it was possible Monis could have been having a psychotic episode when he undertook the siege. Murray said Monis showed no signs of a psychotic illness when seeing him
- The Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) is trying to stop the inquest from examining why Monis was on bail when he had been charged with more than 40 counts of sexual assault, and with being an accessory to murder.
- While serving his court ordered community service Monis complained about a guard who “made a face” when he asked to break his fast and he wrote a letter questioning if the government was behind her behaviour.
- My colleague Michael Safi has filed an overview of the day which you can read here. We will go and record our third podcast now, it will be up in the next few hours and you can catch up on our thoughts from yesterday here.
Daniel Murray has been excused, we are now hearing submissions from lawyers which are currently under anon-publication order so I cannot report it for the moment. I will let you know what I can let you know when the coroner has made a decision.
Updated
Jeremy Gormly, SC, puts to Daniel Murray that there was “some manipulation” when Man Haron Monis was going to two psychiatrists at the same time in 2010 and not telling each about the other.
Certainly that is a reasonable inference to make.
Murray repeats that he was shocked to learn of another psychiatrist. He seems genuinely shaken by the revelation.
Updated
So, in 2010 Man Haron Monis was seeing two different psychatriasts who had no idea about each other. One diagnosed him with chronic schizophrenia and the other said there was “certainly no indication” to him that Monis had a psychotic illness. The second, Daniel Murray, diagnosed Monis with post traumatic stress disorder and a panic disorder.
Updated
Murray said he was shocked to find out Monis was seeing another psychiatrist about the same time he was seeing Murray - he has only found out this week from evidence before the inquest.
It shows how distinct and compartmentalised the history I received was.
The other psychiatrist, Kristen Barrett, diagnosed Monis with chronic schizophrenia.
Murray said while Monis needed - and wanted - help, he did not think that he had a psychotic illness. Murray diagnosed Monis with a stress induced major depressive disorder and panic disorder.
In 2005 there was certainly no indication that he had a concerning psychotic illness...certainly don’t recall any signs of psychosis.
Murray said while Monis did not have an specific trauma there was an indication because of his refugee status that he had gone through traumatic events in Iran.
Murray first met Monis in 2005:
Initially I recall he presented as a quite legitimate and credible incognito Islamic cleric...he was dressed in western attire. He was quite polite and well spoken, with good English in conversation. There was no indication on inappropriate behaviour.
Murray did not think there were any safety concerns to Monis or people around him.
Asked if established a repertoire with Monis?
“I felt so, I can recall talking to him about some losses in terms of his family being retained in Iran and in my recollection of it, the legitimacy was enhanced by the protection visa that was granted for him.
Murray said Monis’s main concerns were along the spectrum of anxiety and depression.
Imran Ali has been excused and psychiatrist Dr Daniel Murray has been called. He treated Monis in 2006 and 2010.
Some of Murray’s files on Monis have been “inadvertently destroyed” but he does have some surviving material, and he can recall some of his encounters with Monis.
He treated Monis for a panic disorder among other illnesses.
It’s interesting we are hearing from someone who had contact with Monis for 14 evenings in 2012. No friends or people Monis was social with have been called to the inquest but we have heard from people who met him, mostly through their work, for brief periods, years ago.
One wonders if there are many, if any, friends to call.
Updated
Ali describes Monis as a “show off”. He taught him over 14 evenings in April, 2012.
I saw him outside the training facility and he was presenting his car to the [other] trainees who were about half his age. There were quite a few trainees gathered around his car, I think at that time he was driving a BMW...The age gap was very significant between Monis and the crowd he was with.
Ali said he thought Monis was trying to impress the young trainees and it struck him as “unusual behaviour”.
Ali said Monis was very passive in the classroom but outside of it he was “expressive” and would talk to people about what Ali described as “different” topics.
Did Ali get the feeling Monis was trying to be popular with younger students?s
Yes.
Ali said he was surprised when he found out Monis was responsible for the siege as it was so different from the person he had encountered in 2012.
Ali says his course was an unarmed one and Monis did not undergo any training with guns under Ali’s tuition.
Junior counsel assisting, Sophie Callan, is going through the various modules of the course before we get to Ali’s impressions of Monis.
Imran Ali ran a course Man Haron Monis undertook in 2012. The course was training to be a security guard. It was 80 hours of attendance and involved studying 14 units which were done based on classroom style training.
At the completion of the course a student would be partially qualified to work as a security guard, with on the job training still needed.
Kristen Barrett has been excused from the inquest and Imran Ali, a security guard trainer who trained Monis in 2012, has been called.
Updated
Dr Kristen Barrett does not rule out the her provisional diagnosis of chronic schizophrenia could have been wrong and it is possible Man Haron Monis was suffering from another disorder.
She tells the legal representation of the police that Monis responded to the anti-psychotic medication. The lawyer seems to be suggesting Monis could have had a delusional disorder.
He puts to Barrett that “delusional disorders are sometimes not as effectively diagnosed and responded to as would be preferable”.
She responds:
I don’t know it that’s appropriate...I have certainly treated people with delusional disorders.”
Barrett says it was difficult when Monis decided to stop seeing her and took himself off the medication.
It was difficult because he had turned up to appointments when he had no insight [into his illness], I tried to leave the door as open as possible because perhaps he might choose to get help again.
Psychiatrist Dr Kristen Barrett is back giving evidence at the coronial inquest. She is being questioned by the legal representation of the police.
She agrees that she never got beyond the arm’s length Man Haron Monis was keeping her at in their sessions. When asked why he kept coming to see her, Barrett responds:
It puzzled me the whole time. It was a constant question for me.
She agrees he was a courteous man and was never aggressive or rude to Barrett.
Summary
We have adjourned for an hour for lunch. There are a couple of things to take note of from the evidence so far today:
-
Man Haron Monis was diagnosed with chronic schizophrenia in 2010 but stopped seeing his psychiatrist in 2011. He was on anti-psychotic medication and an anti-depressant during that time but took himself off both - it should be noted here that it does not mean Monis’ mental health was the reason he took 18 people hostage and there is still quite a large tranche of evidence to be examined for a motive.
- The Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) is trying to stop the inquest from examining why Monis was on bail when he had been charged with more than 40 counts of sexual assault, and with being an accessory to murder.
- While serving his court ordered community service Monis complained about a guard who “made a face” when he asked to break his fast and he wrote a letter questioning if the government was behind her behaviour.
Kristen Barrett is being questioned by Katrina Dawson’s legal representation.
She confirms Monis did not have hallucinations and while she would have preferred he came to his appointments she was not too concerned that he refused to.
It’s always good to see your doctor.
Monis took himself off both the antidepressants and medication for his schizophrenia. He saw Barrett for the last time in September, 2011 after failing to show up for his appointment after seeing her in November, 2010.
Barrett says he was “very far” from a person she would consider scheduling - when someone is hospitalised without their consent because they are a danger to themselves or other people.
Dr Kristen Barrett is back on the stand after a brief adjournment. She preliminarily diagnosed Man Haron Monis with chronic schizophrenia but says she did not seem him enough to give a final diagnosis.
It’s very difficult to say over the period of time that I saw him, to make a very clear assessment I would have to see him probably for a few years. It seemed to me when his illness was treated, he did well.
Counsel assisting, Jeremy Gormly, SC, spends quite a while on the spectrum of schizophrenia noting it is not seen as a very serious diagnosis in the medical community but lay people may be under the impression it is serious.
Barrett says she would say Monis was in the low range, but it’s “possible” he would fit into another range. She did not see anything that indicated he was at the severe end.
There is a short adjournment and I also have another quick update on something that happened yesterday that media mistakenly believed fell under a non-publication order:
The Director of Public Prosecutions is try to stop the coronial inquest examining why Man Haron Monis was granted bail when he was charged with 43 counts of sexual assault as well as being an accessory to murder. The sexual assault charges are unrelated to the accessory to murder charge.
The inquest is set to examine whether prosecuting authorities acted “adequately” in relation to bail but the DPP is trying to argue that the inquest is looking too widely. Lawyers will make submission to the coroner, Michael Barnes, and a decision is likely to be made next Friday.
Updated
Barrett had appointments with Monis in July, September and November. At one point he wrote a letter to the psychiatrist concerned he had not said please and thank you enough when he had his appointment.
He was concerned he may be causing Barrett offence?
Yes.
Barrett is also asked by counsel assisting, Jeremy Gormly, SC, if she asked Monis if Arabic was his mother tongue or if she assumed it. Barrett says she assumed it.
The type of Arabic that Monis spoke (Classical) is a point continually brought up by Gormly during these hearings.
In September, 2011 Barrett began to form view anxiety was playing a role in Monis’ mental health issues.
He showed some perfectionistic traits, he hand washed a lot, he liked to do things in a very particular order.
Barrett said it was not at an OCD level, but indicated anxiety.
She gave Monis a prescription for sertraline an antidepressant that is also used for treating anxiety. He was taking it along with his anti-psychotic medication.
Updated
Barrett saw Monis again two months later, in July 2010 and Monis was “much improved”.
He was less worried about being followed and at time didn’t think about it at all.
I just want to take a moment to remind people we should not infer, and I am certainly not implying, that Monis undertook the siege because he was mentally ill. Today’s evidence is part of a huge tranche of information we will hear about Monis and we should be careful not to jump to conclusions about his motivations.
Updated
Monis was “guarded, but not threatening” during his appointment with psychiatrist Kristen Barrett.
He didn’t verbally say that he wanted to be there but he did attend an appointment, despite being guarded was polite though the appointment, not threatening.
Barrett said Monis was convinced he was being watched by Asio and “various groups in Iran”.
Monis told Barrett he did not want to use his Medicare card, Barrett is unsure if he used one or not as she did not usually handle Medicare cards.
Barrett preliminarily diagnosed Monis with chronic schizophrenia and prescribed him a standard low dose of anti-psychotic medication Risperdal.
I felt his ideas were delusional and they had been going on for a considerable period of time so I therefore thought it was chronic schizophrenia.
Barrett says one of the things that would have changed her management of Monis’ schizophrenia if he was threatening or intimidating.
He was not threatening or intimidating.
It was however not a clinical diagnosis as Barrett had not had many sessions with Monis.
Dr Kristen Barrett says when she first saw Monis he was wearing a cap and sunglasses and quite paranoid. She said as time went on he stopped wearing the cap and glasses to their appointments and it became easier for him to sit in the waiting room.
He felt he was being watched all the time even in the bathroom, when he came in he was concerned about me recording conversations and he also had concerns about his Medicare card which I thought were unusual.
It is worth noting here that Monis had been taken off Asio’s terror watch list in 2009.
Barrett said it was “very difficult” to get any idea about Monis’ past history from him. All he would say was he had recently left his job.
He was extremely guarded.
Margaret Kedzierska’s evidence is complete and Doctor Kristen Barrett, a psychiatrist who treated Monis in 2010 and 2011, is now on the stand.
Monis was referred to her from Canterbury Hospital after complaining of being weak and dizzy. He was assessed as having a mental health problem rather than a medical problem.
Updated
Monis began community service at the Bankstown Police Citizens Youth Club. However he left when he had just 10 hours (out of 357) remaining to complete due to a complaint he made regarding a female officer at the club.
On 9 July 2014 Monis wrote a complaint stating the officer had “made a face” when he asked to break his fast in the afternoon (likely related to Ramadan) and had complained when he prayed. She reportedly said to Monis:
When you pray you go on and on and on.
Monis asked in his letter:
You are the manager and I want you to please investigate if this is a plan from the government or there was nothing to do with the government and it was particular problem with this officer.
Monis finished his final 10 hours of community services at Rookwood Cemetery.
Updated
In October and November 2013, while performing community service at Booth College, the Salvation Army’s education and training body, Kedzierska said Monis’s “attendance was satisfactory and his work was mostly satisfactory”.
There was just one case note, in which the agency supervisor had stated Monis spoke about writing to the prime minister regarding soldiers being sent overseas, and said he had done so as a “peace activist”.
Monis was keen to complete his community service order and avoid jail time. In early 2014 he was arrested for new offences and following his release was not able to continue his community service at Booth College “due to the sexual nature of these allegations”, said Kedzierska.
Kedzierska said Monis’s only paid employment was as a security guard over 15 years ago, for a period of two to three years. Then from 2001-2007 he ran his own business as a spiritual consultant, in Liverpool, Burwood and Wenthworthville.
He closed this in 2008 as he wanted to commence study. But in 2009 was charged with the current offences and unable to continue his studies.
Monis stated to Kedzierska that when he sent those offensive letters to the families of dead Australian soldiers he “wanted to offer condolences” motivated by the desire to see a “change in government policy”.
Kedzierska said:
He appeared not to have insight into his actions and no empathy for the family of the soldiers and he could not understand why this was an offence.
Junior counsel assisting, Sophie Callan then asked Kedzierska if Monis was seeking to minimise his conduct.
Oh yes.
Monis also stated to Kedzierska that he had no mental or physical health issues.
Margaret Kedzierska, a community corrections officer from the NSW Corrective Services, has taken to the stand with junior counsel assisting, Sophie Callan questioning.
Kedzierska was asked in early August 2013 to assess whether Monis was suitable for community service, at request of the courts.
According to Kedzierska the offender stated he was born in Iran, the youngest and only son. His father was deceased and his mother and siblings were still in Iran, along with a wife he no longer has a relationship with, and two daughters aged 17 and 20 he was in contact with.
At the time of the interview he was living with a woman he was in a relationship with.
Kedzierska described Monis as “co-operative and compliant and willing to discuss the issues.”
I have some details on some of the witnesses we will be hearing from today:
Margaret Kedzierska – a community corrections officer from NSW Corrective Services.
Dr Kristen Barrett – a psychiatrist who treated Monis in 2011.
Imran Ali – a security guard trainer who treated Monis in 2012.
Dr Daniel Murray – a psychiatrist who treated Monis in 2010 and 2006.
Good morning and welcome to the third day of the resumed hearings of the coronial inquest into the deaths of Sydney siege victims Katrina Dawson and Tori Johnson, and gunman Man Haron Monis.
Today we will hear from psychiatrists and other mental health workers who treated Monis for schizophrenia and depression. Counsel assisting Jeremy Gormly, SC, has been careful to emphasise that Monis’ mental health problems only make up part of his character, and potentially were not a major factor in his decision to walk into the Lindt cafe with a gun last December.
Yesterday, the inquest heard that Monis was convinced customs officials at airports had a vendetta against him, you can read Michael Safi’s story on the proceedings here.
Safi and I have also recorded our second (10 minute) podcast on what we learned through the day and key points from the inquest. You can listen here.
