A former trainee prison custody officer said he was not happy to call transgender prisoners by their pronouns because it was a “lie”, an employment tribunal has heard.
David Toshack has taken security firm GEOAmey to an employment tribunal, saying he was sacked because he refused to use “incorrect pronouns” for transgender prisoners.
Stefan Weir, who is employed by GEOAmey as a prisoner custody officer at Dundee Sheriff Court, was on the same training course as Mr Toshack and they became friends.
He told the tribunal Mr Toshack made the comments during a training session on January 7 last year after Sarah Harvey, who was leading the class, said it was the law that transgender prisoners should be called by their pronouns.
Mr Weir said: “She was putting quite a lot emphasis that it is the law and GEOAmey policy that we should call transgenders by their pronouns.”
David Hay KC, representing Mr Toshack, asked Mr Weir whether he remembered Mr Toshack saying anything about that.
Mr Weir told the tribunal: “He stated that it is not the law and that he was not happy to call transgender people by their pronouns because it is a lie.”
He said there was then discussion between Mr Toshack and Ms Harvey about the issue and Mr Toshack said it was company policy but not UK law.
Mr Hay asked whether Mr Toshack said anything about what he was or was not prepared to do to, to which Mr Weir replied: “He said he was not prepared to lie and call a transgender a pronoun that is the opposite of their sex.”
He told the tribunal Mr Toshack’s tone of voice was “normal” during the discussion and he used “firm but respectful” language.
Mr Weir said Ms Harvey then asked Mr Toshack to leave the room with her and the class soon heard he had been dismissed.
He told the tribunal he accompanied Mr Toshack to his car and he seemed “shocked and upset”.
Mr Toshack, 51, a former soldier from Fife, says he was dismissed by GEOAmey in January last year for refusing to call trans prisoners “she” or “her”.
He says he was dismissed with immediate effect on his final week of training after being asked to leave a training session where he said he would only use sex-based pronouns.
In his employment tribunal claim against the security company, he says he was unlawfully discriminated against.
Michael McLaughlin, representing GEOAmey, asked Mr Weir whether he remembered Ms Harvey saying something along the lines of even if people disagree with the rules as a result of their personal views, they should put these personal views aside and treat everyone with dignity and respect.
Mr Weir said he did “vaguely” remember her saying that.
Mr McLaughlin also suggested Mr Weir was not objective and impartial because of his friendship with Mr Toshack.
Mr Weir replied: “I am saying what I have witnessed and seen.”
In the afternoon, the tribunal heard from Ms Harvey, senior safeguarding lead with GEOAmey, who was asked about the session she delivered on January 7 last year.
She said she mentioned a leaflet that should be provided to transgender women and described Mr Toshack’s reaction.
Ms Harvey said: “Mr Toshack expressed some views in relation to transgenders, having a strong opinion that if you were born a male you will remain a male, and that’s what he would be referencing individuals as.”
Mr McLaughlin asked what she said to that and she replied she referenced equality law and the requirement in the company standard operating procedures.
She told the tribunal she asked if he felt that was not relevant and would he not adhere to it, and he replied he would not.
Ms Harvey added: “When I spoke about transgender women I spoke about pronouns and Mr Toshack said he would not be referring to them by their pronouns.”
The witness said she took Mr Toshack into the corridor to continue the discussion, and then went to the HR department to discuss the issue.
Asked why she went to HR, she said: “I had concerns around the care and welfare being provided to anyone within our care and had concerns that that may not be met and felt I had to share those concerns at that time.”
Ms Harvey was later questioned by Mr Hay, representing Mr Toshack.
She told him Mr Toshack acted aggressively towards her after saying he would not use the preferred pronouns of trans prisoners.
Ms Harvey said he “presented aggressively” during the training session over their difference in opinion, but Mr Hay asked: “Do you not, within your statement, do anything to expand on what it was that was aggressive presentation by Mr Toshack, do you?”
She agreed she had not done so, saying this was because she had never dealt with such an incident before during her time working for GEOAmey.
The tribunal, which is taking place in Edinburgh before employment judge Amanda Jones, will continue next week.
