Opposition Leader Sussan Ley has had a rugged start as leader. With Liberal rivals Angus Taylor and Andrew Hastie circling for her position, Ley needs to not only survive, but rebuild her party from its historic lows in the polls.
Just hours after Labor announced a new deal with the Greens to pass new environment laws, and former Nationals leader Barnaby Joyce quit his party and the Coalition, Ley joined us on the podcast.
On Joyce’s defection to become an independent MP and potentially join One Nation, Ley said she would leave the commentary to others.
Barnaby, while being a friend of mine – has been for many years, we’re both long-term colleagues in the parliament – is a free agent when it comes to why he’s leaving the Nationals, what he’s going to do next.
These are all matters for him I wouldn’t commentate on. And I don’t sit in the Nationals’ party room. So I really can’t comment on what goes on there, or what any of the thinking might be right now.
With respect to our coalition with the Nationals, I do want to say this: that we are stronger together, the Liberals and Nationals. I firmly believe that, because together we can fight this Labor government as the non-Labor parties of opposition.
On Thursday morning, Prime Minister Anthony Albanese announced his government had struck with the Greens to pass new environment laws.
Ley says the Opposition had been negotiating with the government into early Thursday morning – until “that fell apart” and the deal with the Greens was announced.
At nine o'clock [Wednesday] night, I was talking to Senator [Jonno] Duniam and the Shadow Minister of Environment Angie Bell, and they were showing me a table with where we had got to with seven key requests around amendments and how the conversation was going […] and they had early conversations very early this morning.
[…] I honestly think there wasn’t an intention to make it work with us. The simple reason for that is there isn’t a rule that says this has to be completed today. There’s actually a committee process that was stretching into next year, into March, in fact.
[…] I think [this was] very rushed. And I’m very doubtful how this is actually going to achieve what the prime minister has said it will around either protecting the environment, but more importantly speeding up approvals processes.
On Ley’s previous support for a net zero emissions target for 2050 compared to her party’s policy now, Ley said that changing circumstances led her to change her view.
I’m 100% committed to the policy that I’m talking about today.
I looked at the circumstances we’re facing, the evidence about what the transition to a long-term target of net zero has meant for the economy and the country and for households, and realised that we are totally on the wrong track.
So in expressing views about net zero in the past, I would see them through the prism of I care about climate change, I care about reducing emissions. I want Australia to play its part. I meant that then, I mean that now.
This week, the latest Australian Election Study revealed voters ranked Labor ahead of the Coalition as the preferred party on economic management and taxation for the first time.
Asked about the Coalition’s chances of winning at the next election, Ley said she doesn’t accept it will take two elections to get back to government:
Not at all. The role of opposition is to hold the government to account, to fight for what we believe in, to develop that policy offering and to take it forward. And I think this is a terrible government. I don’t think this government deserves to win the next election.
There is no agenda. There is no ambition for Australians. And what has been delivered this year […] is higher power prices, higher inflation and […] a really challenging budget bottom line for individual households, with the prospect of higher interest rates next year. So higher cost of living sums all that up and families are hurting.
On attracting more women to the party, Ley congratulated both of the newly-elected Liberal leaders in Victoria in New South Wales. But she said she remains “agnostic” about how the party attracts more women.
I just want to recognise those outstanding female leaders: Jess Wilson in Victoria, Kellie Sloane in New South Wales, and of course we have the chief minister of the Northern Territory, Lia Finocchiaro. And they are shining examples for Liberal leadership across this country at a state and territory level.
[…] As I’ve mentioned before, the role of candidates and selection is one that individual divisions make. We don’t do it from the federal organisational level, nor should we.
We’ve got [Senator] James McGrath doing a longer-term review of how we make the Liberal Party – like many organisations – more relevant to the job that we want to do for Australians and the role that people can play in that if they join us as members.
[…] I’m agnostic about how we achieve more women. But we must get there.
Full Transcript
MICHELLE GRATTAN: Sussan Ley, from the outside, it looks to have been the leadership initiation from hell. But can you give us a bit of a feel from what it’s felt like on the inside
THE HON SUSSAN LEY MP, LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Every day, I feel a sense of privilege to lead the Liberal Party that has been part of my adult life as long as I can remember, and to lead a team that’s dedicated to our values, and our values are freedom, aspiration, enterprise, fighting for the Australian people. And the point I just made in the parliament now was that we will approach what we do through the prism of our values, wherever those values are, and I respect the philosophical divide, but there’s a real sense of achievement in prosecuting those values and seeing how if we apply the policies we’re developing to the circumstances of the Australian people, they would be better off. And it’s as simple as that. So I suppose, Michelle, I’m giving you a sense of the enthusiasm that I felt on day one, that I still feel, and obviously it’s been a new role to be the Leader, but it’s been incredibly as I said, it’s been an incredibly privileged experience.
MICHELLE GRATTAN: But what have you found the hardest part of the job? It’s obviously been very tough.
LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I’ve had a lot of tough jobs in my life, and I think everyone would agree I had a strong work ethic as Deputy, and it was tough to see the result of the last election. It was tough to lose colleagues from the parliament. It’s often a reflection I make when I see Australians experiencing really tough times in their lives after natural disasters or a family crisis, or that they just don’t have the income to meet their household expenses. So I don’t see what I do necessarily as being tough, because I have never lost that feeling of gratitude for the country I live in, what it’s given to my children, what the opportunities it provides for the next generation, and it’s that next generation that I fight for. So there really are people in Australia now who are doing it tough.
MICHELLE GRATTAN: But in terms of what you do, you’ve got a really punishing media schedule, for example, what sort of stamina does it take to maintain that?
LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I’m lucky in that I suppose I’m someone who’s always had a lot of energy, and that’s what my friends and family frequently reflect. And I’m doing something that I love, and it’s very important to me, and that does give you the stamina and the energy that you need. I mean, I’m not Superwoman. There’ll be days when I have a long sleep in not many, because I’ve always got something to do. And even when I find myself at home with a bit of time off, I’m always busy because I like being busy, and I’m often reading about something that’s relevant to the public policy debate, or I’m talking to someone, or I’m more importantly than talking and reading, I’m listening. So wherever I go, I’m listening to people’s real world experiences in this country and understanding their perspectives.
MICHELLE GRATTAN: We’re talking about, we’re talking today, on the last parliamentary day of the year, and the Greens have just done a deal on the environment legislation. Now I don’t want to reprosecute the arguments on that, but did the coalition really try to get a deal, or were you going through the motions?
LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Yes, we did. At nine o'clock last night, I was talking to Senator Duniam and the Shadow Minister of Environment, Angie Bell, and they were showing me a table with where we’ve got to with seven key requests around amendments, and you know how the conversation was going, and they had subsequent conversations later than that. They had early conversations, very early this morning. And where we were was also where industry was. So we were working at that stage with industry, because clearly they understood much of the implications of Labor’s laws for them, and that fell apart. And I honestly think there wasn’t an intention to make it work with us.
The simple reason for that is that there isn’t a rule that says this has to be completed today. There’s actually a committee process that was stretching into next year, into March, in fact, and given that we haven’t seen this legislation for very long, and it’s 1500 pages, and we should be hearing from all of the industries and the people who are committed to protecting the environment, and they’re all from the same people during a committee process that didn’t happen. So I think very rushed, and I’m very doubtful about how this is actually going to achieve what the Prime Minister has said it will around either protecting the environment, but more importantly, speeding up approvals processes. And having been an Environment Minister, I know what it takes to do that, and unfortunately, at the moment, the department isn’t working with an established timeline, so you don’t need new legislation, by the way, to fix that. You just need statutory timeframes being adhered to.
But the big worry just quickly is that if we are going to expand electricity generation in this country, and we must, because the answer to more affordable energy is more supply in the system, this legislation will specifically put any gas approvals in the slow lane. How can that actually deliver both the resources sector and our export industries, but more importantly, our domestic gas consumption and power generation? What it means it can’t.
MICHELLE GRATTAN: Let’s talk about Net Zero. As if we haven’t talked about it enough a few years ago, of course, as you remember, you said, n"o one wants to get to net zero more quickly than I do" Now, did you change your mind on net zero? Or are you following the majority view of your party?
LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I’m 100% committed to the policy that I’m talking about today….
MICHELLE GRATTAN: Did you change your mind though.
LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I looked at the circumstances we’re facing, the evidence about what the transition to a long term target of Net Zero has meant the economy and the country and for households, and realize that we are totally on the wrong track. So in expressing views about net zero in the past, I would see them through the prism of, I care about climate change. I care about reducing emissions. I want Australia to play its part. I meant that then I mean that now, and if you look at our affordable energy plan, it is also about responsible emissions reduction in a clear, articulated way that allows us to demonstrate that we do mean business when it comes to reducing emissions.
MICHELLE GRATTAN: There’s been some criticism that you are being too led by the Nationals. I wonder if you could address that point of course, we saw the announcement by Barnaby Joyce that he was resigning from the Nationals and he is expected to go to One Nation, do you think that he would improve their vote winning power?
LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: That’s commentary that I would leave to others, because Barnaby, while being a friend of mine, has been for many years. We’re both long term colleagues in the Parliament, is a free agent when it comes to why he’s leaving the Nationals what he’s going to do next. These are all matters for him. I wouldn’t commentate on, and I don’t sit in the Nationals party room. So I really can’t comment on what goes on there, or what any of the thinking might be right now with respect to our coalition with the Nationals. I do want to say this, that we are stronger together, the Liberals and Nationals. I firmly believe that because together, we can fight this Labor Government as the non Labor parties of opposition. And we came to our energy policy independently. When I became leader, I said we would arrive at our energy policy in our Liberal Party party room, and we have they did in their party room. We came together. There were some changes in the final enunciation of our joint policy, but it does answer the call to really have something for Australian families that shows them a pathway with energy affordability and actually get serious about if you are playing your role in reducing global emissions, as I said from the beginning, we would do through our energy policy. This is the way to do it, because what we knew as Liberals and Nationals coming together was that the government’s policy is not working. In fact, it’s taking our country and our economy backwards. So to join together as a strong Coalition to fight that is really important
MICHELLE GRATTAN: just to turn to broader strategy. Peter Dutton, particularly focused, as you remember, on outer suburban seats. Do you have a particular focus in terms of your major electoral pitch, obviously, you’re focusing on a whole range of target seats, but your major pitch?
LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Every seat across the country. Because I don’t distinguish between Australians, we vote every three years, but we’re Australians every single day, so I don’t necessarily agree that in the past, we focused on some seats more than others. Our message, my message will resonate with all Australians, I believe, and we’re working hard to develop serious, credible policy offerings to do exactly that.
So far, I’ve talked about living within our means. I’ve made a clear commitment to manage the budget responsibly and for budget repair, something that, with a trillion dollars in debt is running away from us under Labor. I’ve also said we will deliver substantial personal income tax cuts to low and middle income earners by the next election. So that’s two clear new policy areas.
I’ve also said we will look at industrial relations, because businesses and workers are going backwards with this inflexible industrial relations arrangement. I’ve talked about migration policies before the end of the year, you’ve seen our energy policy, and I’ve made a detailed speech on defense spending needing to be 3 per cent as a floor, not a ceiling. So I’ve said a lot, and there’ll be more to come.
MICHELLE GRATTAN: We’ll come back to a couple of those areas in a minute. But do you accept that you’re looking at a two election strategy?
LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Not at all. The role of opposition is to hold the government to account, to fight for what we believe in, to develop that policy offering and to take it forward. And I think this is a terrible government. I don’t think this government deserves to win the next election. There is no agenda. There is no ambition for Australians. And what has been delivered this year has been, quite simply, not the shopping list that the Prime Minister rattles out, which is a few things that I don’t think Australians relate to at all given their own personal experiences. What has been delivered is higher power prices, higher inflation, and, you know, a really challenging budget bottom line for individual households with the prospect of higher interest rates next year. So higher cost of living sums all that up, and families are hurting. So there’s nothing coming down the track from this government to demonstrate to families about what can make their lives easier. So I don’t think this government deserves to win the next election.
MICHELLE GRATTAN: Well deserving is rather different from actuality, and they do have a heap of seats, but perhaps moving on to a specific seat, people are wondering whether Josh Frydenberg will run again for Kooyong. Would you like to see him run? And have you spoken to him? Since you’ve been leader?
LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I have spoken to Josh. He’s been a great friend, an amazing colleague while in the Parliament, and we would love to have him back in the building.
MICHELLE GRATTAN: And will you be urging?
LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Well, I talk to Josh regularly..
MICHELLE GRATTAN: Urging him to run?
LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Well, anyone who can move the existing member for Kooyong on will be most welcome.
LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Now you mentioned migration, the policy is coming before the end of the year. Will that be a general policy, or will it have numbers and will it say specific things about specific categories of visas and occupations and the like?
LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: It will describe our principles, and it will give clear indicators to Australians about what our policy will be. The numbers will come when we get the information from this government about their numbers, and that’s important, because every time they estimate a visa category quota, whether they talk about the number of migrants in a particular area, when they forecast the net overseas migration figure, they are out often by factors of almost 50 to 100 per cent so they haven’t got the detail of their own policy right, and the proof of that is they have no forward plan. And I think Australians would expect their government to have a population policy forward plan that actually explains to them what their migration policy is, not a number thrown out there every now and then, subsequently proven to be wrong. And remember that within the stream of migrants, there are different visa categories, and broadly we have skilled migrants very relevant to rural areas. We have family reunion, we have the humanitarian we have students from studying overseas, and we have visas that last sometimes 12 months, sometimes three years, and then we have ongoing arrangements after that. So I’m not trying to make it sound more complex than it is. I’m trying to explain that it is very complex, and that further detail will be revealed as we get closer to understanding where this government’s precise numbers are.
MICHELLE GRATTAN: Now you mentioned these speeches, that you’ve already given, and one that I was particularly interested in was your one about ending the age of dependency. And I have to say, it did remind me of Joe Hockey in opposition talking about ending the age of entitlement. How are you going to sell to voters who are very much in the here and now and what’s in it for me now, a policy or set of policies that inevitably will take some things away from some voters via means testing or whatever. How do you sell that?
LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: We have to be clear eyed about the level of debt we’re facing and the number of Australians who are working not in the private sector, but in the public sector or dependent on welfare. So more than half of all voters receive more than half of their income from the public sector from subsidies or from welfare. Now this is not about not wanting people in those sectors. They’re incredibly valuable, people in the public services in schools and hospitals, who, of course, are government employees. That’s not what this is about. What this is about is the fact that the private sector is the engine room of our economy going forward and the private sector has not been engaged, is not delivering because it’s not allowed to under this government, and the crowding out of the public spending is holding out our economy in a way that is very bad for productivity. So the short answer your question is, how do I explain it? I explain it this way by saying, I’m not going to stand by and that Generation Z and Millennials look at my generation and say, we think our generation do we really think it’s okay for them to inherit a lower standard of living? I’m not going to stand for that. And when I talk to those younger generations and explain this, they do understand, and they do appreciate that this spending is what is both out of control, inflation in the economy, but also working against their interests to have the job they deserve in a growing economy and actually find a pathway into a house. We cannot accept that the next generation will be poorer. It is a disgrace for any government to sit back and allow that to happen. That’s how I explain it, and I get a lot of people understanding then that there is something here to fight for, and we need to be the ones doing it.
MICHELLE GRATTAN: You’ve spoken about promising lower taxation, and during the election campaign, Peter Dutton floated the idea of tax indexation, that didn’t go ahead for various reasons, but it’s an attractive policy. Are you looking at that?
LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: The proposal we will take will reduce personal income taxes, and that is because Australians are paying more and more of their income as personal income tax. So the proposal that we take will reduce their personal income taxes. And I want to say this because the Liberal Party will always be working on tax reform. That’s a start, and we will continue to do the work that we need to across policy areas with respect to taxation, but because low and middle income earners are hurting, now that’s where we’re going to start.
MICHELLE GRATTAN: Have you been attracted, though, to the idea of at least in the long term, tax indexation?
LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: We’ll look at everything, and that includes all of the taxes and all of their applications, but my commitment is that we will deliver lower personal income tax cuts. And I can’t be more specific than that, and this is two and a half years out from an election, and I’ve been very specific about it indeed. So every time this government is generous with other people’s money, borrowed money on the national credit card ,people should think that we will apply that either to budget repair or personal income tax cuts.
MICHELLE GRATTAN: Recently, both the New South Wales Liberal Party and the Victorian Liberal Party have elected female leaders, but you still have the problem of getting more women into the federal party. How is your thinking going on the question of quotas, and what sort of reaction are you getting from the rank and file of your party on quotas?
LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I just want to recognise those outstanding female leaders. Jess Wilson in Victoria, Kellie Sloane in New South Wales. And of course, we have the Chief Minister of the Northern Territory, Lia Finocchiaro, and they are shining the examples for liberal leadership across this country at state and territory level. I know that the divisions are taking this very seriously, and as I’ve mentioned before, the role of candidates and selection is one of the individual divisions make. We don’t do it from the Federal organisational level, nor should we. We’ve got James McGrath doing a longer term review of how we make the Liberal Party on many organisations more relevant to the job that we want to do for Australians, and the role that people can play in that if they join us as members. So James McGraw, well respected, is doing that work.
MICHELLE GRATTAN: Are you getting feedback on this issue?
LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I’m getting feedback. Well, I’m delighted to be getting feedback from a lot of women who are stepping forward…
MICHELLE GRATTAN: What are they saying?
LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Well, they’re interested in joining the party, becoming candidates. They can see the train wreck of the current government from the perspective of where they’re living their lives. They want to get involved. And I always say, take that first step. It’s not about coming from. I mean, I was the secretary of my PNC, and I joined my local Liberal Party branch, and that was terrific, because I love the contest of ideas. I did that for a while, and then I took the next step and the next step. So it’s always about the mentoring and the encouragement that so many of my amazing Liberal Party female colleagues are doing right here, right now, in divisions all across the country. It’s fantastic.
MICHELLE GRATTAN: So is your goal 50/50, gender diversity in the party?
LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Well, as I said, I’m agnostic about how we achieve the goal or women goal, but we must get there..
MICHELLE GRATTAN: 50/50?
LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Well, I’m agnostic about how we achieve that higher representation, because I want to recognise that our state divisions have a role to play in this. And I’m not going to cut across either the review that we haven’t yet received from Pru Goward and Nick Minchin, so I asked them to present a campaign review. That’s its final stages. Let’s see what that says and take the next important steps after that.
MICHELLE GRATTAN: Sussan Ley, thank you for talking with us on a very busy day, and that’s all for today’s Conversation Podcast.
[ENDS]
Michelle Grattan does not work for, consult, own shares in or receive funding from any company or organisation that would benefit from this article, and has disclosed no relevant affiliations beyond their academic appointment.
This article was originally published on The Conversation. Read the original article.
