3pm update: BBC kids boss Richard Deverell admits that a move north risks "a catastrophic loss of experience and talent" and ITV director of programmes Simon Shaps is accused of "defending the indefensible" - the broadcaster's (lack of) commitment to regional programmes.
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So here we are at the Lowry - matchstick men, that sort of thing - a splendid building in Salford Quays, for the 14th annual TV from the Nations and Regions Conference. Outside, it's now just blowing a gale. The rain has stopped. Welcome to the north west, folks...
11.30am: BBC chief operating officer Caroline Thomson would dearly love to say that the Salford move is definitely, definitely going ahead. Only she can't - something about a licence fee settlement dragging on...
There's an elephant in the room - the as yet unsettled licence fee settlement.
"We believe a deal has been done and is being discussed in cabinet as we speak," said Steve Hewlett, conference chair and MediaGuardian columnist, in his intro to BBC chief operating officer Caroline Thomson's keynote speech.
"The first thing you might notice [about Caroline] is that she isn't Michael Grade," he adds. Apparently Mikey was due to give this speech - before he scarpered to ITV.
Thomson begins: "Mike originally agreed to speak assuming the licence fee would be settled. Well Mike's gone and the licence fee is not settled."
A bit of Salford move hokey-kokey ensues - are the BBC in, or out, or in again?
Is the move definitely going ahead, asks Hewlett? Thomson sounds like she'd dearly be able to say too right it is!, but can't.
"The final decision is up to the BBC Trust, who have now taken over from the governors. They must take account of the licence fee settlement, which we hope the government is going to confirm any day now," she says. OK, so... in or out?
"The advice [the BBC Trust] has received from the outgoing governors is very positive. They approved the move in principle." Yay - go Salford! "The governors therefore were enthusiastic supporters - but depending on affordability and value for money." Hang on - that doesn't sound so good.
But this sounds better from Thomson: "[The Salford move] is not something we have to be forced into. We want to do it. But just like any business, the harsh reality is we have needed to know how can we finance it?
"No Salford move would be almost unthinkable. We hope in the next week or two to have the final answer on whether it will go ahead."
So close to saying yes, Caroline! Hewlett tries to tease something more out: "This is not not going to happen, is it?"
Thomson resumes her hokey-kokey. She has really been dealt a duff hand here, timing wise: "We would love it to happen. But we don't yet know what the [licence fee settlement] is - the Trust has to know before it can take a decision [on Salford]. we want it to happen."
Thankfully, Thomson is far more specific about the benefits of the BBC Salford move for the local economy: 15,000 jobs, £200m a year gross revenue benefit, potential £1.5bn boost over a period.
Here's what's moving: children's, sport, future media, Radio 5 live, R&D. The BBC hopes the can be done in about 4 years - late 2010 or 2011, says Thomson.
But independent production companies and other creative industry types could start moving into the Media City development that's to be built around the new BBC base in Salford Quays before that, she adds.
In another Salford session, BBC children's controller Richard Deverell admitted there was a "big risk" of a "catastrophic loss of experience and talent" in moving his department from London, but said he still favoured the move because it would help change the culture of the BBC.
BBC Children's controller Deverell admitted that he expects between 30% and 50% of staff to make the move to Salford permanently. But he said he was "taking a guess" at the percentage of staff who would make the move and said he hoped it would be much higher in the short term to help make the transition.
But he said he still favoured the move north because it would help change the culture of the BBC.
"The physical move can be the catalyst for building a fundamentally different organisation that is fit for the internet age...It can be a lot more open and accountable and it's not just a case of lifting and shifting the department...If the BBC gives Salford the scale, leadership and autonomy it needs to succeed then it could be a really exciting place to be."
2.30pm: New session: The future of ITV: How important are the regions to its survival?
Alistair Moffat, former Scottish Television director of programmes, now a writer and independent producer, congratulates ITV director of television Simon Shaps for doing "a very good job of defending the indefensible".
So Simon said that regional programmes were in the "DNA of ITV" a few times (I counted three), Ali - is that so bad?
But Alistair is not finished: there's something "catastrophic" going on with ITV's regional programming policy. Come on, all Simon said was: "I'm not a natural quota kinda guy."
"ITV is going to lose that regional DNA," Moffat continues. It's indefensible - with collusion of a regulator. [Ofcom] allowed ITV to get rid of costs by riding itself of non news regional programmes. This was catastrophic.
"Historically, the keystone of creative bridge was regional programmes, which is where people cut their teeth. Soon there will only be regional news left. And five years from now regional news will be just a rip and read service."
Moffat added that the decline of ITV regional programming also raised issues about social inclusion, who gets to appear on screen.
"The end of non news regional programmes also means people are being removed from the TV screen and it's going to cause polarisation. Britain is going to be like America, where you see New York and LA and not much else."
Shaps doesn't think he and Ali going to agree on this one. You think, Simon?
"I started in [ITV] regional programmes and maybe an example of what you say. But now there are 1,000 routes into the industry. The industry has changed," he says.
"Do I see any sign the quality of network programmes is diminishing because of the loss of non news regional programmes in last year? No - far from it."
Ruth Pitt, another former ITV programming executive now working as a consultant and freelance executive producer, is also a critic of ITV's retreat from regional programmes.
"My big concern is will the talent be there if and when you need it [in the regions]. There's an incredible talent drain to London at the moment. I would argue that it's becoming very difficult to sustain production in Manchester and Leeds, let alone other regions," says Pitt.
Stuart Prebble, a former ITV chief executive who now runs Liberty Bell, the independent behind Grumpy Old Men, congratulates Simon "for turning up to defend the indefensible" - ie, ITV's regional programming policy.
"And it is indefensible. But it's not his fault. The culpable people are [former ITV chief executive] Charles Allen and [former Ofcom chief executive] Stephen Carter," Prebble adds.
Prebble blames Allen and Carter for cooking up the deal by which ITV was allowed to cut its non news regional programming hours - at a time of record profits.
He adds that there were independent producers around the country who used to make a nice living out of making ITV regional programmes that are now facing a bleak future.
Shaps responds that "the world is different, but not worse". He points to the fact that more than 50% of ITV's output comes from outside London - more than any of the other four main analogue networks. However, there is some quibbling about how much of this out of London production is made up of Coronation Street and Emmerdale.
He adds that the future for ITV regional output is likely to be in ITV Local, the broadband service that is being rolled out around the country.
