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The Guardian - UK
The Guardian - UK
Politics
Andrew Sparrow and Kevin Rawlinson

Jeremy Hunt puts focus on trust in major interview as Boris Johnson faces questions – as it happened

Closing summary

That’s all from us this evening. You can read my brief summary of the Jeremy Hunt interview here and the more detailed point-by-point takes in the subsequent posts. Or, if you prefer your news in the form of a single, perfectly crafted article, my colleague Jessica Elgot has produced one of those:

And here’s the earlier summary of the rest of the day’s developments.

Updated

And Hunt risks reigniting the row over his views on abortion, refusing to rule out backing moves to cut the legal time limit. He has previously been criticised for arguing in favour of the move at a time when the UK government was facing calls to give women in Northern Ireland the right to an abortion.

He says it’s a matter of public record that he voted for the time limit to be reduced from 24 weeks to 12 in 2008, but says he wouldn’t “seek to change the law” as prime minister. He does not, however, rule out backing someone else’s attempts to do so.

How I vote in any future private member’s bill would be a matter of conscience and I would have to see what that bill is before I make that decision.

Kuenssberg presses Hunt on how he will pay for the significant spending promises he has made. He says he wants to “cut taxes on ordinary people” but still spend vast sums on various social projects.

And the only way that you can afford all of those things is to fire up the British economy. And, as someone who set up their own business, I want to help thousands more young people set up their businesses. Let me just give you this one example, Laura: We’re growing at 1.5% a year at the moment. If we were growing at 3% a year, which is the American growth rate, we’d have an extra £20bn to spend on public services or tax cuts. All conservatives want to do both of those things and that’s why my first focus is to really grow the economy.

Kuenssberg points out that his corporation tax cut would “probably be about £13bn”, that he wants to spend an extra £15bn on defence and more money on caring for the elderly. She asks if the no-deal Brexit he’s willing to pursue would not end up costing the treasury yet more money. “Where are you going to get all that cash from? I mean would you borrow more than Philip Hammond has as Chancellor?”

No, I will follow a fiscal rule that is very clear that debt will continue to fall as a proportion of GDP over the cycle and we’ve costed these commitments very very carefully indeed.

Hunt adds that he wants to cut corporation tax to “Irish levels”, proposing a levy of 12.5%, rather than the current main rate, which is set at 19%.

When they made that move a number of years ago, their GDP per head was lower than ours. Now it’s nearly 50% higher than ours. So, this is the way that we fire up the economy: we create the jobs; we get the money for our precious public services like the NHS; transform our social care system; and find tax cuts. But there is no magic about this. If you don’t create the wealth you can’t spend it.

On social care, Hunt says he wants people to begin saving for it as they currently do for their retirement.

Well I negotiated a 10-year plan for the NHS and my next job if I’d stayed as health secretary was to a 10-year plan for the social care system. And I do think that councils need more money because I think we want to be a country where we know that as people get older they’re going to be properly looked after.

So I think there is a bit of public money. But it’s also about personal responsibility. I think we should be a country where people save for their social care costs, particularly those last few months, possibly years of their life when things can be very uncomfortable, very painful. Just In the same way they save for their pension. I think it should be something that people can opt out of but it should be an automatic thing.

Asked if he would cap social care costs – an issue that caused Theresa May significant damage at the 2017 general election – he says those who had saved would have their costs capped.

I’d do a deal. If you’re prepared to save responsibly during your life, then we will cut those costs. Do the right thing. We need to be a country which rewards people who do the right thing and I think if we do that, if you look at where we were in the post-war period where many people didn’t save for their pensions, we’ve created a society where the majority of people do save for their pensions. That’s the change we need for social care.

He does not elaborate on what would happen to those who had not saved, nor does he give any details about the amount that would need to be saved to benefit from the cut in costs, nor how much of a cut would be made.

Addressing the possibility of a no-deal Brexit, Hunt says that, while it’s not his preferred option, he would take it if he didn’t think a deal was possible by 31 October – even though he acknowledges it’d destroy people’s livelihoods.

I think that ‘31st of October come hell or high water’ is a fake deadline, because it’s more likely to trip us into a general election before we’ve delivered Brexit, and that would hand the keys to Jeremy Corbyn and then we’d have no Brexit at all.

But, in my case, how would I approach this: I think we’ll know very soon well before 31st October if there is a deal to be done along the basis I’ve said. If there isn’t and if no-deal is still on the table, I’ve been very clear: I will leave the European Union without a deal.

But I’m not going to do that if there’s a prospect of a better deal and, if I did it, it would be with a heavy heart because businesses up and down the country would face a lot of destruction. I think it’d be very bad for the union, with Scotland where I was at the weekend … so I would do it though. But as a last resort.

Interestingly, Hunt has given himself a significant amount of wiggle-room on the no-deal Brexit question, acknowledging that it may not be “on the table” when the 31 October deadline comes around.

Any Tory prime minister would be vulnerable to a no-confidence vote and some of the party’s own MPs have already indicated they would vote against it in such an instance if doing so would prevent a no-deal Brexit.

Updated

Asked about how he can bring together a negotiating team that includes Tories from across the UK, as well as the DUP, who Kuenssberg points out “fundamentally disagree with each other”, Hunt says:

Well, this is the big difference between the way I want to handle it and the way we handled it before because, yes, I think there is a deal that can unite all wings of the Conservative party and our friends in the DUP. But it’s got to be different to Theresa May’s deal. We can’t put forward a deal to Brussels unless they absolutely know that it could get through the British parliament.

Hunt is asked if his approach – like that of Johnson – is not simply “something that the European Union has said no to on multiple occasions. It’s what Theresa May tried and failed to do many times”.

Well, what Theresa May tried to do was a deal involving the backstop. I was in cabinet at the time and I supported her loyally but I never thought that was the right approach. What I’m talking about is a deal that doesn’t involve the backstop as it’s constituted at the moment, so it would be different.

Hunt is confronted about his claim he can renegotiate a deal the EU has repeatedly said is not open for renegotiation. He insists, as he has done before, that he’s being given a different message in conversations with European leaders.

When I talk to European leaders, what they say is: ‘look, it’s up to the UK to come up with a solution. But, of course, if you come up with a different solution, something that can work, when we’ll look at the whole package’.

Hunt’s claim is led some credence by the admission that Germany is ready to listen to ideas on how to solve the backstop problem. It’s perhaps worth pointing out, however, that what Germany did not say is that it’s willing to back down on the overall object of the backstop: preventing a hard border.

Asked what he would change to that end, Hunt acknowledges his plan is similar to that of his opponent.

It would be changing the backstop with some guarantees that we’re not going to have a hard border on the island of Ireland for completely obvious reasons. That approach is not too different to what Boris wants. I think it’ll be a technology-led solution.

What, exactly, that “technology-led solution” entails remains something of a mystery, however, as Hunt is short on details in the interview on how he actually sees it working. He says:

I think everyone thinks that, within the next decade, we aren’t going to have big border checks when it comes to goods because we’re going to do all these things online, just like the rest of our lives is transformed. And that discussion is what do you do if there’s a disagreement about what technology can do, so you need some mechanisms that resolve those disputes.

While Germany is ready to discuss options, the EU has rejected the idea that solely technological means can effectively replace border checks.

In the interview, however, Hunt says he thinks that very solution “is ready” to be put in place right away and that he believes the bloc has simply been unwilling thus far to discuss it because it wants to keep the UK in the customs union.

But I think they know now that won’t get through Parliament. So what I’m saying is let’s not be negative, let’s not be pessimistic. There is a way we can do this but what we have to do is send the right prime minister to Brussels to have those negotiations, have those open discussions and then I think there is a deal to be done.

Updated

In his interview with the BBC’s political editor, Laura Kuenssberg, Hunt returns again and again to the question of character, insisting he can be trusted to negotiate a deal with the EU.

Boris and I want to change that deal and the judgement is: who is the person we trust as PM to go to Brussels and bring back that deal? It’s about the personality of our PM. If you choose someone where there’s no trust, there’s going to be no negotiation, no deal. And, quite possibly, a general election, which could mean we have no Brexit either. If you choose someone that the other side will talk to who’s going to be very tough, there will least be in negotiation and I believe this deal to be done.

The significance of this approach – particularly at a time when his opponent has been facing so many questions about his own temperament and attention to detail – is difficult to overstate. Hunt, however, tries to play it down. Asked if he thinks Johnson would be an untrustworthy prime minister, he says:

I would never make those comments about a fellow candidate. I would serve Boris Johnson to the very best of my ability and make his prime ministership a success and I hope he’d do the same for me.

It’s pointed out that it’s somewhat implausible – in a two-horse race – to suggest he is not casting Johnson as untrustworthy. He responds:

No I’m saying I am trustworthy and I do believe that I can be trusted to deliver this deal.

He’s also asked how he can be trusted by the EU, given that he caused a major row when he compared the bloc to the Soviet Union last year. He says:

I am not afraid to speak uncomfortable truths to our partners in the EU. The point I made in that speech was it was totally inappropriate for an organisation that was set up to defend freedom to make it impossible for a member to leave. I will say tough things when I need to say tough things. But I’ll also preserve the relationship. I think I’ve also shown as foreign secretary that I can have good links with European countries. And that’s why I’m the right person to deliver Brexit.

Jeremy Hunt puts personality at the heart of Downing Street debate

In a week in which his opponent, Boris Johnson, has faced serious questions about his fitness for office, Jeremy Hunt has sought to place temperament and competence at the forefront of the debate in an interview with BBC that has just aired.

Here’s a brief summary of the lengthy exchange. I’ll put together more detailed posts on each soon:

  • Hunt seeks to portray himself as the candidate who could be trusted in negotiations with the European Union.
  • The foreign secretary insists he could renegotiate the deal – despite the EU’s consistent assertions it will not be reopened – and says he would have the DUP on the negotiating team.
  • He says the backstop would be removed because he would commit to not having a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. The solution would be technology-led, he says and, crucially, he insists this is ready to be implemented “now”. But he doesn’t give any specifics on what the plan actually entails in practice.
  • If he feels there’s no possibility of getting a deal done as 31 October approaches, he will leave with no deal f that option is “still on the table” at that point.
  • Moving beyond Brexit, he says people should be saving throughout their lives to cover some of the costs of their social care later. And he says he would take steps to cut costs for those people – and those people only.
  • And, potentially reigniting criticism of his views on abortion, he admitted he might support moves to cut the legal time limit but would not seek to change the law himself.

Afternoon summary

Updated

From the Mail’s John Stevens

McDonnell says he is pushing for Labour to back remain in second referendum

John McDonnell has said he is “arguing the case” for Labour to support remain if there is a second referendum on Brexit. Address the Society for Motor Manufacturers & Traders summit in London, the shadow chancellor said the Brexit situation was “a complete mess”. He said:

The situation is deteriorating rather than getting better. My big concern is that in the Tory leadership election both candidates have kept no-deal on the table. No-deal, as far as I’m concerned, I think it will be catastrophic.

It’s a bloody mess, it’s a complete mess. What we are trying to do now is seeing whether or not there is a route through all of this.

The discussion we are having in the Labour party now … is what would our attitude be if there is a referendum. I’ve said personally, I’d vote for remain, I campaigned for remain because I can’t see anything better than what we have got at the moment. I can see the consequences in terms of jobs and living standards.

He said Labour policy would “evolve over the next week” because further talks were taking place.

Asked later if Jeremy Corbyn would be campaigning for remain, McDonnell replied: “Well, I’m arguing the case”.

He also said Corbyn as a leader was “a consensus builder” and that he would arrive at a decision after the consultation was over in the next week or so.

John McDonnell speaking at the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) summit in London.
John McDonnell speaking at the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) summit in London. Photograph: Geoff Caddick/PA

Hunt says Johnson should debate him on TV tonight if he wants answer to his Brexit letter

And here is Jeremy Hunt’s reply to Boris Johnson. (See 4.42pm.)

Johnson firms up his commitment to delivering Brexit by 31 October and challenges Hunt to do the same

Ever since he launched his campaign for the Tory leadership Boris Johnson has been saying that he is committed to taking the UK out of the EU by 31 October. But there have been various hints along the way that this might be a promise that he does not expect to keep. At his campaign launch he refused to say he would resign if the UK did not leave by his deadline. A few days later, in an interview for the World at One, he said that it would be wrong “at this stage” to signal a willingness to delay again. At a meeting with business leaders, although Johnson said that he would go for a no-deal if necessary to meet the October deadline, some in the audience concluded he did not mean it. And last week the Evening Standard, edited by the former Tory chancellor George Osborne, said it was backing Johnson for party leader because it thought he would be more flexible on Brexit than any of the other candidates and because he had not “guaranteed” (it judged) Brexit by 31 October.

Well, now Johnson is firmly guaranteeing Brexit by 31 October. This morning in an interview he said it was a “do or die” commitment for him (see 2.11pm) and he has now released an open letter to Jeremy Hunt challenging him to commit, with Johnson, to ruling out any further extension.

  • Johnson firms up his commitment to delivering Brexit by 31 October and challenges Hunt to do the same.
  • He also challenges Hunt to join him in firmly ruling out a second referendum.
  • He says whether or not Brexit happens by 31 October is “the central issue” of the leadership campaign.

Why is Johnson doing this? Conservative party members are to a large extent hardline Brexiters (some 60% of them said they were going to vote for the Brexit party in the European elections, according to one survey) and this is about the one aspect of Brexit policy where Johnson’s policy is clearly different from Hunt’s, because he has refused to rule out a further extension. Otherwise their Brexit plans are very similar, although Hunt claims he is better placed to deliver it because EU leaders trust him, and Johnson claims he is better placed to deliver it because he voted leave in 2016.

Updated

Boris Johnson would exploit English nationalism to secure Tory election victory, says Gordon Brown

Gordon Brown’s speech this morning to the Fabian Society/Hope Not Hate is, like most Brown speeches, well worth a read. My colleague Ben Quinn has written it up here, but here are some lengthy extracts which deserved a wider audience. The full text does not seem to be available on the web.

  • Brown said Boris Johnson as prime minister would exploit English nationalism to secure a Tory election victory – putting the future of the United Kingdom at risk. He said:

Unless [Johnson] specifically rules it out, he will almost certainly – and under the influence of his election guru – play the ‘English card’, whipping up English nationalistic fervour against Scotland for English votes that put at risk the union itself.

If the precedent was set by David Cameron with his posters of the Labour leader in the pocket of the Scottish first minister, think of a similar Lynton Crosby campaign for Johnson – the claim that a Corbyn minority government, dependent on SNP votes, would grant another independence referendum to the SNP.

It is right to warn of the SNP’s obsession with independence. It is right, too, for us to remind Labour that as a party of the union it can never and must never make a backdoor deal with the SNP.

But of course, that’s not the point of the Crosby-Johnson exercise: their interest is not that the SNP or Labour have the best policies in the national interest: their aim is to whip up English nationalist fervour against Scotland simply to secure a Tory victory – and even at the cost of harming the union.

  • Brown said Johnson was opposed to the principles that underpin the union. He said:

Boris Johnson is not just defining his patriotism as being anti-European.

Look at what he has written on the union – not in the heat of the moment during a referendum, but continuously over 20 years. What his writing adds up to is a manifesto vehemently opposing the three constitutional pillars upon which today’s union is built: Scottish representation in the UK parliament, Scottish devolution and Scottish funding.

First, representation: he believes that that the number of Scottish MPs in the UK parliament should be substantially reduced.

Unable to understand careful care has to be taken in any union – whether the USA, Germany or Australia – when considering the representation of minorities, he continues to argue that Scotland is grossly overrepresented at Westminster.

When it comes to the devolution settlement, he would curtail the Scottish parliament making their own decisions in devolved areas such as universities and social care.

And he also opposes as “reckless” and “unfair to England” the financial linchpin of the union – the 40-year-old UK-wide settlement, the Barnett formula – which allocates resources by taking account of differing needs and changing demography across the four nations of the UK.

And if the Scots were in dire need he would have an answer: “I propose that we tell them to hop it.”

The SNP think of him as their best recruiting sergeant for independence. And, not surprisingly, few Scots believe the union is safe in his hands, fearing whether through ignorance, carelessness or malice he will be prepared to play fast and loose with the union when it suits his personal electoral needs.

Johnson, of course, would dispute this. Recently Nicola Sturgeon said he had jokingly floated the idea of offering Scotland full fiscal autonomy.

  • Brown said the United Kingdom needed more than just four nationalisms to survive.

But Scottish nationalism plus English nationalism plus Welsh nationalism plus Ulster nationalism does not add up to a United Kingdom. Four nations united only by nationalism will not sustain the United Kingdom. It means a house divided that cannot stand for long.

  • He criticised Nigel Farage’s style of nationalism.

If Britain is seen by us not just as traditionally tolerant and fair-minded but as outward looking, what do we find in the Farage brand of nationalism? A Britain that for him is glorying in isolation, viewing every institution with the word “European” or “global” in its title as “the enemy” or as hostile territory.

So where does this intolerant, divisive, inward-looking nationalism take us? It leads us exactly where divisive continental nationalisms led us in the past – to targeting and then blaming and demonising immigrants, foreigners and anyone who stands in the Farage way – and, of course, using language designed to induce uncertainty, fear and discord, rebutting any criticisms and countering any arguments with the now familiar trademark accusations of “betrayal”.

Brown argued for an alternative form of patriotism.

You can love your country without being made to feel you ever have to hate your neighbour.

  • He claimed the SNP were now pushing for a more extreme form of independence than in 2014.

In the 2014 Scottish referendum the nationalists proposed leaving the UK political union but said they wanted to keep the UK pound and to stay inside the UK custom union and the UK single market.

Now they are committed to a wholly separate Scottish pound and to abandon, in a quiet, almost furtive way the UK customs union and single market which has given us tariff-free, tension-free trade across the four nations for 300 years and prevented what now seems inevitable under independence: a hard border at Hadrian’s Wall separating Scotland and England and life reduced to an unending battle between us and them.

This is an ingenious argument, but not a wholly fair one. In 2014 the Scottish government did not have a straightforward currency policy, because the UK parties rejected its call for a currency union, and this became a big problem for the yes campaign. Now the SNP has agreed that Scotland should have its own currency as soon as possible after independence, but the notion of a “hard border at Hadrian’s Wall” is Brown spin.

  • He said citizens’ assemblies could help build a more informed democracy.

Even now there may be a way to reset our relationships with the world: recognising that trust has broken down because, in our representative democracies, political parties are no longer performing their traditional role of assembling and then aggregating public opinion to build an informed consensus.

And in their place, Facebook, Twitter and our social media give a spurious impression of direct democracy as if leaders and led are communicating with each other on equal terms. However, at its best the internet promotes a shouting match without an umpire and, at worst, an echo chamber isolating and reverberating the most extremist of views.

So we should attempt to build a more informed democracy through region-by-region public hearings – what in Ireland were called citizens’ assemblies – where we encourage an honest debate on all the specific options for our future.

Gordon Brown
Gordon Brown Photograph: Murdo MacLeod/The Guardian

Updated

Here is the video of Boris Johnson talking about his secret model bus-making habit.

Judging by social media, some people seem to find this account of how Johnson relaxes even less plausible than his Brexit plan …

Updated

At Foreign Office questions in the Commons this morning Emily Thornberry, the shadow foreign secretary, cracked a joke about Boris Johnson’s late-night row with his girlfriend on Thursday last week. Addressing Jeremy Hunt, she said:

It gives me an opportunity to congratulate the foreign secretary directly, not just for being in the final two, getting into the final two, but also being the only candidate who has the police outside his house for the right reasons.

(Being foreign secretary is one of the few cabinet jobs that comes with 24-hour police protection.)

Boris Johnson is campaigning this afternoon in Surrey, according to his team.

Boris Johnson poses with visitors during a walkabout at Wisley garden centre in Surrey.
Boris Johnson poses with visitors during a walkabout at Wisley garden centre in Surrey. Photograph: Peter Nicholls/Reuters

Updated

These are from the Daily Mirror’s Pippa Crerar and PoliticsHome’s Kevin Schofield on today’s shadow cabinet meeting.

Boris Johnson's LBC/TalkRadio interviews - Summary and analysis

Here are the main points from Boris Johnson’s two radio appearances this morning, on LBC and on TalkRadio.

  • Johnson, the favourite in the Tory leadership contest, downgraded his commitment to cutting taxes for the wealthy, saying that he would prioritise tax cuts that would help the poor. (See 11.38am.) But he did not disavow the plan to lift the rate at which people start paying the higher rate of tax to £80,000, a policy that have proved hugely controversial because it would give £9bn to people who are mostly in the richest 10%.
Distributional impact assessment of Boris Johnson proposed tax cut for the wealthy
Distributional impact assessment of Boris Johnson proposed tax cut for the wealthy Photograph: IFS
  • He described delivering Brexit by 31 October as a “do or die” commitment. He told TalkRadio the UK would leave by then under his premiership “come what may”. When he was asked if that meant “do or die”, Johnson replied: “Do or die. Come what may.” He also came closer than ever before to saying he would resign if he did not deliver Brexit by the end of October. At his official campaign launch two weeks ago he notably dodged the question when asked if he would resign if the UK were still in the EU by November. But today, when asked that question, he replied:

I think that it follows from everything that I’ve said, that I think politics is at a crossroads in this country.

  • He claimed government “defeatism” under Theresa May had been partly to blame for the UK not achieving Brexit. Claiming that his own optimism about Brexit would help to secure a deal, he said:

I think a bit of positive energy would help, frankly. I’ve never seen such morosity and gloom from a government. For three years we’ve been sitting around wrapped in defeatism telling the British public that they can’t do this or that. It is pathetic, it’s absolutely pathetic.

  • He said that he wanted to agree a new withdrawal agreement with the EU. He said that the current withdrawal agreement would need to go, but that he would want to keep some aspects of it. When asked if that meant he would be pushing for changes to the withdrawal agreement text, and not just changes to the political declaration (the accompanying text, covering the future relationship), Johnson said:

[We need] more than a change. It’s got to be, you know, we need a new withdrawal agreement. If we’re going to go out on the basis of a withdrawal agreement.

The EU has repeatedly said it will not renegotiate the withdrawal agreement. Donald Tusk, the president of the European council, explained its position for the umpteenth time after last week’s EU summit when he said:

We are open for talks when it comes to the declaration on the future UK-EU relations if the position of the United Kingdom were to evolve, but the withdrawal agreement is not open for renegotiation.

Well, he’s right in the sense that Gatt article 24 paragraph males it perfectly clear that two countries that are in the process of beginning a free trade agreement may protract their existing arrangements until such time as they have completed any free trade agreement. And that’s a very hopeful prospect. That is the way forward ...

Where Mark is right is saying that implies mutuality, there has to be agreement on both sides.

Johnson also admitted there had been “some confusion” about article 24. When it was put to him that Carney had said article 24 was not an option for the UK, he replied: “He’s wrong in thinking it is not an option. It is certainly an option.” But then Johnson admitted he did not know if that is what Carney had said:

I don’t know whether [Carney] said it’s not an option. People are wrong if they say it is not an option ...

What you can’t do is unilaterally [have] a Gatt 24 solution. But what you could do is agree with our EU friends and partners to go forwards together on that basis.

Carney has not said that article 24 would not be an option in any circumstances. He has just said it would not be an option if the UK and the EU were resigned to no-deal. Henry Newman, director of the Open Europe thinktank, says Johnson’s article 24 concession is important.

But in an interesting Twitter thread starting here, Ed Conway, Sky’s economics editor, suggests that article 24 argument is like the £350m per week claim used during the EU referendum - a bogus assertion that receives plenty of media coverage that benefits the Brexiter cause, even while being refuted by fact-checking journalists.

  • Johnson appeared to criticise Mark Carney’s understanding of the article 24 process - before admitting Carney might not have said what he implied he did.
  • Johnson claimed that he would have a better chance of getting a Brexit deal through parliament than Theresa May because both main parties are terrified of what might happen to them if Brexit does not happen. Asked on LBC why he could succeed where May failed, he said:

Politics has totally changed since March 29. We are staring down the barrel of defeat. Look at what happened in the European elections, in the council elections. My party, the Conservative party, was on 9% in the European elections. Every Tory MP understands that. And it is not as though Labour are doing that much better. They’ve got the Liberal Democrats ahead of them ... So the challenge for us all in parliament is to get this thing done.

But in his answer Johnson is assuming Conservative and Labour MPs both see the failure to deliver Brexit as an existential threat. This ignores the fact that many Labour MPs would be delighted to see Brexit abandoned, and while most Tory MPs accept the need for Brexit to happen, there is a profound split between those who think no-deal is acceptable and those who don’t.

  • Johnson revived his threat to without money from the EU as a means of getting a deal - although he reframed this as “creative ambiguity”. Explaining what he would do, he told LBC:

Then what you’ve got to do is look at the money, which is at the high end of [the EU’s] expectations, £39bn. And I think we need a bit of creative ambiguity about when and how much of that money is going to be paid, and what kind of deal it would be payable for.

This seems a slightly milder way of expressing a threat he first raised in a Sunday Times interview earlier this month.

  • He criticised Jeremy Hunt, his rival, as someone who would “simply kick the can down the road” on Brexit. He told LBC:

There is one candidate standing in this contest who represents a fresh way of actually getting us out of the mire and who will deliver Brexit on October the 31st. I’m afraid the other candidate who is standing would simply kick the can down the road.

  • He described claims that that he has been taking advice from Steve Bannon, the far-right former Trump aide, as “codswallop”. Referring to an Observer story about this, Johnson said:

This is the biggest load of codswallop I have ever heard.

Asked if he and Bannon exchange text messages regularly, he replied: “Absolutely not.” he went on:

I have met Mr Bannon in the White House when he was chief of staff to the president as you would expect, in the course of my duties as foreign secretary ...

It is perfectly true that when the president came to this country last year Steve Bannon texted me on a couple of occasions trying to fix a meeting. I texted back to say that meeting was not possible.

That was the “sum total” of their exchanges, he said. But he went on:

And yet this is turned by people who wish to stop me from achieving what I want to achieve into some crazy kind of alt-right conspiracy involving me and Steve Bannon. Anybody who looks at my record knows that I’m a progressive, modern Conservative.

The problem with Johnson’s attempt to blame the Observer is that it is Bannon himself who has been claiming that he influenced what Johnson said in the speech he gave last year after he resigned from cabinet. Johnson’s answer was striking because it showed just how horrified he is by association with the extreme right - even though in his new role as a hardline Brexiter he is picking up support from Tories who were never fans of the liberal, metropolitan conservatism he used to champion earlier in his career.

  • Johnson said he backed calls for the recruitment of an extra 20,000 police officers - although he refused to say when they would be hired if he were PM.
  • He said two principles should apply to reform of adult social care: that no one should have to face the threat of losing their home to pay for care; and that everyone should have dignity in old age.
Boris Johnson on LBC this morning.
Boris Johnson on LBC this morning. Photograph: PA

Updated

Iain Duncan Smith, the former Conservative leader and arch-Brexiter, has been appointed chair of the Boris Johnson campaign, it has just announced.

Germany 'ready to talk' to avoid no-deal Brexit, says ambassador

Germany will fight to the last hour to prevent the UK crashing out of the EU without a deal and is willing to hear any fresh ideas for the Irish border backstop, the country’s ambassador to the UK has said.

Speaking at the car manufacturers summit in London, Peter Wittig said Germany cherished its relationship with the UK and was ready to talk about solutions the new prime minister might have over the Irish border.

My country is ready to talk, and chancellor [Angela Merkel] once said she would be willing to talk to the last hour not to have a no-deal scenario.

It’s a mindset. We are not giving up on achieving an orderly Brexit.

Germany has been a very pragmatic voice in this whole tortuous Brexit process and we will continue to be that.

Even if we have a short window while the new prime minister is in place, we will welcome any idea how to solve that famous backstop issue and we will be willing to work towards a negotiated deal which is long term the only viable and sensible option for Europe.

Asked later if Germany would support another extension in the Brexit process, Wittig said:

We can’t be more specific. It is now the turn of the UK government to come up with the plan and talk to us [the EU].

Our mindset is to explore all pathways to come to a negotiated deal.

Angela Merkel
Angela Merkel Photograph: Markus Schreiber/AP

Updated

The Conservative party has just sent out this press release saying that the winner of the leadership contest will be announced on Tuesday 23 July. It says:

Following the first membership hustings in Birmingham on Saturday, there will be 15 more taking place across every region and nation of the UK over the next four weeks.

In addition, a digital hustings will be held on Wednesday 26 June. This will be open to questions from the public ensuring non-members get the opportunity to put questions to the future leader of the Conservative party. The digital hustings will be hosted by freelance journalist Hannah Vaughan Jones and will be live-streamed on the Conservative party’s Facebook and Twitter accounts.

Conservative party members should receive postal ballots between 6 and 8 July. This ballot will close at 5pm on Monday 22 July. The Rt Hon Dame Cheryl Gillan DBE MP and Charles Walker OBE MP will be the returning officers for the membership vote. The announcement of the next leader of the Conservative party will be made on Tuesday 23 July. This process has been agreed with both candidates.

Updated

Jeremy Hunt, Boris Johnson’s rival in the Tory leadership contests, says he will take questions from people on Twitter this evening as a substitute for the debate that Sky News was planning to hold but which got cancelled because Johnson would not attend.

The most unusual revelation from the two Boris Johnson interviews we’ve had this morning came in the TalkRadio one, where Ross Kempsell asked Johnson what he did to relax. Johnson said that he painted, and that he liked making models of buses. He explained:

I get old wooden crates … and I paint them and they have to contain two wine bottles. And it will have a dividing thing. And I turn it into a bus and … I paint the passengers enjoying themselves.

Updated

Boris Johnson says leaving EU by 31 October a 'do or die' commitment

Boris Johnson has also given an interview to TalkRadio in which he said getting Britain out of the EU by 31 October was a “do or die, come what may” commitment for him.

A full summary of everything in the LBC and TalkRadio interviews is coming soon.

Here is Jeremy Corbyn on Boris Johnson’s tax policies.

Johnson downgrades tax cuts for wealthy pledge by saying helping poor should come first

Today the Institute for Fiscal Studies has published a report saying that Boris Johnson’s promise to cut taxes for millions of higher earners would cost £9bn and benefit the richest 10% of households in Britain most. This was a promise that Johnson first unveiled in his Daily Telegraph column, which was written up by the paper as a front-page splash. Johnson has also proposed raising the threshold for paying national insurance – although, up to now, his campaign has not stressed this plan as much, and he has not said what the new threshold would be. Dominic Raab, the former Brexit secretary who was also a leadership contender before being eliminated in the MPs’ ballot, said the threshold should rise to £12,500, and Johnson has not ruled this out as a target. The IFS says this policy would cost at least £11bn.

The full IFS report is here (pdf), and its summary is here.

When Boris Johnson was asked in his LBC interview about the IFS saying his tax plans would cost up to £20bn, Johnson said he did not accept the figures. He replied:

I don’t recognise those figures. Those aren’t the figures that I have seen.

Then he went on to claim that tax cuts for the poor would take priority over tax cuts for the wealthy if he were prime minister. He said:

We will bring forward a tax proposal, a package, that actually begins by lifting thresholds for those on lowest pay.

I just remind you that when I was mayor … we massively expanded the London living wage. We put millions of pounds in the pockets of some of the poorest families in our cities, and we brought the city together. And what I want to do as prime minister, if I’m lucky enough to serve, is to bring the whole of the country together.

And if you look at what happened in London over those two terms, it was the poorest families who saw the biggest increases in life expectancy and in their prosperity. And that is what we need to do.

And we can do it through roughly the same approach, which is a big, broad-minded Conservative agenda of investing in education, in infrastructure and technology to close the gaps in society.

  • Johnson claimed tax cuts for the poor would take priority over tax cuts for the wealthy if he were PM.
  • He claimed that London became more equal in the years he was mayor (from 2008 to 2016) because the poorest families gained most proportionally.

I will ask Johnson’s campaign what data they have to back up the claim that London became more equal during his mayoralty. The London mayor has very few powers that have a direct impact on household income, and so what happened to income inequality in the capital while he was in charge probably had very little to do with him anyway. But his mayoralty coincided with the financial crash, which saw salaries in the City shrink as bankers lost their bonuses, and sometimes their jobs, and so the figures may well show a reduction in inequality.

But Johnson is wrong to imply that lifting national insurance thresholds mainly benefits the lowest paid. It does help the lowest paid, unlike his plan to increase the higher rate tax threshold, but it helps the rich more. As the IFS report (pdf) says, “the largest proportional gains [from this policy] go to those in the middle to upper part of the income distribution.”

Impact assessment of lifting NICs threshold
Impact assessment of lifting NICs threshold Photograph: IFS

Updated

Boris Johnson's LBC phone-in - Verdict from Twitter commentariat

This is what political journalists and commentators are saying about the Boris Johnson LBC phone-in.

From Business Insider’s Adam Bienkov

From LBC’s Matthew Thompson

From Sky’s Adam Boulton

From my colleague Peter Walker

From my colleague John Crace

From the Mail on Sunday’s Dan Hodges

From HuffPost’s Paul Waugh

From my colleague Jessica Elgot

From the Economist’s Anne McElvoy

The Mirror’s Dan Bloom has a transcript of the extract from the phone-in where Boris Johnson was refusing to answer questions about the row with his girlfriend, Carrie Symonds, and the photo released to the media intended to show that they were reconciled.

Britain’s most senior police officer, Cressida Dick, has defended the neighbours of Boris Johnson’s partner after they recorded the couple having a row and reported it to the police, my colleague Matthew Weaver reports.

The phone-in over-ran by about five minutes.

In the closing section, Johnson criticised Jeremy Hunt, claiming that on Brexit Hunt’s policy just amounted to kicking the can down the road.

He also confirmed that in the past he had tried class A drugs.

And that’s it.

I’ll post reaction and a summary shortly.

Johnson dismisses reports that he has taken advice from Steve Bannon as 'codswallop'

Q: Is it true you have taken advice from Steve Bannon, the far-right former Trump adviser?

Johnson describes this story as “codswallop”.

He says when Bannon came to the UK last year, he texted a couple of times to try to arrange a meeting. But Johnson did not agree to a meeting.

Johnson dismisses the suggestion that Bannon was giving him advice on what to do. He says he is a “progressive, modern Conservative”.

  • Johnson dismisses reports that he has taken advice from Steve Bannon as “codswallop”.

Johnson rejects IFS critique of his plan to cut income tax for higher earners

Q: What do you say about the Institute for Fiscal Studies analysis of the cost of your tax plan?

Johnson says he does not recognise the IFS figures.

He says his priority would be lifting the national insurance threshold. This would help the lower paid, he suggests.

  • Johnson refuses to accept the IFS critique of his tax plan.
  • He appears to downgrade his commitment to raising the threshold for paying the higher rate of tax, saying his priority instead would be to lift the national insurance threshold.

Q: Can you promise that some of the Brexit bonus money going to the NHS goes to dementia services?

Johnson says “of course” he stands by the claim Brexit will release £350m a week for the NHS.

He says he accepts that there should be more dementia funding.

But there needs to be national consensus about how to do it.

He says the Tory 2017 election manifesto proposal on social care was a “disaster”. He said there was not time to explain it properly.

He says two principles should apply.

First, no one should face the threat of losing their home.

Second, everyone should have dignity in old age.

Q: Should LGBT education continue in schools?

Johnson says people should be able to love who they want. He says he does not approve of children being taken out of school to miss these lessons.

Johnson is now defending his previous record.

He says the Garden Bridge idea was a good one, and could have gone ahead with private funding.

And he says the Iranians are to blame for Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe’s detention. Criticising him lets them off the hook, he suggests.

Johnson restates claim that article 24 could be used to allow tariff-free UK-EU trade after Brexit

Johnson is now on Brexit.

He says “creative ambiguity” is needed over when the UK will pay the £39bn to the EU.

On the backstop, he says there is no need for a hard border in Ireland. He says the Alternative Arrangements Commission report out yesterday on alternatives to this was “brilliant”.

Q: And you think Ireland will accept this?

Yes, says Johnson.

Q: And how will the UK and Ireland trade in the event of a no-deal Brexit. Won’t the GATT rules apply?

Johnson says article 24 would allow both sides to continue with existing prospects.

Q: Mark Carney, the governor of the Bank of England, says that is wrong.

Johnson says Carney was right to say that this would have to be mutually agreed.

It is right to say that the UK cannot unilaterally go for this.

But it would be an option if both sides agreed, he says.

He says it would be “very bizarre” if the EU decided to impose tariffs. It would be a return to the Napoleonic system.

  • Johnson insists article 24 of GATT could be used to allow the UK and the EU to continue tariff-free trade after Brexit. He suggests Mark Carney’s objections to this have been over-interpreted.

Johnson said he backed Sajid Javid’s plan to hire 20,000 more police officers. But he refused to set a timetable for when they might arrive.

  • Johnson backs proposal to hire 20,000 more police officers.

Johnson refuses to deny supplying media with dated photograph to suggest he is reconciled with girlfriend

Nick Ferrari says Boris Johnson has been described as a coward for not doing interviews.

Q: Are you a coward?

Johnson says he has a maxim in life, and in politics, nicked from Ronald Reagon, never speak ill of a fellow Conservative. He will not reply to attacks like this, he says.

  • Johnson refuses to respond to Jeremy Hunt’s claim he is a coward.

He says both main parties are losing votes. Unless they deliver Brexit, “our generation will not be forgiven.”

Q: Why have you dodged tonight’s debate [the planned Sky one]?

Johnson says he is doing 16 hustings, and he has done some with Jeremy Hunt already.

Q: You are an experienced journalist and editor. Are you saying your private life is not of interest?

“Of course things may be of interest,” he says. He understands that.

  • Johnson accepts his private life is of interest to the media.

Q: As Guardian editor, would you have run that story.

Johnson says he won’t comment “on the integrity or discretion of the editor of the Guardian”.

He says, as soon as he answers questions like this, he brings his family into the limelight.

  • He refuses to criticise the Guardian for running the story about his row with his girlfriend which was so loud it led to neighbours calling the police.

Q: So why the picture today?

Johnson tries to change the subject. “The longer we spend on things ...”

He refuses to say where the picture came from.

He claims not to have seen most of today’s front pages.

Q: But you knew the picture was being put out there?

Johnson says there are all sorts of pictures of him on the internet that pop up from time to time.

Q: Did you know this picture was out there?

Johnson says he knew that picture was out there.

Q: So when was it taken?

Johnson refuses to say.

Q: It is not recent, is it?

Johnson says this conversation is “descending into farce”.

Q: This is an old picture, isn’t it?

Johnson refuses to say. But he says he no longer has his hair cut by the “Turkish chap”.

Q: So this is at least six weeks old?

Johnson refuses to comment.

  • Johnson refuses to deny that his team supplied a picture of himself and his girlfriend, Carrie Symonds, to the media that was intended to show they were reconciled following their row on Thursday night. The Evening Standard put the picture on its front page yesterday, saying that it was taken after the row and that it was intended to quash reports Johnson and Symonds were close to breaking up. But today Johnson refused to deny claims the photograph was several weeks old.

Updated

Boris Johnson's LBC phone-in

Boris Johnson is about to start a half-hour LBC phone-in, hosted by Nick Ferrari.

Gordon Brown, the Labour former prime minister, has been giving a speech this morning saying that, if Boris Johnson were to become prime minister, the United Kingdom could break up. He has written a preview of what he will be saying in the Daily Mail, and I will cover more from the speech later.

After weeks of maintaining a low profile, Boris Johnson, the clear favourite in the Tory leadership contest, is now starting to speak out a bit more and last night he gave a major interview to the BBC’s political editor, Laura Kuenssberg. You can read our write-up here, the BBC’s write-up here, and the full transcript here. And you can watch the whole interview here. I will be writing more about it later, as well as covering what Johnson says in his LBC phone-in at 9.30am.

This morning Amber Rudd, the work and pensions secretary and a Jeremy Hunt supporter, told the Today programme that Johnson had not done enough to persuade people he had a convincing plan to deliver Brexit. She said:

This is an incredibly difficult situation and Boris needs to explain how he will deal with both sides of the Conservative party that have concerns and try and break the impasse with the European Union. Enthusiasm and optimism is not sufficient.

My colleague Peter Walker has more on Rudd’s interview here.

Here is the agenda for the day.

9.30am: Boris Johnson takes part in an LBC phone-in.

9.30am: Theresa May chairs cabinet.

9.45am: Jeremy Corbyn chairs shadow cabinet.

10.30am: ITV and Jeremy Kyle Show executives give evidence to the Commons culture committee about reality TV.

12.50pm: Liam Fox, the international trade secretary, gives a speech at the Centre for Policy Studies’ annual Margaret Thatcher conference.

2.30pm: Simon Stevens, head of NHS England, Stephen Hammond, a health minister, and Sir Chris Wormald, permanent secretary at the Department of Health, give evidnce to the Commons health committee.

As usual, I will be covering breaking political news as it happens, as well as bringing you the best reaction, comment and analysis from the web, although I will be focusing mostly on the Tory leadership contest. I plan to publish a summary at lunchtime, and another when I wrap up.

You can read all the latest Guardian politics articles here. Here is the Politico Europe roundup of this morning’s political news. And here is the PoliticsHome list of today’s top 10 must-reads.

If you want to follow me or contact me on Twitter, I’m on @AndrewSparrow.

I try to monitor the comments below the line (BTL) but it is impossible to read them all. If you have a direct question, do include “Andrew” in it somewhere and I’m more likely to find it. I do try to answer questions, and if they are of general interest, I will post the question and reply above the line (ATL), although I can’t promise to do this for everyone.

If you want to attract my attention quickly, it is probably better to use Twitter.

Updated

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