The New South Wales police commissioner has defended his decision to call for a YouTube clip to be taken down during the Sydney siege but admitted that he knew its removal could aggravate the hostage situation within the Lindt cafe.
Andrew Scipione took the witness stand at the long-running coronial inquest into the Sydney siege for the first time on Wednesday afternoon, after Jeff Loy, the acting deputy commissioner, and Catherine Burn, the deputy commissioner, gave evidence earlier this week.
All three officers have denied holding operational roles during the standoff in Martin Place. Whether or not their action or inaction exacerbated its final moments is the focus of this fourth and final stage of the inquest into the deaths of the gunman, Man Haron Monis, and two hostages, Katrina Dawson and Tori Johnson.
An email sent by Scipione about the removal of a video that was posted to YouTube from within the Lindt cafe was the subject of sustained cross-examination from Jeremy Gormly SC, the counsel assisting the inquest.
Monis forced hostage Marcia Mikhael to make and post the clip, which showed her reciting his demands and expressed criticism of the police response.
Scipione forwarded a link to the clip to Loy, assistant commissioner Mark Jenkins and a police public affairs officer just before midnight on 15 December.
“Let’s move to pull it down Asap,” he wrote. “I’ll leave it with you and others.”
Scipione defended his sending the email to Gormly, stating that his intention was to flag the existence of the clip with Loy, who was in charge of the police response at the time, “to do with it what he thought he needed to”.
He said frustration on the part of the hostages was clear in the clip and that it was degrading for Mikhael have been forced to communicate Monis’ demands.
For much of the inquest, police have been questioned about their contain-and-negotiate strategy during the siege.
Throughout the harrowing ordeal, no direct contact was made with Monis, the inquest has heard.
Negotiations were happening through hostages, but Scipione said direct contact would have been “much preferred, I’m sure”.
Scipione said he had considered the likelihood that the video’s removal from YouTube would aggravate the hostage situation within the Lindt cafe but insisted to Gormly that it was not his intention for the email to be construed as an order.
“If there was an impact that was not manageable from their perspective … if it was not something they were prepared to do, I’m sure that would have been very, very clear to me,” he said.
“They clearly understood that they had operational command and I didn’t.”
He said his concern was that, if the clip were to remain on YouTube, it risked prompting “retaliation and reprisals” from third parties: “We knew that that was starting to rise its head at that time.”
He agreed that its removal risked causing increased tension within the cafe but he insisted that the final call on the clip rested with Loy, Jenkins and their “good judgment and discernment”.
Scipione rejected Gormly’s suggestion that his email was “as close to a direction as one could get”.
“When I said, as I’ve made clear, that meant ‘the decision’s yours’. I can’t convey it to you in any other way.”
He said criticism of the police “doing nothing” that Mikhael expressed in the video “absolutely” did not figure into his desire for it to be pulled down.
“Police are criticised every day. That’s part of our business. That was absolutely not an issue at the time, since that time, at any time – not an issue.”
In response to Gormly’s suggestion that managing public perceptions of police was part of his role, he replied: “Not in the middle of an event like this.”
Loy had earlier told the inquest that he had not construed the email as a directive.
“The one thing that was driving me was the safe release of every single person from that stronghold,” Scipione said.
He was also quizzed about a telephone call he made to Jenkins at 10.57pm on 15 December, some three hours before the siege reached its deadly conclusion.
A scribe alongside Jenkins on the night had noted from their conversation that “COP [Commissioner of Police]” had said that a “DA” – or deliberate action plan, under which police would have stormed the cafe at a time of their choosing – was only to “occur as last resort”.
Scipione said he called to check on Jenkins’ welfare soon after the commander took charge and delivered a briefing to the state crisis centre but insisted the words noted by the scribe were spoken by Jenkins, not him.
“I had no reason to make that recommendation to him. It’s not an area where I would in any way play a role.
“I can assure you I know I would not be asking or telling Mr Jenkins or any other commander that a DA was a last resort, simply because that’s not my responsibility, that’s not my role.”
The commissioner said the one thing “consuming” him was the safe release of all hostages: “Clearly that was the driving influence in every decision I was making.”
Scipione was excused later on Wednesday afternoon.
The inquest has now finished hearing evidence but will resume for a “catch-up day” in three weeks’ time on 7 September.
