Spike Lee surrounds himself with the greats, even in his day-to-day life. As the legendary filmmaker Zooms in from a cozy office space, I can see that every inch of every wall is covered in black-and-white photos of music legends. Portraits of Frank Sinatra, jazz pianist Hazel Scott, and James Brown stare me down as Lee, back turned, oversees the arrangement of two other pieces: the first, a vintage poster of High and Low, and the second, an image of its director, Akira Kurosawa, signed “To dear Spike” in textured white paint.
It’s not until both are placed just-so, perfectly situated in frame, that Lee turns to make a bit of small talk — but even before he says a word, this scene tells me more than anything immediately on his mind. Like any filmmaker the world recognizes by name, Lee’s reputation precedes him. He’s a writer and director who knows what he likes, and has no problem discussing what he doesn’t. He’s no longer the young upstart challenging the status quo, but he’s still very much a disrupter, if only because he’s holding onto tradition as the industry strives to replace it.
Lee’s latest film, a “reimagining” of Kurosawa’s High and Low, reunites him with his most constant collaborator (and one of Hollywood’s last “classic” movie stars), Denzel Washington. Washington’s prickly, enigmatic music mogul, David King, serves as a kind of sounding board for issues Lee has grappled with in his decades as a director — and it’s no different in our interview. At multiple points, Lee practically lets these portraits speak for him. When I ask about his feelings on generative AI, he points to Sinatra: “You’re telling me they made a machine that can sing better than Ol’ Blue Eyes? F*ck no!”
Lee generates the winking kind of chaos you’d expect from the director of Do the Right Thing and Bamboozled (and the creator of some great red carpet memes). Even if Highest 2 Lowest is a tad glossier and more restrained than those early films, it still seethes with righteous indignation. It’s every bit a parable about the struggle between old and new school, and, for Lee, it’s a crucial homage to Kurosawa.
Ahead of Highest 2 Lowest’s premiere on Apple TV+, Lee sits down with Inverse to discuss Kurosawa’s influence, his fifth team-up with Washington, and the pitfalls of AI.
This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.
“[AI is] a shortcut. It’s a shortcut and you’re cheating yourself.”
Highest 2 Lowest is about so many things, but I was really intrigued by—
I’ve never done a film that’s about one thing, my sister.
Yeah, and you shouldn’t. But I really loved the thread of Denzel’s character striving to recover his creative spark. I’m curious if you’d ever felt that kind of disconnect in your life.
No, he’s older than me by two years. [Laughs.] But again, thank you for the question. That’s a very good question. I’m not trying to duck up, but I’ve been blessed. For me it’s been a question of getting the money for a film, but… the love for film... I’ve never lost that. Not saying it is going to happen in the future, but as yet it has not happened.
There are other moments where it feels like you’re speaking through David King, particularly when it comes to condemning AI. Is that something that’s been weighing on you?
I wasn’t condemning AI across the board. In the film where David King [shares how he] feels about art, he’s saying, “A machine’s not a heart, a soul.” So definitely in that moment, yeah, that’s me talking — but it’s not about other uses of AI.
Another thing which I thought about, being a tenured professor of film: What about people writing their thesis papers, term papers, even homework in elementary school? That is, in my opinion — I don’t want to sound like an old fuddy-duddy — but that is not good. It’s a shortcut. It’s a shortcut and you’re cheating yourself.
Now some scientists might say AI could be developed as great as Leonard Bernstein. I’m looking at the wall right here. Aaron Copland, Miles Davis, Coltrane, Nat King Cole, Sammy Davis Jr., Nina Simone... I don’t believe it. It’s a machine. If you have ears, you could hear the heartbeat. You could hear the soul, the love, the pain, the anguish. A machine? Two words, “Nah, son.”
[He points to a portrait of Frank Sinatra.] You’re telling me they made a machine that can sing better than Ol’ Blue Eyes? F*ck no! F*ck no. Hold on, hold on, hold on. [He stands to take a portrait off the wall.] You’re telling a machine can sing like Mahalia Jackson? F*ck no. Oh, my God. You’re telling me a machine can sing like Billie Holiday? F*ck no! Who else I got?
I got you fired up.
I don’t want to go to all the things hanging on the wall. You’re on a schedule.
“A little chance just to work with Denzel again, that was it.”
Sticking with music, I’m curious about the score for the film. In the first half of Highest 2 Lowest, there are times it plays through entire scenes of dialogue, almost at the same volume.
You’re telling me you couldn’t hear the dialogue. All right.
[Laughs.] No, I could. But it did feel on the same level as the music.
I understand. You’re not the first one to say, “Spike, the music’s too loud.” That’s something I’ve been accused of. You’re not the first one, my sister. But I think that the human brain is capable of understanding dialogue and music at the same time.
That’s the way you like it.
I mean, we all different — I’m not deaf though, but I think that we find… because I always have a lot of music, we find the right balance. I have great mixers, so we find the balance.
I want to go back now to when the project first came to you. It makes a lot of sense that this story has been reinterpreted from the point of view of a music mogul, given how instrumental music has been to your work.
Oh, you peeped that. Thank you very much.
But I understand that was already in the script when you got it?
The script had gone around for many years, and God intervened and put in Denzel’s hands. He read it and thought of me automatically and he called me up. I didn’t even recognize the phone number of the person. I did not know 19 years had elapsed between this film and [Lee’s last collaboration with Washington] Inside Man; time flies. So the film takes place in New York, he thought of me automatically and he says, “Spike, I’m going to send this to you FedEx.” And I said, “Bet.” And before I could hang up the phone, I knew I was doing it. I didn’t even know what it was, but a little chance just to work with Denzel again, that was it.
It does feel like divine timing. It was tailor-made for you, even if you didn’t write it.
Well, don’t go too far, but go ahead.
You didn’t write it initially.
‘Cause let’s be honest, you know you heard me in that monologue. [Laughs.]
That’s actually the perfect segue for my next question, because a lot of these characters have mythical or historical names. “King David,” obviously…
That’s from the novel, though.
There’s also Wendell Pierce’s character as Gabriel, David’s “guardian angel.” And a friend pointed out that Paul [played by Jeffrey Wright] could maybe be short for Polyphemus, the cyclops from The Odyssey. Was that all in the script already, or was that something that you thought of?
I didn’t know about the cyclops thing. And here’s the thing though, my sister — if you go with my films, I got great names. Buggin’ Out, Bleak, Radio Raheem, Mister Señor Love Daddy. I mean, we can go on and on, I just... it’s like a little shorthand. Those names sometimes help give you an insight to the character. I love having names to be a little clue to who these characters are.
“Denzel and I, we are great jazz musicians.”
You’ve mentioned doing a film with Timothée Chalamet in the future. You’ve said it won’t be about sports, but I’m curious if you’ve thought about the subject matter.
No, but look — I like him. My children, they all grew up in the same circle in Manhattan, and [he’s a] great actor. We never had any deep discussions about film; more about the Knicks. Look, we’re open. We’re open to working together in the future.
Finally, you’ve spoken about how influential Kurosawa was when you were first studying film. How does it feel knowing that there are people now who study your work in the same way that you studied his?
Actually, I don’t even think about that, but… [He lifts Kurosawa’s portrait.] I don’t know if he did this all the time, but this is signed with a paintbrush. White ink. And I want people to know that the Kurosawa estate okayed me to direct this film. So I did not take this lightly. He’s had a big effect. My first film, She’s Gotta Have It, the premise is from Rashomon. This means a lot to me. And we had this [photo] in the editing room upstairs while we were cutting the film. And I just look at him and he’s looking at me like, “Don’t f*ck this up.” But in Japanese. [Laughs.] And I was like, “I got you, Master. I got you.”
And so we’re very… all jokes aside, Denzel and I, we respected the source material. But here’s the thing, and this is something I thought about when we were doing a film, but I never verbalized it. This film is a reinterpretation, not a remake. And Denzel and I were great jazz musicians who were taking American standards… I mean like, “My Favorite Things,” Julie Andrews, Sound of Music. Coltrane did something different with that. There’s a history of great jazz musicians and their interpretation of the American Songbook. That’s our approach. We weren’t biting. It’s not a remake, a reinterpretation. That’s the way we framed it. Denzel and I, we are great jazz musicians.
