THE First Ministers of Scotland and Wales have both given their verdicts on their first meetings with Andy Burnham – and both said that having a UK Prime Minister with a background in devolution governance is showing early signs of a “constructive” new relationship.
Both Scotland’s John Swinney and Wales’s Rhun ap Iorwerth – from the pro-independence SNP and Plaid Cymru respectively – had their first face-to-face meetings with the new Labour Prime Minister in Glasgow on Thursday, coinciding with the opening of the Commonwealth Games.
Swinney and ap Iorwerth both spoke to Burnham about devolving further powers to their respective nations, and both said that his experience as the mayor of Greater Manchester appeared to inform his thinking about decentralising power out of London.
John Swinney’s verdict
Swinney told the press: “I had a very constructive discussion with the Prime Minister. I've known the Prime Minister a long time and we've always had collaborative discussions.
“I think one of the things that helps us in taking forward our relationship is the fact that he and I have had a number of discussions both in his Westminster capacity, as chief secretary to the Treasury, and in his Greater Manchester capacity as mayor.
“I've benefited from conversations with him in his UK and in his Manchester context, and the Manchester context I think has changed a lot of his outlook about where decisions should be taken and how they should be taken.
“I think that's helpful, because having a Prime Minister that acknowledges that the Westminster system doesn't work for Scotland is a good starting point.”
Devolution to Scotland
Burnham flatly ruled out any discussions about Scottish independence or a second referendum, saying it was “off limits”. However, Swinney said that the pair had talked about devolving more powers to Scotland, in consultation with the Scottish Government.
“The Prime Minister gave me an important assurance – which I very much welcome – that devolution of powers to Scotland which he's interested in taking forward would not be done over our heads,” Swinney said.
“That's an important point because that allows us to ensure that we take a coherent approach to the governance of Scotland with the objectives of improving economic performance, improving opportunities and localities.
“So the Prime Minister made clear to me that there'll be further dialogue that will be taken forward which will enable us to discuss how best to devolve more powers into Scotland and for that to be done in a fashion that is in consort with the Scottish Government.”
Asked if those further discussions would involve independence, Swinney said he would raise it again “because that's the essential democratic question that's got to be resolved”. However, he also said that Burnham had not raised the idea of bringing English-style mayors of city regions to Scotland.
Douglas Alexander as Scottish Secretary
Burnham’s reshuffled UK Government has kept Douglas Alexander as Scottish Secretary, despite Swinney making clear that his appointment in September 2025 had been a turning point in the souring of relations between the London and Edinburgh administrations.
Asked if he had “complained” to the Prime Minister about Alexander’s appointments, Swinney said he had not. “It's not my business to complain, it's the Prime Minister's appointment,” he said.
However, he added: “The Prime Minister has heard my perspective – which I think is a widely held perspective – about how Douglas Alexander has gone about things.
“But I'm a man for turning the other cheek, and the Prime Minister's assured me that he wants a constructive, respectful relationship with the Scottish Government, and I take him at face value on that.
“I would expect that of my ministers, and I'm sure he would expect it of his ministers too.”
Rhun ap Iorwerth’s verdict
The First Minister of Wales said he had used his meeting with the Prime Minister to set out the case for his government to have parity of powers with Scotland. As things stand, things like policing, rail, and the Crown Estate are devolved to Edinburgh but not Cardiff.
Speaking to The National in Glasgow, ap Iorwerth said: “I would very much describe it as a constructive meeting. I've made it clear that I want to have a constructive, positive relationship with the UK Prime Minister, and it's very clear both from our conversation earlier this week and our first face-to-face meeting that he's taking the same approach. I very much welcome that.”
The Plaid Cymru MS went on: “The fact that he comes from a devolved background in Manchester is something that gives me hope that he will listen to how we make devolution in Wales work, because that's the key thing. Devolution to Manchester and to Wales aren't the same thing.
“The way I approach this, as I did today, is to say, ‘yeah, you're right, we do need the evidence, and that's why we have the Silk Commission and the Thomas Commission and the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales that have, for example, made the case on the devolution of policing’.
“I want to focus minds in Westminster, looking at the case that has been made – be it on policing or devolution of rail or the Crown Estate and other issues, the need for a fairer funding formula, more fiscal flexibility – and explain to us why they can't be done.”
Ap Iorwerth added: “There's one line in particular that struck me from Burnham in recent weeks, it's that he said that Whitehall will never again fight against the wishes of nations and regions for more devolution. That's over for good, he said.
“Well, let's put that to the test.”
