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The Guardian - US
The Guardian - US
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Tom McCarthy in New York with Ben Jacobs and Ed Pilkington in Milwaukee plus the Guardian US politics and opinion team

Republican debate: Carson and Trump flail as establishment talks policy – as it happened

Watch highlights from the fourth Republican debate

Summary

The fourth Republican debate is in the can. Here’s what we learned tonight:

  • The debate was a polite and serious affair defined by relatively deep dives into tax reform proposals, the minimum wage, health care, immigration, bank bailouts, military spending, foreign policy and more.
  • A number of candidates turned in strong performances. Texas senator Ted Cruz consistently won strong applause, as did former Hewlett-Packard CEO Carly Fiorina. Retired neurosurgeon Ben Carson seemed at turns to captivate and then totally lose his audience.
  • ‘Mogul’ Donald Trump did not seem to be working very hard, although he did get pepped up in an answer about how the US “should have kept the oil” in Iraq and used it to fund care for US military veterans. He also sank his teeth into a question about corporate inversions with visible relish.
  • The debate was seeded with moments both quirky and strange. Cruz, for example, was asked about an incendiary ad portraying callous pension policy as literally throwing granny over a cliff. “My mom is here,” Cruz said, “so I don’t think we should be pushing any grannies off cliffs.”
  • At another point, Trump complained about Fiorina joining ongoing discussions. “Why does she keep interrupting everybody?” he bawled, to no one in particular.
  • Florida senator Marco Rubio breezed through his answers and was good at finding windows to work in optimistic stump speech talk about the next American century. He repelled an attack by Rand Paul, the Kentucky senator, on military spending by accusing Paul of being an isolationist.
  • Paul put himself in play by challenging the other candidates on the risks of imposing a no-fly zone in Syria and on their calls for more military spending. “I’m the only fiscal conservative on the stage,” Paul said.
  • John Kasich, the Ohio governor, presented himself as a realist among fabulists. At a flat statement by Cruz that he would not bail out a big bank, Kasich said he would protect depositors and retorted that “philosophy doesn’t work when you run something.”
  • Kasich’s scrappy performance did not appear to play particularly well with the live audience, which booed his muddled explanation of how he would not bail out banks yet save depositors.
  • There seemed little grounds for reproaching Jeb Bush on his performance, although apart from mentioning Hillary Clinton a lot, the former Florida governor did little to stand out. He did push back on Trump suggesting that Russia could work as a practical ally in the fight against radical jihadists in Syria.
  • Carson said he backed the administration’s plan to send special operations forces into Syria, and summarized his plan to beat radical jihadists: “We have to say, how do we make them look like losers? And I think the way to make them look like losers, we have to destroy their caliphate.”

Updated

The Guardian US business desk give their verdict:

Dominic Rushe:

Well that was a much better debate than the CNBC fiasco. There were a lot of gaps but minimum wage, check, China, check, we even had a reasonable back and forth of the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal (TPP). Trump slammed it - wrongly - as giving too much to China and Kasich made the case for TPP being a buffer against China’s dominance in the Pacific region.

Rubio had a crack at Dodd Frank - the legislation that came in after the last financial crisis and which has codified “too big to fail”. Cruz said he would “absolutely not” bail out the big banks again.

That was, given the very bitty format, a fairly substantial airing of the candidates’ views on some major economic issues. The losers for me were Carson and Trump, who just didn’t have much substance. Although I would hesitate to say there was a clear winner. Maybe Christie in the early-evening babies’ debate?

Jana Kasperkevic

Christie kept his eye on the ball, or rather on Hillary. She emerged as the winner of this debate too.

As for the losers, you can add philosophers, IRS agents and women to the list. I have a feeling that besides their own moms, the GOP candidates do not know many women. Or minimum wage workers. When asked if he was sympathetic to the fact that minimum wage workers only make $15,000 a year, Trump said no. I would love to see him try to make it on that little.

And while this debate addressed a lot of the issues that CNBC only skirted around, the one thing they did not mention is the high cost of higher education. US college debt has surpassed $1tn. It shouldn’t be this easy to ignore.

Dominic Rushe

I agree but hey at least we learnt that Rubio is wrong - philosophers DO make more than welders.

Stay in school, kids.

Closing statements

Paul: We’re rich. We’re free. And we’re in debt. Can you be a conservative if you blow a bunch of money on the military? I’m the only fiscal conservative on the stage.

Kasich: My two 16-year-olds. I worry about them if Hillary Clinton wins. Conservatism means returning power to the people. Wealth, connection, family. Great days ahead.

Fiorina: Imagine a Clinton presidency. Deteriorating military. Crushed middle class. Corroded national character, because of the Clinton way. Carly Fiorina can beat Hillary Clinton.

Bush: Widow of soldier killed in Afghanistan sitting with my wife. We need a commander in chief. Support the veterans. That’s my pledge to you. Vote Bush.

Cruz: My father fled Cuba. “As he stood on the deck of that ferry boat, with the wind and salt air blowing,” it was awesome. Bold colors not pale pastels. Grassroots army. We the people.

Rubio: Story of America is each generation leaving the next better off. Washington is crushing America. This election is about making a different choice. The 21st century can be a new American century. Go to Marco Rubio dot com!

Carson: In the two hours of this debate, five people have died. $100m has been added to debt. 200 babies have been killed by abortionists, two vets have taken their lives out of despair. It does not have to be this way.

Trump: I’m rich and proud of my company. Iconic properties. I don’t have to give you a website because I’m self funding. We cannot let Hillary Clinton win.

And ... Clinton:

Updated

One last commercial break. Closing statements are next!

Paul on climate change: 'we need to look before we leap'

Paul is asked about energy self-sufficiency and climate change.

He says that he would repeal EPA regulations and the clean power act.

“While I do think that man may have a role in our planet, I think nature also has a role... we’ve been through geologic age after geologic age.”

Temperatures go up, Paul says. And temperatures come down.

“We need to look before we leap” on the climate, he says.

Cruz weighs in. “Hillary Clinton embodies the cronyism of Washington,” he says. Applause.

Question for Trump. He’s asked about a plank in his tax plan to tax US profits held overseas at a one-time 10%.

Trump says that corporate inversion, the flight and retention of taxes overseas is a new and deleterious trend.

“We can’t get the money back in.. it’s probably $2.5tn.”

With his tax, he says, “we’re going to have all this money pouring back into the United States’.

Let’s make America great again.

Updated

They’re back.

Question for Rubio, about Hillary Clinton. Why should the American people trust you more than her?

“Well that’s a great question. And let me begin by answering it,” he says.

He laughs at himself.

Then he says “this election is about the future,” and lapses into a stump speech. “The Democratic party and the political left has no idea it’s about the future. .. This nation is going to turn the page.”

Scripted feeling to it, but applauded.

And here was Trump, who doesn’t like being interrupted.

Commercial break. Two significant exchanges and actual points of intense debate tonight, one on bank bailouts, one on military spending and Middle East policy.

Here is Guardian US columnist Jessica Valenti on the misogynist moment of the evening:

You’ve got to love Trump, the undisputed Interrupter-in-Chief of American politics, getting whiny about Carly Fiorina, asking:

‘Why does she keep interrupting everybody?’

Perhaps Trump isn’t used to hearing women talk all that often. We already know he doesn’t listen to them.

Cruz presses Kasich on whether he would bail out a big bank as it was going down. Kasich says as an executive he would “separate those people who could afford it, and people who put their money in...”

Kasich is booed, and then tries to explain, but then he’s dinged for being out of time, and the moment fades.

Fiorina jumps in and says something about creeping socialism.

She’s applauded!

Updated

Here was Ted Cruz earlier promising not to push any grannies off a cliff – his or anyone else’s.

Cruz: 'The biggest lie in all of Washington is that Republicans are the party of the rich'

Cruz is asked whether Wall Street crooks have gotten away with financial murder.

He says yes. He says he would “absolutely not” bail out the big banks again. “The biggest lie in all of Washington is that Republicans are the party of the rich.”

Cavuto asks for elaboration.

“If the Bank of America were on the brink, you would let it fail?”

“Yes,” Cruz says.

“Millions of depositors would be in line with that decision.”

“I would not bail them out,” Cruz says. He says the Fed should return to the gold standard and serve as a lender of last resort. It is not a bailout, he says, it’s a loan at a higher rate.

“We need to get back to sound money, which helps in particular working men and women.”

Kasich: “When a bank is getting ready to go under and depositors’ life savings are on the line,” you’ve got to step in.

“Philosophy doesn’t work when you run something. And I got to tell you, on the job training for the president of the United States does not work.”

This was Ben Carson being introduced earlier:

Carson is asked if he would break up JP Morgan bank. He does not simply state, “no.” He suggests that regulation of big banks is needed.

“I think we should have policies that don’t allow them to just enlarge themselves at the expense of smaller entities,” he says.

Then he says that “the creep of regulations has turned into a stampede of regulations.”

Updated

Bush gets a question about bank bailouts. Would he support such a bailout in the case of a future financial crisis?

Let’s not have another crisis, Bush says. “Raise the capital requirements so that banks are not too big to fail.” He says small bankers are paying too much to comply with Dodd-Frank regulations.

Then Bush takes a swipe at Clinton. “She wants to double down on that,” he says. “She is captive to the left of her party.”

Updated

Massachusetts senator and liberal icon Elizabeth Warren is watching - and she’s not happy.

Now to Kasich, on the question of cyber attacks by China. Kasich says that he would destroy the tools China uses to mount the attacks.

Then he proposes a tour around the world. He calls for reinforced Nato posture in eastern Europe. No-fly zones in Iraq and Syria. Support for the Jordanian king. Withdrawal of support for radical elements in Saudi Arabia. Support for Israel. Force projection in the South China Sea.

He warns that Republicans have to shape realistic plans to defeat Hillary Clinton.

“We make promises we can’t keep under the bright light of the fall [2016], we have trouble,” Kasich says. “We must make sure our economic programs and our military programs are solid.”

Strong riff by Kasich. But weakish applause.

There have been tons of interruptions during this debate – from every corner, writes Jesse Berney.

John Kasich, Jeb Bush, Rand Paul, just about everyone at some point has tried to speak up without the moderators recognizing him.

But when Carly Fiorina tried to jump in when Rand Paul was criticizing an answer she gave, Trump - who yes, interrupted people tonight - popped up to ask: “Why does she keep interrupting everybody?”

Why did Trump attack Fiorina for interrupting and not anyone else? Hmm, what is it that makes Fiorina different from the other candidates on the stage?

I’m no fan of Fiorina, obviously (just scroll down this liveblog), but that was a pretty naked moment of sexism from Donald Trump. Which is the least surprising moment of a predictable night.

Rubio gets in on the Russia debate. “I’ve never met Vladimir Putin, but I know enough about him to know he’s a gangster.”

Rubio says Putin runs a criminal syndicate. Then he pivots to Obama not showing sufficient respect to Israel. Then he is on to the threat of jihad. “Either they win or we win,” he says.

Trump: 'Why does she keep interrupting everybody?'

Paul: Should the Iranians be in talks on Syria?

Paul says he wants to talk about Syria. It’s naive and foolish not to talk to Russia, he says. “When you think it’s going to be a good idea to have a no-fly zone in Iraq, that means” shooting down Russian planes, which means another war in Iraq, Paul says.

I think the first war in Iraq was a mistake. You can be strong without being involved in every civil war in the world.

Fiorina gets in half a phrase before Trump interrupts her interruption.

“Why does she keep interrupting everybody?” Trump asks.

Updated

Bush jumps in on Middle East policy. “We should have a no-fly zone in Syria,” he says. He says Russia asserting itself in the Middle East was a sign of a failed Obama policy.

Trump is now talking about foreign policy. He takes a question about Ukraine. He answers on the Iran nuclear deal, “one of the worst contracts ever signed ever in anything.”

On fighting Isis, Trump says, “If Putin wants to go in, I say go for it.” “And I got to know him very well, because we were both on 60 Minutes.”

Bush jumps in with some pepper. “Donald is wrong on this. He is absolutely wrong on this.”

Bush says the idea that Russia could play an allied role in Syria is off-base.

“That’s like a board game. That’s like playing Monopoly or something. That’s not how the world works.”

Trump is back in. He goes on a rant about how the United States “should have kept the oil” in Iraq. We could’ve used it to pay for care for wounded veterans, he says.

Fiorina gets in a dig at Trump’s story about meeting Putin on 60 Minutes. She says she’s met the Russian leader too. “Although I have met him as well, not in a green room in a show, but in a private meeting” – she would not talk to him.

Updated

In case all this talk of Putin, Assad and beheading isn’t quite hawkish enough for you ... well ... does anyone know who all these generals are? The ones talking to Carson and Trump? Anyway, here’s Guardian US columnist Trevor Timm on some actual Pentagon policy:

It’s always funny listening to Republicans rail against runaway government spending and then immediately pivot to pledging to increase defense spending beyond its already-record levels.

The new defense spending bill just passed by veto-proof majorities in Congress, as Foreign Policy pointed out, is it’s “more than $100 billion higher than the average, inflation-adjusted, Cold War-era defense budget”.

Here’s a chart showing 2012 defense spending.

As you can see, the United States spends more on defense than the next ten countries combined. As the candidates continually complain about nebulous “regulations” and healthcare that prevents higher job growth in this countries, notice not one will point out that the more than $2tn dollars that we spent on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan caused the debt they so hate much more than any single spending item they deplore.

Also: Jeb Bush just called for a Syria no-fly zone. What he didn’t mention is that a no fly zone will require over 70,000 military personnel, the “safe zone” he called for on the ground will take untold thousands more, it will almost certainly will involve direct war with Assad, and possibly direct military confrontation with Russia.

He then claimed that the US shouldn’t be “the world’s policeman” about two minutes later, apparently without a hint of self-awareness.

Updated

Carson on taking 'caliphate' from jihadists: 'we could do that fairly easily'

The moderator says terrorist attacks rose 61% last year, in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan Nigeria and Syria, mostly.

Carson: Do you support Obama’s decision to put 50 special ops troops in Syria?

Carson says having them there is better than not. He says Putin is asserting himself in Syria in order to make Middle East his base. “This is going to be his base, and we have to oppose him there in a very effective way.”

“We can’t give up ground right there.”

Then Carson describes his plan for combatting Isis and radical jihadist groups.

“We have to say, how do we make them look like losers? And I think the way to make them look like losers, we have to destroy their caliphate.

“Take that from them, take that land from them, we could do that fairly easily.”

Carson says he’s talked to a number of generals.

Updated

For those who missed it before the break Cruz’s comments on sugar subsidies were a dig at Rubio and Bush - who are big fans, writes Dominic Rushe.

The Wall Street Journal, co-sponsor of this debate, recently ran an editorial slamming the giant subsidies. Gulp. Gonna say it. Fox once again is showing it can run a heated debate that addresses real issues.

Here are some actual words that came out of Donald Trump’s actual mouth during tonight’s debate, as noted by Jesse Berney:

We are a country that is being beaten on every front: economically, militarily, we don’t win.

People have to go out, they have to work really hard, they have to work their way into that upper stratum.

We are a country of laws. We need borders. We will have a wall. The wall will be built. The wall will be successful.

We either have a country or we don’t have a country.

We have to make our military bigger, better, stronger, so that nobody messes with us.

The United States loses with everybody.

I love trade.

China is the No 1 abuser of this country.

We are losing jobs like nobody ever lost jobs before.

That last quote is especially delicious given the six straight years of monthly job growth we’ve seen under Barack Obama, Jesse notes.

Thursday was not just the day of the fourth GOP debate, it was also the three-year anniversary of the Fight for $15 movement, writes Jana Kasperkevic.

Jihad Williamson, a McDonald’s worker from Milwaukee, who marched with other low wage workers today to push for a minimum wage of $15 an hour had something to say to the GOP candidates who said they would not raise the minimum wage.

“When fast-food workers first went on strike three years ago in New York City, most people gave them no shot to win,” Williamson says. “Now, in the first question of the Republican debate, candidates were forced to respond to our calls for $15 and union rights because there’s a growing understanding in America that $15 an hour is what American workers everywhere need to survive and support our families.

“We are changing the politics of our nation. We are a powerful voting bloc of 64 million nationwide and have one message for candidates of all political stripes running for office in 2016: come get our vote.”

Updated

Here’s Trump’s definitive analysis of the threat posed by China.

Trump calls China “the number one abuser of this country.” He says China is a currency manipulator. He goes back and forth between condemning the Trans Pacific partnership trade deal and haranguing China.

Paul once again jumps in. “I want to point out that China is not part of this deal. ... I think we’ve sort of missed the point a bit here.”

Commercial break.

While we wait, read what Charles Calomiris, a professor at Columbia Business School who specializes in banking, finance and monetary policy, has to say about Trump’s accusation that China manipulates its currency to the bane of the US economy.

I don’t think Donald Trump is a stupid person,” Calomiris told the Guardian. “I just think that he’s not telling the truth, either because he’s not capable of understanding it, or because it’s just not convenient to his message to complicate things with facts. I’m not sure which it is.”

Calomiris has written that Trump’s analysis that China is keeping its currency weak to boost exports is flawed, because “until very recently, China’s currency, the yuan, has been appreciating, not depreciating. From 1995 through 2014, China’s exchange rate appreciated by 26%”.

Updated

Now that Fox has returned to its previously scheduled commercial break for that brief interlude of Rand Paul-induced actual truth after Trump on ‘China’, here’s Guardian US columnist Jessica Valenti on what has not been talked about this evening:

It’s incredible to me that women’s health issues – a huge economic issue – have not been addressed.

The closest we’ve gotten is Marco Rubio talking about how unaffordable child care is ... yet he wants to force women to have children against their will!

So long as the GOP opposes parental leave, subsidized childcare and affordable contraception and abortion, Republicans are anti-family, full stop.

There’s a scramble for the mic. Trump gets it, the moderator takes it, Kasich tries to grab it, the moderator seizes it – a string of interruptions.

Trump: “The TPP is a horrible deal. It’s a deal designed for China to come in, as they always do, through the backdoor.”

Great moment just then from Rubio and Paul.

Rubio is asked about child tax credits in his plan. “The most important job I’m ever going to have is being a parent,” he says. “I am proud that I have a pro-family tax code.” His plan includes a child tax credit.

Paul then attacks Rubio for creating what he says is a “welfare transfer payment.” He says Rubio’s plan is “not very conservative.”

Rubio starts to reply, and Paul interrupts him by pointing out that his budget plan would increase military spending..

“How is it conservative to add a trillion dollar expenditure? A trillion dollar military expenditure?” says Paul.

Rubio’s riposte is extraordinary. He accuses Paul of being an isolationist. He changes the subject, saying the economy is irrelevant if the country is under attack.

There are radical jihadists beheading people and beheading Christians.

Paul scoffs. He insists that Rubio is not a consistent conservative. “As we go further and further into debt, we grow less and less safe. This is the most important question we will discuss tonight. Can you be a conservative, and be liberal on military spending?”

Updated

Pollster Frank Luntz does reckon Cruz had a Rick Perry moment earlier.

Marco Rubio’s tax plan was ripped to pieces by Citizens for Tax Justice earlier this month, notes Dominic Rushe.

They calculated that his plan would add $11.8 trillion to the national debt over a decade and that more than a third of the tax cuts would go to the best-off 1% of Americans.

CTJ found:

    • The poorest 20% of Americans would receive a tax cut averaging $2,168 a year (assuming full refundability of the standard credit).
    • Middle-income Americans would receive an average tax cut of $2,859.
    • The best-off 1% of taxpayers would enjoy an average tax cut of $223,783.
    • More than a third of the tax cuts (34%) would go to the top 1%.

Rubio’s plan isn’t the only one to attract the CTJ’s ire. Jeb! (are we still using the exclamation point?) gives the top 1% an average cut of $180,000; Trump’s plan would cost $12 trillion over 10 years.

Cruz on taxes. How can you cut taxes as much as you propose without running up debt?

Cruz says “there are more words in the IRS code than there are in the Bible, and not a one of them is as good.” That line: heh. The math? Meh.

Cruz describes his 10% flat tax plan for households making more than $50,000 and corporate taxes of 16%. He says it’s plenty of money to run the government. He would eliminate the payroll tax, estate tax, the corporate income tax – and abolish the IRS.

Applause in the crowd! Sounds great. Jobs would be created too, happily. He would eliminate five departments he says.

But he only names four, stating the department commerce twice.

He names the IRS, Commerce, Energy, Commerce and HUD.

Did Cruz just pull a Perry? No, he was smooth about it, and the moderator does not follow up.

Updated

Carly Fiorina says she understands how important it is for people to have health care because she’s a cancer survivor, but there is a huge difference between someone who needs the most basic healthcare and can’t afford it, and someone like Fiorina who never had to worry one moment about getting the absolute best care money could buy, writes Jesse Berney.

Fiorina is a gazillionaire, thanks in no small part to the golden parachute she received when she was fired at Hewlett-Packard after firing 30,000 people. If she needs care, she gets it. Cost is no object.

For many Americans, a trip to the doctor might mean going without food. Paying for a prescription might mean putting off rent. She wants to get rid of Obamacare, which has helped millions get the care they need, and replace it with the “free market”, which, to be fair, paid her millions of dollars for failing at her job.

Paul is up on taxes. he says his tax plan is the only one on stage that is part of a balanced budget plan. Because he’s described, he says, where he would actually cut. One of his plans cuts 1% across the board.

Paul also would toss the payroll tax. “If we get rid of the payroll tax, everybody’s going to get a tax cut.”

His plan is 14.5% for individuals and corporations. He preserves the home mortgage and charity deductions.

Here’s Guardian US columnist Lucia Graves checking in with the Jeb snooze-o-meter after that Kasich-on-Trump-on-Bush-on-Trump moment, high-fives and all:

Jeb scored some points when he responded to Trump’s deport-11-million-immigrants-and-just-look-at-Israel position, with a decidedly adult argument. (It helped that Kasich asked for an adult argument, and then Trump said the moderators should let Jeb speak.)

“They’re doing high fives in the Clinton campaign when they hear” – Republicans talking about immigration, he said of Trump’s extremism.

Is this the sound of Jeb Bush waking up to his own values?

Here’s the Clinton campaign press chief, by the way ...

Updated

Carson: 'There will be a lot of opportunities for poor people not to be poor people'

They’re back!

Carson is asked whose tax plan God would endorse.

He supports a 15% flat tax, and getting rid of “all the deductions and all the loopholes.”

Carson acknowledges the popularity of the home mortgage deduction, and charitable giving deductions. But “If you put more money in people’s pockets, they will actually be more generous, not less generous,” he says.

“I do care about poor people,” he says. There will be a rebate for impoverished families, he says.

“There will be a lot of opportunities for poor people not to be poor people.”

Commercial break. First commercial for the Benghazi movie. This is that Michael Bay movie. Awesome! I mean – er, appalling and tragic.

Updated

Fiorina is asked about her alternative to Obamacare.

She says, allow states to manage high-risk pools for those who need help. She talks about being a cancer survivor and says she understands the need for cancer to be more than a preexisting condition.

But let the free market sort it out.

Fiorina: 'the secret sauce of America is innovation and entrepreneurship'

Fiorina is asked how to alleviate pressure on small business.

She says Obamacare is failing and choking small business because it was written by pharmaceutical companies.

“Health insurance has always been a cozy little game, between regulators and health insurance companies. We have to try the free market.

The free market!”

Multiple rounds of applause for Fiorina. She concludes:

“The secret sauce of America is innovation and entrepreneurship.”

Updated

Cruz jumps into the immigration debate.

What was said was right. The Democrats are laughing. Because if Republicans join Democrats as the party of amnesty, we will lose.

Cruz says the debate would be different if a bunch of journalists were crossing international borders and “driving down the wages in the press”.

[Your correspondent observes self surrounded by immigrant journalists. Observes wallet. Observes self surrounded by immigrant journalists. Scratches head. Visits tedcruz.com.]

Updated

Rubio takes a question about US workers competing with immigrants. He blames the tax code, health care laws, and an “outdated” higher education system.

He is the first one to strike the idealistic tones of a campaign commercial, calling on Americans to “grasp the potential and the promise of this new economy”.

Updated

“Welders make more money than philosophers,” declared Marco Rubio earlier. “We need more welders and less philosophers!”

Fact check from Dominic Rushe:

Score one for Socrates and zero for Marco Rubio. Philosophers make almost double what welders make, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Philosophy and religion teachers, post-secondary, make $71,350. Welders, $40,040. There are 369,610 welders and only 23,210 philosophers. So what we need is more philosophers Marco. Think about it.

Updated

Bush: 'they're doing high fives in the Clinton campaign right now'

Trump tries to smack down Kasich.

“I built an unbelievable country worth billions and billions of dollars. I don’t have to listen to this.”

That draws some kind of Jerry Springer-style “ooooohhh, damn,” from the audience.

Then Bush jumps in, on Kasich’s side.

“They’re doing high fives in the Clinton campaign right now when they hear this,” Bush said. “The way you win the presidency is have practical plans.”

Bush is applauded. Bush-Kasich appear to be winning this debate, at least with this audience.

Kasich on Trump's deportation plan: 'It's not an adult argument'

Kasich jumps in.

“If people think that we are going to ship 11m people... ship them out to Mexico? Think about the families! Think about the children.”

If they’re law-abiding, undocumented immigrants should be able to stay.

Come on folks, we all know you can’t pick them up and ship them across a border. It’s a silly argument. It’s not an adult argument.

Then Trump says Eisenhower moved 1.5 million immigrants out of this country.

Trump: 'If you think walls don’t work, all you have to do is ask Israel'

Trump is up again. He drops a gem. “We are a country of laws. We need borders. We will have a wall. The wall will work.”

If you think walls don’t work, all you have to do is ask Israel.”

Updated

Carson is sick of 'being lied about' ... and Hillary Clinton

Carson defends apparent discrepancies in his telling of his life story and reported accounts.

“I thank you for not asking me what I said in 10th grade. I appreciate that,” he jokes. Applause in the audience.

“The fact of the matter is, we should vet all candidates. I have no problem with being vetted. What I do have a problem with is being lied about.”

More applause for Carson. Then he goes for Benghazi:

When I look at somebody like Hillary Clinton, who sits there and tells her daughter and a government official that no, this was a terrorist attack, and then tells everybody else it was a video – where I came from, they call that a lie.

People who know me know that I’m an honest person.

Updated

Guardian US columnist Lucia Graves will be checking in on Jeb Bush’s Snooze-o-meter tonight:

Looks like Jeb Bush learned how not to answer a question! It’s something he’s been working on as part of the official Jeb Bush comeback tour.

Asked about he would get to 4% growth in GDP, he went on a long tirade about everything from repealing the Clean Power Act to how terrible Hillary Clinton is.

“Hillary Clinton has said Barack Obama’s policies get an A! Really?”

And if audience applause was any indication, it worked.

Updated

Paul is asked whether income inequality matters.

“Absolutely,” he says. He faults Democrats and the federal reserve for making wealth and income inequality worse. He starts explaining how the Fed works. He seems to have an extremely dry mouth, his voice going raspy.

“The bottom line is, if you want less income inequality, move to a city with a Republican mayor, or a state with a Republican governor.”

Micro-economies with distinct inequality dynamics have developed based on the party membership of local mayors, he says.

Fiorina is asked how she could make the case that Republicans are better at creating jobs than Democrats.

She said she met a woman who told her she, the woman, was afraid for her children’s future.

Fiorina says it’s a sad story. She says the government is at fault, “the status quo of big government.”

Then she lists five things to get the economy going again. Balanced budget, tax reform (a three-page tax code), regulatory reform, move regulation back to Congress and hold Congress accountable.

“We must take our government back,” she says.

Applause and whoops.

Pretty sedate outing so far. What do you think?

The combined wealth of the eight people on stage is $4.6bn, writes Dominic Rushe – with a voice from the Fight for $15 rally today:

Most of it is Trump’s, admittedly, but they are all - with the exception of Rubio - comfortably in the 1% club. Their net worths:

Trump: $4.5bn (according to Forbes; $10bn according to the Donald)

Fiorina: $59m

Carson: $26m

Bush: $22m

Kasich: $10m

Cruz: $3.5m

Paul: $2m

Rubio: letting the side down with a paltry $100,000.

None of them seem to be into a wage hike.

The candidates’ comments are not going down well with people who were out marching for a hike in the minimum wage in New York today.

Keith Walker, 47, from New Rochelle, New York, is particularly incensed by Trump’s comments: “I can’t be sympathetic to a higher minimum wage. We don’t win anymore.”

“It’s easy for him to say; he comes from privilege,” says Walker. “He doesn’t know what it is to struggle; he inherited his money. What does he know about a world where your basic costs are greater than your annual salary? He doesn’t have to decide whether to keep a roof over his head or feed his family.”

Updated

Bush is asked what regulations he would change to produce jobs and growth.

“We can get to 4% growth,” he says. Tax reform is first. Eliminate deductions. 20% corporate taxes. “It would create an explosion of investment.”

“I think we need to repeal every rule that Barack Obama has in terms of work in progress. Every one of them.” He names clean power regulations and regulations on agricultural irrigation.

Hillary Clinton has said that Barack Obama’s policies get an A. Really? ... One in five children is living in poverty. That is not an A. It may be the best that Hillary Clinton can do, but it’s not the best the country can do.

Actual applause for Bush.

Republicans running for president want you to make less money, muses Jesse Berney.

The first question was about raising the minimum wage, and Donald Trump said no because America doesn’t win, and I guess paying people less money means we’re winners again. He also said Americans need to “work really hard”.

Ben Carson says we need to be “educated on the minimum wage” and learn facts like how raising the minimum wage kills jobs, which is the opposite of the truth.

Marco Rubio has been watching too many Terminator movies - he’s worried raising the minimum wage will lead to Americans being replaced with machines. (Personally I wouldn’t mind having my spine replaced by robot parts, but I don’t know if Obamacare would cover that.)

Lower wages for more Americans seems like an excellent platform for the GOP to run on. I can’t wait to see how that plays in the general.

Updated

Ted Cruz is up. How can tax reform create jobs?

Cruz calls it “the most important question any of us can face: how to bring back economic growth?” Growth last quarter was almost 4%.

Cruz says his 10% flat tax, regulatory reform and “sound money” would create growth. (Cruz is among those Republicans who suspects the Fed of propping up Obama instead of caretaking the economy.)

Kasich takes a question about the debt. What would he do to balance the budget?

Kasich brokered the last balanced budget deal to pass Congress, as former head of the House budget committee.

“Lower taxes, lower spending,” he says. Then he refers people to his web site.

“When you balance the budget and you cut taxes, people get work.” He calls job creation “our most important moral purpose.”

Kasich gets dinged for going over time. Lightish applause.

But then he’s asked for specifics on how he’d cut spending. He said he would slow growth in Medicare spending and cut Medicaid spending by eliminating waste.

He says he balanced the budget once in Congress, twice in Ohio and could thrice in the White House!

Updated

Rubio is up. He says his bartender father and maid mother made minimum wage but were successful because they bought a comfy home in a safe neighborhood for their family.

If I thought that raising the minimum wage was the best way to help people make [more] I’d be all for it.

Rubio is not.

He says economic growth would lead to broad economic well-being than a higher minimum wage.

He closes with an applause line, and the evening’s second welders reference.

Welders make more money than philosophers. We need more welders and less philosophers!

Applause.

Updated

Here are your candidates ...

Carson blames black unemployment on high minimum wage

Carson takes the question. He says he’s delighted to be here. His three-year-old granddaughter is here, he says.

“Every time we raise the minimum wage, the number of jobless people increases,” he says. “This is particularly a problem in the black community. Only 19.8% of black teenagers have jobs that are looking for one.

“That’s because of those high wages.”

Note: “every time” means twice in the last 20 years.

Updated

First question: on the federal minimum wage! Picketers outside are calling for $15 an hour, up from $7.25.

Trump: I can’t be sympathetic to a higher minimum wage. “We don’t win anymore.” “I hate to say it but we have to leave it the way it is. ... we cannot do this if we are going out to compete with the rest of the world. I would not raise the minimum.”

Smattering of applause.

Updated

The candidates are being introduced. Trump has a thumbs up. Carson blinks. Rubio shows about a million teeth. Cruz waves. Bush grimaces. Fiorina smiles and waves. Kasich does a karate chop. Paul gives a confident, dare we say presidential wave.

Fox business made a commercial to introduce the debate. It starts with pictures of cornfields. Switches to the candidates shaking hands with Americans. Picture of the Miller brewery. The Green Bay Packers. Little detour into the Teddy Roosevelt shooting. Now we’re on Wall Street.

Still going. There’s a shot of the capitol protests against Walker. There’s Ronald Reagan, talking about how awesome the people of Wisconsin are. Election day is a year away, we’re informed.

OK that’s done. Swooshing graphic, snare drum and Neil Cavuto starts talking.

Lindsey Graham, who is commenting live on the debate on the app Sidewire, indulges in just a little pique:

We’ll keep an eye on him all night.

Two men with rifles have taken the stage, but it’s fine because they’re part of an honor guard for the singing of the national anthem. All onstage and in the crowd are standing, hands on hearts, with solemn looks of patriotic fervor on their faces.

Here’s the high note. Of the fuh-reeeee–––! Nailed it.

Play ball!

Updated

After the undercard debate, Bobby Jindal continued to target Chris Christie, reports Ben Jacobs in Milwaukee.

Jindal told reporters afterwards: “Look, I think Chris didn’t answer those questions because he couldn’t answer those questions he couldn’t defend his record. Look every Republican agrees Hillary Clinton is bad, the point is what can we do which is better.” Jindal went on to describe Christie as “a big government conservative.”

In contrast, top Christie aide Mike DuHaime shrugged off Jindal’s attacks. “Just because someone tries to bait you all the time because they’re desperate and up in the polls doesn’t mean you have to do that,” he said. “Governor Christie did a great job staying above that and talking in a way which most Republican primary voters want, which is talking about who is the best person to take on Hillary Clinton.” DuHaime added: “Governor Christie is tough enough to take shots from anyone up there.”

Newly minted speaker of the house Paul Ryan is in the crowd tonight.

And so is a certain governor, who in a parallel universe might instead be preparing to take the stage before a home-state audience thrilled by his unblemished record of conservative reform.

Scott Walker: in the audience.

Hilarious.
Hilarious. Photograph: JIM YOUNG/REUTERS

Welcome back! For the evening’s main event: eight Republican presidential candidates are about to take the stage in Milwaukee to settle their differences once and for all – or at least until the debate next month in Las Vegas.

Look for them to come out swinging. If Donald Trump brings half the attitude to the stage that he’s brought to his Twitter feed recently in tweaking Ben Carson, the civility of the undercard debate (scroll down for more on that) could quickly give way to a hot mess.

Or Jeb Bush might attempt to land a blow on Marco Rubio – and is there anything to discourage Rubio, Ted Cruz or any of the others from flogging their favorite adversary, the accursed MSM?

Which Carson will appear? The congenial, half-recumbent doctor – or the impassioned Jeremiah who last week said that questions about his celebrated biography amounted to “a bunch of lies”?

The undercard debate was a substantive repast of tax and monetary policy questions, with a side of manufacturing and a dollop of disdain for Hillary Clinton. Here are the candidates who will now carry that conversation forward:

  • Jeb Bush, former governor of Florida
  • Ben Carson, retired neurosurgeon
  • Ted Cruz, US senator from Texas
  • Carly Fiorina, former CEO of Hewlett-Packard
  • John Kasich, governor of Ohio
  • Rand Paul, US senator from Kentucky
  • Marco Rubio, US senator from Florida
  • Donald Trump, real estate developer and reality show star

Join us. The gang’s all here, from Milwaukee to Washington and beyond, for laughs and live coverage. We’ll be reading Twitter so you don’t have to ... so stick with us right here, whether you’re watching on TV or not.

The Republican candidates on stage are not the only ones who are under inspection tonight, writes Ed Pilkington in Milwaukee.

So too is the much derided (within GOP circles) “mainstream media” - in this case Fox Business and its sidekick the Wall Street Journal.

Coming out of the widely criticised CNBC debate, the media moderators have to show tonight that they can run a civilised yet meaningful debate without kowtowing entirely to Republican bullying. And the evidence of the “kids’ table” debate that has just ended is that they are pulling it off.

The questions were focused on substance and policy, without being stuffy. And the decision to extend answer times from 60 to 90 seconds, which I feared could lead to woolly pontificating from the candidates, in fact raised the debate to a better level.

Only twice did Fox Business lose its grip on the proceedings: once when Bobby Jindal was allowed to lay into fellow governor Chris Christie’s record in office without Christie being given right to reply. And secondly, and more seriously, when a question from the moderators about which Democrat the contestants admired the most provoked open mutiny, with each of them blatantly refusing to answer.

Otherwise, the early debate bodes well for the main event. Though there’s no accounting for Donald Trump, or Ben Carson ...

Rupert Murdoch weighs in. He’s a big fan of flying Air Force One over the Senkaku Islands, it seems:

Mike Huckabee may have just cornered the misogynist vote, suggests Guardian US columnist Lucia Graves:

When asked by a female debate moderator whether Janet Yellen was the right person to be running the Federal Reserve, he pivoted to a joke about his nagging wife.

“Well, my wife’s named Janet, and when you say Janet Yellen, I’m very familiar with what you mean.” (The audience, for what it’s worth, applauded.)

It may get a laugh but the underlying sentiment could hardly be more dated: he’s dismissing a powerful woman by focusing on the fact that her name sounds vaguely like a term people use to dismiss women all over all the time - something that has drawn considerable unenviable attention on the Democratic side.

It isn’t the first time Republican candidates have resorted to talking about their wives like it’s 1950, either. As Dana Liebelson pointed out recently. The 28 October debate featured Republican candidates making multiple unflattering references to their spouses.

Huckabee made made a point of playfully belittling his wife there, too. When a moderator asked about his greatest weakness, he responded: “My wife is down here in the front, and I’m sure, if you’d like to talk to her later, she can give you more than you’ll ever be able to take care of.”

And then there was the time back in September, when Republican candidates, asked what woman should appear on the face of the $10 bill, named family members and foreigners. To hear them talk, you’d think Rosa Parks and Susan B Anthony were the only women in American history they’d heard of.

Huckabee’s choice? You guessed it. His wife.

Updated

In the comments, TiredOfTheLies notes:

User avatar for TiredOfTheLies

Ironic that they get a stage less crowded than the main one.

The Fox Biz team are clapping themselves on the back for this debate, and they’re right to says business correspondent Sam Thielman.

News networks always benefit from the presence of popular politicians during the evening, but rarely has a network so small boasted names so large: Fox Business Network is the 87th most popular cable channel available in terms of total viewers in prime time.

Its big sister network, Fox News Channel, is number one. No matter who “wins” the evening’s showdown, the person walking away with the biggest smile on his face will undoubtedly be Fox News chairman Roger Ailes, who has not only orchestrated another buzzy TV event after his company’s record-smashing first debate, but has made Fox Business must-see TV.

The network’s average nightly viewership in the most recent quarter was 60,000 people, just above music video channel Fuse but not quite beating out NBCUniversal’s all-mystery-rerun network, Cloo. (Fox News had 1.9m viewers during the same period.) The network had its most-watched month ever in July, with 83,000 people; the eight-year-old network has never really found its footing, though Ailes and company refuse to give up on it.

The undercard debate has been dominated so far by two candidates, and their two diametrically opposed strategies, notes Ed Pilkington on the ground in Milwaukee.

Chris Christie has clearly decided that the way to claw himself back into the big players’ table, having been demoted this time round to the early debate, is to turn his fire back on the Democrats and Hillary Clinton.

In the other corner, Bobby Jindal has made the opposite calculation – that the only way forward is to tear his rivals down, lashing out at the records in office of Christie and Mike Huckabee.

The contrast has been striking, and it will be interesting to see whether it will be replicated in half an hour’s time when the eight main contenders, led by Donald Trump and Ben Carson, take to the stage.

Updated

Rubio ad alert:

HOW do we get one of those fake bowties?

Updated

Who won that? Who’d you like?

Tell us in the comments please! We’ll feature the most incisive and elegantly phrased entries here.

T-minus 45 minutes until the next one is to start.

While frontrunners Donald Trump and Ben Carson mulled their new Secret Service names (Mogul and Eli respectively, according to the Washington Post), former Pennsylvania senator and 2012 Iowa winner Rick Santorum was forced to prepare for Tuesday’s debate with laryngitis medication, reports Nicky Woolf.

Jeb (!) probably has the most to prove tonight, after his campaign has floundered. His aides told reporters to expect a fiesty and aggressive Jeb at the debate. For a little while, it was left to us to work out how Jeb was going to make that transformation; later, he revealed his secret: indulging in some Bocce ball.

While Santorum sniffled and Jeb rolled, Huckabee shopped; taking the opportunity of being in Milwaukee to wander into a local guitar store.

Ben Carson, meanwhile, spent a happy afternoon having a tea party, with a little trolling the media on the side.

Presentation is everything in these debates, which is perhaps why Ohio governor John Kasich and Florida senator Marco Rubio decided to try out a few daring sartorial options for the evening.

Undercard closing statements

Jindal: Cut government. I believe in the American dream. Obama has tried to change the idea of America to be one of dependence. I’m the only Republican who’s serious about cutting government. Take on the establishment. Burn it down!

Santorum: Working families. That means higher wages and a reinvigorated manufacturing sector. Families. That means “fathers and mothers raising their children and committing to that.”

Huckabee: I’m the luckiest guy on Earth. The American dream is real. I got a letter from a third grader in North Dakota. She sent me six dollars. I’m going to keep fighting for kids like that.

Christie: Hillary Clinton was asked about the enemy she was most proud of, and she says Republicans. That’s wrong! “I will go to Washington... to bring this entire country together for a better future for our children and grandchildren.” You can write it down, he says.

Annnnd they’re done.

Updated

Santorum is back. He accuses Obama of running “politicized wars,” saying he “gets in and out” of wars based on polling.

“Commander-in-chief is not an entry level position,” he says.

Santorum takes a question about veterans’ care. He speaks fluently and in detail about the need for better funding for care and to develop “centers for excellence” on veteran-specific ailments such as prosthetics and PTSD.

Jindal is asked how America can renew its sense of unity. He calls for veterans’ administration bureaucrats to be fired. Then he says “one of the things we can do is to teach our children that we live in the greatest country in the world”.

Huckabee: “I think thanking our veterans is a wonderful thing to do, but they’d still appreciate a better paycheck.” He says the country is breaking promises to veterans. “They kept their promises to us. We have not kept our promises to them.”

Christie: “The way to reconnect Americans in uniform is to first and foremost give them a commander in chief who respects” them. “When the president of the United States doesn’t back up law enforcement officers in uniform, he loses the moral authority to lead...”

Updated

Huckabee lands a Fed joke:

“My wife’s name’s Janet, and when you say ‘Janet Yellen’ I’m very familiar with what you mean.”

Then he calls for returning to a gold standard or similar: “if it’s not going to be gold, make it a commodities basket.” Return to the pre-Great Depression era, basically.

“They should tie the monetary standard to something that makes sense.” Then he blames the Fed for wage stagnation. The crowd seems sympathetic to the argument.

Maybe not landed, actually:

Updated

They’re back!

Christie is asked about the Fed not raising interest rates.

Christie says the Fed has kept rates low “for one reason and one reason only. Because they’re trying to politically support Barack Obama and his agenda.”

Not the first time Christie has floated the theory that Janet Yellen wants nothing more than to prop up Barack Obama, economic consequences be damned.

Santorum then agrees with Christie: “They are protecting a president that is over-regulating... with these ridiculously low interest rates.”

Is that true? Or should the Fed be taken at its word that concerns of a renewed economic slowdown and no signs of inflation warrant keeping rates low?

For the counterpoint, read Why Republicans are getting one of the most obvious things wrong in the Washington Post:

The question, then, is how almost every Republican presidential candidate has ended up embracing a view that, as we’ll see, is not only at odds with economics, but also experience itself. And the answer, in large part, seems to be bad history. Republicans seem to either think that everything has gone wrong since the 1930s, or that everything is about to go wrong like it did in the 1970s.

Winners and losers so far, via Twitter ...

Commercial break.

They’re almost through.

Who is winning this thing / going to win this thing / improving his odds / getting tripped up?

Tell us below the line!

Jindal: “We could talk all night about tax plans.”

All right!

But wait... he doesn’t want to. :( He wants to talk about the debt. “We can’t keep spending money that we don’t have.” He says Republicans are as guilty as Democrats.

Updated

bobby jindal flickr
Shorter Bobby Jindal: me me me not him him him. Photo illustration: DonkeyHotey / flickr via Creative Commons

Bobby Jindal wants some blood tonight, notes Jesse Berney. Here are just some of the Louisiana governor’s attacks:

    • Mike Huckabee expanded government, including (gasp) giving more people government jobs.
    • Chris Christie knuckled under Obamacare and let the federal government pay for more poor people’s health care. (Jindal didn’t, but I don’t think they have poor people in Louisiana)
    • Jeb Bush wants to replace Obamacare with another entitlement, while Jindal will replace it with a stern lecture about being healthy, I guess?
    • Ted Cruz and Rand Paul filibustered without an actual plan to accomplish anything, which - OK, well that one is pretty fair.

Jindal’s on the attack because Jindal hasn’t been going anywhere in the polls. He’s been stuck at the kids’ table debates since they got started, and he’s not getting to the main table any time soon. Unpopular at home, unpopular on the campaign trail, why shouldn’t he throw some bombs?

Updated

OK we’re back. A serious-minded question about taxes to recover from the hilarity of that Democrats-you-respect question.

What are you’re highest and lowest “all-in” tax numbers?

Santorum: 20% flat tax across the board – singles, families, corporations, capital gains.

Christie: brackets from 8% through 28%, and getting rid of all deductions and loopholes.

Jindal: Brackets are 25%, 10% and 2%. He says the 2% is important because “everybody should have skin in the game.” Then he goes back to “big government Republicans.”

Huckabee: Throw out estate and capital gains taxes. He calls it “the fair tax.” He doesn’t talk about income tax brackets.

If you want to read about the candidates’ tax plans, click here.

Hmm - as Jindal and Christie go at it, here’s some perspective on the state of their states from business editor Dominic Rushe.

The general sales and tax receipts from Louisiana? $2.9bn. New Jersey? $8.8bn.

New Jersey has the eight largest economy in the union; Louisiana is 24th.

New Jersey is the state least dependent on federal funds, according to this survey from WalletHub, with federal funding representing 26.87% of the state’s revenue,

Louisiana is 43rd, with federal funding representing 42.21% of its state revenue.

So basically LA is a welfare child. Go home Jindal.

Commercial break!

In our intro we gave you Laverne and Shirley. But do you know what other seminal long-running televised comedy of manners was set in Milwaukee?

Heeyyyyyyyy!

The candidates are asked to name a Democrat they respect.

Jindal: Your question stinks!

Huckabee: Tomorrow is Veteran’s Day. Make Congress get health care from the veteran’s administration.

Christie: Democrats are “allowing lawlessness to reign in this country.” Then he addresses law enforcement directly: “When president Christie’s in the Oval Office, I’ll have your back.”

Santorum: “We don’t need the the government to build roads.” (?!)

Then Santorum almost breaks his microphone with a surprise rush of passion on why he respects Democrats.

“Because they fight!” Santorum says. “Because they’re not willing to back down... I respect them, because they are willing to take it to us!”

Updated

Santorum gets a word in edgewise. He’s touting his “record of accomplishment” as a Pennsylvania senator. He lost his 2006 reelection bid by how much? 18 points?

Next question, for Jindal, about his plan to replace Obamacare.

Jindal says the only other candidate with a plan is Bush, whose plan is inferior. He says, “I’m the only candidate running that refused to expand Medicaid.”

Then Jindal disses Christie again.

“Chris, I’ll give you a ribbon for participation, and a juice box. But in the real world it’s about results.”

Oooh. Christie says in New Jersey, “we stopped a federal exchange.” Then he brings up... guess who...

“But here’s the real question. What do you think is going to happen when Hillary Clinton...

She will completely nationalize the health care system... I guarantee you that’s what she’s going to do, if we give her the keys to the White House.

Jindal swipes back at Christie, who declines the debate.

“The people out there don’t care about any of that. You know what they care about, they care about who’s going to beat Hillary Clinton and who’s going to keep their eye on the ball. I’m going to keep my eye on the ball.”

Jindal is asked about the Trans-Pacific Partnership. He uses his time to attack Christie, after attacking Huckabee earlier.

Jindal is punchy tonight.

“If we send another big-government Republican to the White House, we won’t” beat Clinton, he says.

“I have great respect for Bobby’s leadership... Obviously Bobby wants to spend a lot of time tonight talking about [Republican differences]. I’ll tell you what I want to talk about.”

Guess what he wants to talk about?

Hillary Clinton is running so far to the left to catch up with her socialist opponent Bernie Sanders, that we can barely even see her anymore,” Christie says.

Christie takes a question about competing with China.

He says Hillary Clinton engineered “an absolutely weak and feckless foreign policy.” Barack Obama helped, Christie says.

He says he’s been a victim of cyberwarfare, referring to the big OPM hack. “They took my social security number, my fingerprints,” as a former US attorney.

Christie seems to say he would, as president, start a retaliatory cyber war, in which he publishes Chinese leaders’ business activity for the view of the people.

“I’ll tell you this, the first thing I’ll do with the Chinese is, I’ll fly Air Force One over those islands. They’ll know we mean business.”

New Guardian US columnist Lucia Graves chimes in on quite literal toilet humor:

Bobby Jindal won the weird metaphor award with that comment about unprincipled Republicans: “When they go to relieve themselves, their cause and the toilets get flushed at the same time.”

It appears to be a reference to the fragility of filibusters but ¯\(ツ)/¯

Huckabee: no sandwiches for Isis

Huckabee takes a question about Syrian refugees. “We don’t have an obligation to just open our doors,” Huckabee has said.

But should USA take Syrian refugees?

“I’ve been concerned that this administration has not done anything to help stop the slaughter of Christians... but we’re going to open our doors so that ISIS people can just come on in and give them a place to stay, and medical benefits, and sandwiches?”

“Frankly, if we’ve got as many people as we have, I’m not sure this makes any sense’

They’re back! Santorum takes a question about his opposition to the 2008 automakers bailout.

“I’m a capitalist not a corporatist. I’m not somebody who believes that we should bail out corporations, whether they’re automakers or banks.”

Santorum says Obama – not by name – “is killing, choking our ability to compete” with excessive regulation.

He points out that he supports the Export-Import bank, unlike his rivals, “because it means jobs for American workers, here in America.”

Santorum is the most consistent pro-manufacturing candidate in the race?

Commercial break. Wow this commercial is terrifying. Moby Dick the movie?

So who won the first tranche? Each candidate won applause. Jindal’s attack on Huckabee felt a little beside the point. Christie seems to be running a different race from the others.

Christie: 'Hillary Clinton’s coming for your wallet everybody'

Christie jumps in. “If you think that Mike Huckabee won’t be the kind of president that will cut spending... wait until you see what Hillary Clinton will do. She’s the real adversary tonight...”

Christie has brought up Clinton twice. The only one so far to have done so by name.

Hillary Clinton’s coming for your wallet everybody. Don’t worry about Huckabee or Jindal. Worry about her.

Updated

Huckabee gently takes issue. “A lot of us have cut things,” he says. In Arkansas, he says, he cut 11% out of the state budget.

“It’s just not accurate to say everybody here hasn’t cut.”

Jindal responds. He attacks Huckabee for expanding the Arkansas state government. “Spending went up 65% and the number of workers went up 25%,” he says. “Numbers don’t lie.”

Huckabee wants to reply but nope.

Jindal is asked about GOP problems nationally, despite holding 32/ 50 govenors’ seats.

Jindal basically says that the problem is the national Republican party is not radical enough.

“The reason we keep losing nationally is because we try to be cheaper versions of the Democratic party. What if Republicans actually embraced our own principles?”

“Let’s be conservatives, let’s be Republicans.”

Huckabee takes a question about taxes. Instead of answering he delivers his applause lines about Social Security and Medicare. Which are not, à la Christie, let’s cut entitlements.

Huckabee’s message on this is, “those aren’t entitlements – you paid for them!”

Applause from the crowd. Cut taxes, preserve entitlements, clap clap clap.

Oh dear – the tax man is really in for it tonight, notes Guardian US business editor Dominic Rushe.

Christie wants to sack IRS officers, Huckabee wants to close the entire office.

The IRS’s budget has been cut 18% since 2010 and employs 13,000 less people. Business and personal audits are at their lowest levels for a decade. The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities says those cuts have hurt average tax payers:

“Funding cuts hurt honest taxpayers as they filed their taxes this year: more than half of the calls to the IRS were not answered. Even if taxpayers were able to get through to an agent, they had to wait more than 20 minutes, on average, and the IRS would answer only “basic” tax questions. Moreover, many IRS field offices have closed, which made it more difficult for taxpayers, particularly those who have low incomes or are “offline,” to get assistance filing their returns. Funding cuts have also weakened the agency’s ability to curb tax fraud, tax evasion, and other illegal activities. The IRS estimates that individual and business audit rates have fallen to their lowest levels in a decade, and may continue to fall amid budget cuts.”

Santorum is asked about single moms and how he could help them. He says his tax code would benefit families.

Then he makes an argument about welfare amounting to an incentive not to work – or marry.

“We have incentivized people to cohabit instead of marry. Why? Because mom will lose welfare benefits,” he says.

We’ve got all sorts of really corrupt incentives in place. Well meaning by the left. We need to remove them.

Christie: Democrats will raise taxes to '70, 80%'

Christie is asked about how he can compete with Democrats who have so much to “promise” voters – free health care.

Christie laughs.

“They’re going to raise your tax rates to 70, 80% in order to provide all that stuff,” he says.

Christie cusses in passion.

“Get the government the hell out of the way and let the American people win once again!”

Applause.

Jindal takes a question about Lousiana’s unemployment rate and whether energy jobs, of the kind he has encouraged, are the way forward for economic growth.

Jindal rejects the premise. “We’re a top 10 state for jobs growth... the reality is, we’ve diversified our economy.”

Then he starts winging raw steak to the appreciative crowd. “Path to socialism” – will he say it every answer?

“Are we willing to cut the government economy to advance the American economy. That’s the fundamental question that we’ve got to answer. We are on the path to socialism right now.”

Question for Santorum, about the improving employment rate. How is that not good?

Santorum said the “middle of America has been hollowed out.” Then he tells a story about visiting a manufacturing plant where he heard that the US has tens of thousands of welding jobs waiting to be filled.

“The issue is yes, we need a tax code – [and] we’re going to do something about regulation, but we have to start doing something about training and employing people who are sitting on the sidelines and don’t see a path.”

Strong from Santorum, rewarded with applause.

Second Q. For Huckabee. Asked how he will help the United States navigate toward the new economy, Huckabee says: “I don’t know why we have to move away from manufacturing,” to applause.

We’re waiting for him to describe the new manufacturing jobs for the USA.

No new jobs! Get the old ones back. He says his tax code would “bring the jobs back” from Mexico, because “you don’t tax capital and labor”.

US manufacturing has fled abroad because of taxes and will quickly return if the IRS is abolished, is his argument.

Applause.

Updated

First question for Christie, about anemic growth (what was it, 3.9%?) and unemployment (falling past 5%?). How will he put America back to work?

Christie says we’ve just seen the “worst recovery from an economic recession since WWII” – but a recovery’s a recovery, right?

No. He calls for tax reform and “firing a whole bunch of IRS agents”. He wants to repeal Dodd-Frank banking regulations and “lift it off the backs” of the middle class.

Updated

Live from Milwaukee, it's the kids'-table undercard debate!

It’s started.

Updated

FiveThirtyEight’s Harry Enten says what’s on everybody’s mind tonight.

We’re not far from the undercard now. Get comfortable. Christie, Huckabee, Jindal, Santorum. Should be good!

Tonight is supposed in part to be about the candidates’ plans for economic growth and tax policy, which amounts to dutiful descriptions from the stage of plans that have no chance of being enacted but every chance of being dissected afterward by analysts trying to glimpse what these people actually are out for.

Not up on the candidates’ tax plans, which in your defense remain mostly sketchy and unarticulated? The Tax Policy Center has your back. Enjoy:

What is the purpose of secret service code names if they announce to the whole world what they are?

Anyway, Trump and Carson, as the polling frontrunners for the Republican nomination, have a measure of secret service protection now, to the point that they can add “earned secret service nickname” to their CVs / résumés (when are they going to come up with an American word for it).

You may remember in the second Republican debate the candidates were asked to say what they wanted their nicknames to be, and Christie said Trueheart and Bush said Eveready and Trump said Humble and Carson said One Nation.

Trump and Carson must not have contacted the right bureaucrat, because the names have been assigned, and they did not get their first choices. Carson was named for a Biblical high priest and Trump was named after a bump on a ski run:

Updated

Spare a thought for the losers: both Senator Lindsey Graham and former New York governor George Pataki were dropped from the undercard debate tonight, not quite having bent the old pole back far enough to vault the 1%-level support in at least one of the four most recent national polls required to get in. (It took 2.5% to get into the main event, a mark that foiled Christie and Huckabee.)

Undaunted, Graham told the Guardian: “I don’t think I am an undercard person and not an undercard candidate.” Ben Jacobs reports:

The problem with the debates, he said, was that the criteria for entry to the top table favored those candidates who “had a TV show”.

Instead of debating on Tuesday night, the South Carolina senator said he would use the social media network Sidewire, which promises “news and analysis from insiders without the noise”, to share his thoughts on the main debate.

“We’ll be commenting on policy and trying to have a sense of humor,” he said.

Time to sign up for Sidewire!

Could tonight CHANGE EVERYTHING?!

Far out man.

The Republican candidates felt so poorly treated in the last debate by host network CNBC that they complained onstage about the questions and held a meeting afterward to draft demands for future debates.

But tonight’s debate host, Fox Business, is not subject to the new Republican demands, the Guardian’s Ed Pilkington reports, “partly perhaps because of the strong obeisance shown by senior Republicans towards Roger Ailes, the chairman and CEO of Fox News and Fox Business Network”:

Nonetheless, some changes will be on display in Milwaukee that could notably influence the tone of the debate....The network has also agreed to extend the cutoff time for candidates’ answers from 60 to 90 seconds.

RNC chairman Reince Priebus sent a letter to committee members describing the national party’s efforts to manage tonight’s spectacle:

Just weeks ago, a confrontation between Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio at the third Republican debate marked a critical turning point in the trajectories of the two former Florida allies and their presidential campaigns, the Guardian’s Sabrina Siddiqui reminds us.

It not only underscored the perils of Bush, the state’s former governor, trying to attack Rubio, one of its senators, but also left many political observers baffled by the Bush campaign’s tactics and decision to target his former protege.

Click through below for all the dark intrigue that defines Bush-Rubio:

Hello! And welcome to our coverage of the fourth Republican presidential debate.

What makes this night different from all other nights? We’re going to Milwaukee! That’s right – the traveling GOP circus is pitching tent tonight in Beer Town, once home to four of the largest breweries on Earth, which together sound like the perfect law firm for DUIs: Blatz, Miller, Pabst & Schlitz.

Ah, Milwaukee. Donald Trump’s going to be here. There’s quite a lot on the line, actually, considering how fast the calendar is flipping, and the growing pressure on certain candidates – looking at you, Jeb Bush – to make the kind of move that says “yes” to voters and “$$” to donors.

But on the off chance that you don’t want to think about Jeb, we’ve prepared a nice buffet of narratives for you to choose from as we prepare to watch. Tonight might be about Ben Carson, and whether he responds to the beating his biography took this week. It might be about Trump, and whether he will amplify his attacks on Carson. Will Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz top the strong reviews they won last time? Will Chris Christie, who for the first time has been removed from the main event, crush the undercard? Will the Bush vs Rubio rivalry get ugly?

Will one of the candidates actually leave the stage and kick the personal ass, on behalf of America, of an actual member of the media?

If it happens, you’ll hear about it here first. For an enhanced media consumption experience, we encourage you to stream the debate live on foxbusiness.com as you read.

Boring details

Tonight’s debate will be hosted and broadcast by Fox Business Network in conjunction with the Wall Street Journal. “The questions will focus on jobs, taxes and the general health of the economy, as well as domestic and international policy issues,” Fox says.

The undercard debate, a one-hour bout beginning at 7pm ET, will be hosted by FBN anchors Sandra Smith and Trish Regan, and WSJ Washington bureau chief Gerald Seib.

The two-hour primetime debate follows at 9pm ET and will be moderated by Neil Cavuto and Maria Bartiromo of Fox News, with WSJ editor Gerard Baker.

Here are the candidates taking part in the main debate at 9pm:

  • Jeb Bush, former governor of Florida
  • Ben Carson, retired neurosurgeon
  • Ted Cruz, US senator from Texas
  • Carly Fiorina, former CEO of Hewlett-Packard
  • John Kasich, governor of Ohio
  • Rand Paul, US senator from Kentucky
  • Marco Rubio, US senator from Florida
  • Donald Trump, real estate developer and reality show star

Here’s the 7pm undercard lineup:

  • Chris Christie, governor of New Jersey
  • Mike Huckabee, former governor of Arkansas and media personality
  • Bobby Jindal, governor of Louisiana
  • Rick Santorum, former senator from Pennsylvania

Along for the ride this evening here at Guardian US are:

  • Guardian US reporters Ed Pilkington and Ben Jacobs in Milwaukee and Sabrina Siddiqui in Washington
  • Business editor Dominic Rushe and special guest Nicky Woolf in New York
  • Columnists Jessica Valenti, Lucia Graves and Trevor Timm... plus, we’re excited to announce, contributions for the first time to our politics blog from humorist Jesse Berney

Schlemeel, schlemazel, hasenfeffer incorporated!

Updated

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