Britain after Brexit Question Time - Summary
Question Time can be sometimes degenerate into a shoutfest, but that was an exemplary programme: a high-powered panel, sharp questions, quality debate, and even some news. Here are the key points.
- David Davis, the Brexit secretary, said EU migration may rise some years after Brexit under the government’s plans. In response to a question about whether there would be a cap on the number of EU nationals coming to the UK after Brexit, he replied:
I cannot imagine that the policy will be anything other than that which is in the national interest, which means that from time to time we’ll need more, from time to time we’ll need less migrants. That is how it will no doubt work. And that will be in everybody’s interests, the migrants and the citizens of the United Kingdom.
He said that he still thought the government would be able to achieve its target of getting annual net migration below 100,000 at some point. But he went on:
But the simple truth is that we have to manage this problem. You’ve got industry dependent on migrants. You’ve got social welfare, the national health service. You have to make sure they continue to work.
- He said Britain would not pay anything like £50bn (the sum the European commission reported plans to demand) to the EU when it left. Asked about this claim, he said:
The prime minister said we are coming to the end of the time when we are paying enormous sums to the EU. We will, of course, meet our international obligations but we expect also our rights to be respected too. I don’t think we are going to be seeing that sort of money change hands.
- He said that leaving the EU without a deal would be “not as easy as some would have you believe” but “a lot better” than critics have claimed. He said that when Theresa May spoke of no deal being better than a bad deal, she was responding to claims that some EU countries might try to impose a punitive deal on the UK. The government wanted a deal, he stressed.
Our aim is a comprehensive free-trade agreement, that’s what we are after, because that is much better than anything else.
- He appeared to distance himself from his claim that the UK would get a deal with the “exact same benefits” as current single market membership. Asked about this remark, which he made in the Commons last year, he claimed that he was just being ambitious about the government’s aims.
One of the problems that happens when democracies negotiate is that the politicians are afraid of raising expectations. The truth is we are negotiating for the future of our country. Therefore we want to raise the expectations as much as we possibly can, we want to aim as high as we possibly can. I make no apology for being ambitious about what we achieve. We are aiming to get the best possible deal with Europe and the best possible deal with the rest of the world. That’s what this country needs.
But when Davis spoke in the Commons last year, what he said sounded more like a commitment than an aspiration. He said:
What we have come up with ... is the idea of a comprehensive free trade agreement and a comprehensive customs agreement that will deliver the exact same benefits as we have, but also enable my right honourable friend the secretary of state for international trade to go and form trade deals with the rest of the world, which is the real upside of leaving the European Union.
- He suggested that Theresa May had ruled out paying money to the EU for single market access after Brexit. Last year he told MPs the government would consider this. When he was asked about this, he stressed that he had used the word “consider”. Then he went on:
As the prime minister corrected me later that day, she said, “Yes, we’ll consider it. Doesn’t mean we’ll do it.”
That’s all from me for tonight.
Thanks for the comments.
Updated
This is from the Times’ Michael Savage.
David Davis saying there will be no cap on immigration is a rare accidental news event by the May administration.
— Michael Savage (@michaelsavage) March 27, 2017
Q: Should the public be given a vote on the final Brexit deal?
David Davis says this would undermine the government’s negotiating position, because that might encourage the EU to offer the UK a very bad deal.
Sir Keir Starmer says that people must stop talking in a way that perpetuates division and must unify going forward #bbcqt pic.twitter.com/NRiJ3eipOF
— BBC Question Time (@bbcquestiontime) March 27, 2017
Here is the former Times political editor Philip Webster on Starmer’s stance.
Keir starmer seems to rule out second ref because we will be out before transitional arrangements expire Strange line to take
— Philip Webster (@Pwebstertimes) March 27, 2017
Nick Clegg says Davis’s argument does not make sense. Democracy does not stop governments negotiating. And he says Davis himself used to be in favour of a second referendum.
And that’s it. The programme is over.
I will post a summary shortly.
Paying EU for access to the single market has been ruled out, Davis suggests
Davis says the British people voted to leave the EU. That means leaving the single market. You cannot be half in and half out.
David Dimbleby asks Davis if he still backs paying a contribution to the EU for access to the single market.
Davis says he said in the Commons that the government would consider this. But, as the prime minister said to him later that day, considering something is not the same as doing it.
- Theresa May indicated privately to Davis that the government would not pay the EU for access to the single market, after Davis told MPs he was considering it, Davis reveals.
David Davis says that, when Alex Salmond talks about Theresa May saying she would get a UK-wide agreement on Brexit, he is quoting from a newspaper, the Daily Telegraph.
In fact, May just said she would seek such an agreement, he says.
Updated
Suzanne Evans says Salmond speaks for the SNP, not Scotland. And a third of SNP voters voted for Brexit, she says.
Nick Clegg says he feels most sorry for young people. They voted by a large majority against Brexit, but will have to live with it. That is why there should be a referendum on the final vote, he says.
Alex Salmond says Theresa May said she would agree a UK-wide approach to Brexit. But she has not done that, and is still going to trigger article 50 on Wednesday. That is a breach of faith, she says.
Alex Salmond says that the attitude of Westminster towards the devolved administrations has been 'contemptuous' #bbcqt pic.twitter.com/UAQMs0Y44S
— BBC Question Time (@bbcquestiontime) March 27, 2017
David Davis says the joint ministerial committee (the comprises ministers from the UK government and from the devolved administrations) has met four times to discuss the Scottish government’s Brexit plan to keep Scotland in the single market.
He says the UK government is trying to get a deal that will allow the UK to sell into the single market. So London and Edinburgh want the same thing on this, but are just trying to achieve it in different ways.
He says the Scottish plan would involve free movement applying to Scotland but not to England. That would break the country apart. That is what nationalists want, he says.
Here is the BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg on David Davis’s comments about EU immigration.
Sounds like a system where limits are set by economic requirements by something like the independent Migration Advisory Committee
— Laura Kuenssberg (@bbclaurak) March 27, 2017
What Davis said about EU migration not necessarily going down every year after Brexit
This is what David Davis said about EU immigration after Brexit.
I think most people are in favour of migration so long as it is managed. The point is, it will be managed. My job is to bring the job [control of immigration] back. And it is for the home secretary to decide what the policy will be. But I cannot imagine that the policy will be anything other than that which is in the national interest, which means that from time to time we’ll need more, from time to time we’ll need less migrants. That is how it will no doubt work. And that will be in everybody’s interests, the migrants and the citizens of the United Kingdom.
Q: Sometimes it will be be more? More than now?
What it will be is whatever the government judges to be sustainable.
Q: So the tens of thousands, that the Tory party has gone on about for a long time [the pledge to get annual net migration below 100,000] no longer applies?
I think we’ll get there. But the simple truth is that we have to manage this problem. You’ve got industry dependent on migrants. You’ve got social welfare, the national health service. You have to make sure they continue to work.
Davis says EU immigration won’t necessarily go down every year under Brexit
David Davis says he agrees with Salmond on one thing: EU nationals in the UK should be made to feel welcome, and do an important job.
He says there are 4m people we need to worry about: 3m EU nationals here, and 1m Britons abroad. We do not want to treat any of them as bargaining chips. He says almost all EU leaders have agreed that that they want the same, that the government’s approach is right, and that they want to sort this out early in the talks.
Sir Keir Starmer says the government voted down amendments on this when the article 50 bill went through parliament. EU nationals should not be used as bargaining chips, he says.
Q: Will there be a cap?
Davis says the first thing is to bring migration back under UK control. That is his job, he says. Then the Home Office will decide how many migrants we need. The government will only do what is in the national interest. Sometimes that will mean more, sometimes that will mean less.
- Davis says EU immigration won’t necessarily go down every years under Brexit.
Q: You mean more than now?
Davis suggests he just means it will go up and down from year to year.
He says he still thinks in time the government will be able to get annual net migration below 100,000.
Q: Will there be a cap on the number of EU nationals coming to the UK after Brexit?
Suzanne Evans says we need a level of immigration that is sustainable.
She claims no one in the leave campaign ever said they wanted to stop immigration.
Alex Salmond laughs. So Ukip were saying they wanted more immigration from outside the EU?
Evans says Ukip did argue for that.
So it was all a secret plot to increase immigration, Salmond scoffs.
He says the UK should decide unilaterally that EU nationals living here will be welcome to stay.
This goes down particularly well with the audience.
Huffington Post’s Paul Waugh has a Question Time game.
Here's a fun way to pass the time watching the #bbcqt audience. Can you tell if someone's a Leaver or Remainer *before they even speak*?
— Paul Waugh (@paulwaugh) March 27, 2017
David Davis mocks Keir Starmer and Labour for “trying out different positions” on Brexit over the last few months. Someone mentions the Kama Sutra.
Updated
Davis appears to back away from claim UK-EU trade deal will offer 'exact same benefits' as single market
David Davis says deals involve finding a solution that works for everyone.
But Nick Clegg argues that this is different. Most trade deal involve trying to increase trade. This one is unique because it involves a country wanting to do less trade with the EU.
A member of the audience says they need us more than we need them.
Q: [To Davis] You said you want a deal that will deliver “the exact same benefits” as now?
Davis says he wants to raise expectations, because he is negotiating for his country. He wants to get the best possible deal, he says.
- Davis appears to back away from his claim that Britain will get a deal offering the “exact same benefits” as membership of the single market and the customs union. He was probably responding to the fact that Starmer put this at the heart of his six demands for Brexit announced earlier today.
Q: What do panellists think of Suzanne Evans call for judges to be politically appointed, after the supreme court ruling?
Sir Keir Starmer says it was “disgraceful”.
Evans says she was saying there should be more political input into their appointment, not that they should be chosen for their politics.
Alex Salmond says he agrees with Nick Clegg.
He says almost every country in the world is in a trading bloc.
He does not think there will be no deal, he says. But he thinks David Davis will have to make so many concessions that Brexit supporters will be disappointed.
Sir Keir Starmer says there have been many forecasts about Brexit.
“How many have turned out to be right,” asks David Davis. “None.”
Starmer says every time someone challenges Brexit, they are denounced. That is not healthy.
Nick Clegg says he used to work in trade negotiations. He says “petulant foot-stamping” does not impress people in negotiations like this.
He says, if he were prime minister, he would have tried to divide the differences, especially between the old and the young.
He would have left the EU, because the British people voted for it, but not in this “self-destructive way”.
Keir Starmer says leaving with no deal would be a terrible thing to do. He says he is worried that people are talking this up as an option.
He says he was director of public prosecutions for five years. If we crash out with no agreement, we will be less safe, because we will leave criminal justice information-sharing agreements.
Suzanne Evans says this is just project fear. She does not believe Starmer. It is “utter nonsense” to suggest we will stop sharing information with the EU.
Suzanne Evans agrees that no deal is better than getting a bad deal when it comes to negotiating the UK's exit from the EU #bbcqt pic.twitter.com/5MUP6lOG49
— BBC Question Time (@bbcquestiontime) March 27, 2017
Updated
Davis says leaving EU with no deal would not be as a damaging as critics claim
Q: Is no deal better than a bad deal?
Nick Clegg and Alex Salmond both say no deal would be the worst possible deal.
David Davis says the UK is not aiming for no deal.
He says last summer people were talking about the UK being punished. In those circumstances no deal would be better than a bad deal.
He says leaving the EU with no deal would not be as bad as Clegg and Salmond say.
He says the government has planned for this.
When it is put to him that he told the Commons Brexit committee last week that he had not done an assessment of what leaving with no deal, and trading with the EU on WTO terms, would cost the economy, he says the government has done a lot of contingency planning for this.
It would not be as bad as critics claim, he says.
- Davis says leaving EU with no deal would not be as a damaging as critics claim.
Keir Starmer says the UK should pay what it owes.
Keir Starmer said that the final Brexit agreement must reflect the "best of British values" #bbcqt https://t.co/kq93vxIWoE pic.twitter.com/JoPDroGyMU
— BBC Question Time (@bbcquestiontime) March 27, 2017
Nick Clegg and Alex Salmond both say the UK will need to pay a sum when it leaves.
Suzanne Evans say the UK should not pay a penny.
What Davis said about not paying anything like £50bn to the EU to leave
Here is the key quote from David Davis.
I don’t know about 50bn. I’ve seen 40, 50, 60, I’ve seen no explanation for any of them. And the prime minister said we are coming to the end of the time when we are paying enormous sums to the European Union. We will, of course, meet our international obligations. But we expect also our rights to be respected too. So I don’t think we’re going to be seeing that sort of money change hands ...
We will meet our international obligations, whatever that turns out to be. But that is nothing like [what] we are talking about here. Indeed the House of Lords committee on this subject reckoned that that was zero.
Q: So you might pay zero?
We’ll wait and see. I’m not going to do the negotiating on your programme, David.
David Dimbleby asked about 50bn. He did not specify whether he was talking pounds or euros, although £50bn (€60bn) is a figure that has been widely quoted.
Updated
Davis says Britain will not pay anything like £50bn to EU
Q: Should we expect to pay a large Brexit payment to the EU when we leave?
David Davis says he does not know about £50bn, or £40bn or £60bn. He does not know where the figures come from. The prime minister has said the UK will meet its obligations. But he does not expect to see “that sort of money” change hands.
A Lords committee said Britain would owe nothing.
- Davis says Britain will not pay anything like £50bn to the EU.
Q: So you might pay nothing?
Davis says he is not going to negotiate on the programme.
Updated
Brexit Question Time
David Dimbleby is introducing the panel.
The show is being broadcast live from Birmingham.
Dimbleby says the audience is divided 52/48 for Brexit, just as the country was.
Question Time can get raucous at the best of times, but tonight’s show may get particularly intense, because is an unusually divisive issue. The Britain Thinks consultancy has been investigating this with its Brexit Diaries research for the Guardian and this presentation (pdf) is well worth reading for what it says about how public opinion on this is fractured.
Britain Thinks argues that we divide into four tribes on Brexit.
The “diehards”, who are pleased about Brexit and have no significant concerns about it.
The “cautious optimists”, who are pleased about Brexit but who do have significant concerns.
The “accepting pragmatists”, who are disappointed about the result of the EU referendum but who can see some advantages from Brexit.
The “devastated pessimists”, who are disappointed about Brexit and can see no significant advantages from it at all.
Among tonight’s panel Suzanne Evans, like almost all ‘Kippers, is a diehard. I think Melanie Phillips is too, although I’m afraid it’s a long time since I’ve read her column, so I can’t be sure.
Unusually for a cabinet Brexiteer, David Davis is probably a diehard/cautious optimist cross. Boris Johnson and Liam Fox are both pure diehard.
Sir Keir Starmer is probably, at heart, a devastated pessimist, but he has been trying very hard to think like an accepting pragmatist.
Nick Clegg is a platinum card devastated pessimist.
And, intellectually, Alex Salmond is probably a devastated pessimist too, although for nationalists Brexit opens up the possibility of Scottish independence, and so “pessimist” as a label is probably not appropriate.
You can tell it’s a historic week; two days before the triggering of article 50, the BBC have wheeled out David Dimbleby to chair a Britain after Brexit Question Time special, on a Monday.
The panellists are:
David Davis, the Brext secretary
Sir Keir Starmer, the shadow Brexit Secretary
Nick Clegg, the Lib Dem former deputy prime minister
Suzanne Evans, the Ukip health spokesperson
Alex Salmond, the SNP former Scottish first minister
Melanie Phillips, the Times columnist
Britain After Brexit #bbcqt special live Monday at 8.30pm @DavidDavisMP @Keir_Starmer @nick_clegg @SuzanneEvans1 @AlexSalmond @MelanieLatest pic.twitter.com/7RJ2Bp2fWr
— BBC Question Time (@bbcquestiontime) March 24, 2017
Here is the BBC’s preview.
Here are some more details on Monday's Question Time Special - Britain After Brexit #bbcqt pic.twitter.com/sO8CkdpjY8
— BBC Question Time (@bbcquestiontime) March 24, 2017
The programme starts at 8.30pm, and runs until 10pm. I will be covering it in detail, and then posting a summary and analysis afterwards.
If you want to contact me on Twitter, I’m on @AndrewSparrow.
