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The Guardian - AU
National
Gabrielle Chan

Malcolm Turnbull says there is 'no chance' of Coalition watering down gun laws – politics live

Malcolm Turnbull
Malcolm Turnbull speaks during a motion to suspend standing orders in the House of Representatives at Parliament House in Canberra. Photograph: Lukas Coch/AAP

Night time politics

I better step away from the live publishing tool now.

  • The day was dominated by the gun issue after David Leyonhjelm said he would negotiate on the government’s industrial relation laws with other issues. He has said before the Coalition dudded him on a deal to support a migration bill in return for a sunset clause on the Adler gun import ban.
  • The story then got away and the prime minister, while underlining his support for the Howard-Fischer National Firearms Agreement , refused to rule out negotiating on the Adler. The commonwealth with meet with the states on this issue on Friday. It is up to the states and the commonwealth to decide on what to do with the Adler.
  • When Labor brought on a motion in parliament, Turnbull ruled out any weakening of the gun laws. But the government position remains that there is an import ban on the Adler until the Coag decides how to categorise it.
  • Question time was dominated by the issue, which drowned out the Coalition’s determination to focus on the industrial relations bills. The ABCC bill passed with the Xenophon independent in the lower house late today. It can’t go to the senate until November 7 at the earliest.
  • In estimates, Human Rights Commission president Gillian Triggs withstood five hours questioning. Some of it related to Tim Wilson’s role. Some related to her views that politicians were generally ill-educated.
  • The ABC managing director Michelle Guthrie and colleagues also took some fairly rigorous question.

Tomorrow we have more estimates and more lower house. Thanks to the blog feeders, Paul Karp, Gareth Hutchens, Amanda Meade, Jasper Lindell and Mikey Bowers. As well as you, dear readers.

Good night.

The ABCC bill has just gone through the lower house.

NXT senator Rebekha Sharkie voted for the bill. Which gives you an idea of where Nick Xenophon is going to go in the Senate. He is looking to amend in the Senate.

Indi independent Cathy McGowan also voted for the bill.

Denison independent Andrew Wilkie voted against.

Bob Katter was not listed in the vote.

Updated

Alannah & Madeline Foundation’s CEO Lesley Podesta has been meeting with MPs in Canberra today to urge them to maintain strong gun laws.

Walter Mikac, father of Alanna and Madeline who with their mother Nanette, were killed in the Port Arthur massacre.

The Alannah & Madeline Foundation is calling for urgent action to ensure that our firearm laws remain strong, and asks that:

1. All states and territories pledge to ensure their gun laws are maintained in line with the National Firearms Agreement 1996, and continue to do so.

2. All firearms capable of firing multiple shots in quick succession and which could be used to harm a number of people in a short amount of time should be restricted, including the Adler A110.

The Foundation is running a petition to that effect.

Updated

The prime minister is speaking on the ABCC bill. Given most government questions spoke to this bill during question time, I won’t give you chapter and verse on it.

Senator Jane Hume at the senate Environment and Communications committee.
Liberal senator Jane Hume at the Senate environment and communications committee. Photograph: Mike Bowers for the Guardian
Senator Sam Dastyari reacts to questioning of the ABC management from senator Jane Hume.
Senator Sam Dastyari reacts to questioning of the ABC management from senator Jane Hume. Photograph: Mike Bowers for the Guardian

Updated

Senate Environment & Communications committeeEditorial Director of the ABC Alan Sunderland.
Editorial director of the ABC, Alan Sunderland, at the Senate environment and communications committee. Photograph: Mike Bowers for the Guardian

Updated

Managing director of the ABC Michelle Guthrie before the senate Environment and Communications committee.
Managing director of the ABC, Michelle Guthrie, before the Senate environment and communications committee. Photograph: Mike Bowers for the Guardian

Updated

Diversity warrior Eric Abetz.

Senator Eric Abetz asked ABC boss Michelle Gutherie about diversity of views (rather than people) at the senate Environment and Communications committee .
Senator Eric Abetz asked ABC boss Michelle Gutherie about diversity of views (rather than people) at the Senate environment and communications committee. Photograph: Mike Bowers for the Guardian

Updated

Legal and Constitutional is running well behind because of the marathon five-hour questioning of Gillian Triggs, who was only scheduled to appear for 45 minutes.

Updated

The ABC managing director, Michelle Guthrie, is facing one of the ABC’s biggest critics, senator Eric Abetz, at a Senate estimates communications committee.

The ABC’s editorial director, Alan Sunderland, is answering many of the questions for her as he is more across the detail.

Abetz is asking about an ABC news story about a five-year-old being raped on Nauru which the ABC later retracted.

Abetz does not believe the ABC’s apology was comprehensive enough.

“Serious and important errors” were admitted, Sunderland says, but we corrected the error.

Abetz then turns to Guthrie and asks her about her statement about diversity:

I note in recent times you were looking for diversity of presenters on the ABC, is that correct?

Guthrie:

One of the opportunities we have is to be more reflective of the community.

Abetz:

May I suggest you get some diversity in relation to people’s views.

Updated

One of our readers has taken issue with my characterisation of the Adler as a more lethal weapon than the ones in the same category (if it stays in A).

Reader reasons if a weapon can kill, a faster or more powerful weapon cannot kill you even more. I take the point.

So perhaps what I should have said is that the Adler would allow someone to kill more things more quickly.

As its advocate David Leyonhjelm said when asked why the Adler was necessary:

[Feral pigs] frequently have substantial litters and so if you have more than five rounds you might kill the entire litter rather than miss some and reload. Shotguns, with the magazine, are slow to reload. Having seven rounds might mean you clean up the litter and rid the country of more pigs.

My kingdom for a gun expert.

In the meantime, let me segue to the Australian Pesticides and Veterinary Medicines Authority (APVMA) that Barnaby Joyce wants to move from Canberra to his electorate. This is a promise he made ahead of his election battle with Tony Windsor.

There is supposed to be a cabinet submission containing a cost benefit analysis about this move. It has not been forthcoming. Lots of APVMA staff have homes and families in Canberra and so they are cranky. They have to move their lives. Or move their jobs.

The issue came up in estimates amongst all the derp of everything that has come before us.

Praise the lords for Aunty, because Anna Vidot was there. She sheds a bit of light with her Twitter feed.

South Australian senator Anne Ruston:

The immigration minister, Peter Dutton, has just been interviewed by David Speers on Sky. I feel his pain (Speers). He was trying to nail down two points.

Was it OK to horse trade on legislation, ie gun laws for national security legislation?

There was no clear answer.

What is the government’s position on the Adler?

There is a ban. We extended the ban. We support the Coag process, says Dutton.

This does not tell us what the government position is on the gun going into Coag.

The meeting is this Friday.

Updated

The Adler story

I just want to step back and summarise this gun debate because it is quite complex. Granted, everyone has had a crack at summarising but this is my version.

  • The Adler shotgun was banned from coming into the country last year because it was a different type of gun and did not fit into a categories in the National Firearms Agreement.
  • The feds and states have to decide which category it fits into so until that happens, the import ban is in place.
  • David Leyonhjelm does not believe in gun regulation so he cut a deal under Abbott for a sunset clause on the ban to expire in August this year.
  • Just before the use-by date, the Turnbull government chucked out the sunset clause and extended the ban because the states and the feds had yet to agree on a classification.
  • Leyonhjelm says the Coalition welched on the deal. Which is true.
  • If the government had not welched on the deal, the Adler would have come into the country with the lowest possible rating.
  • Leyonhjelm still wants the ban lifted. He believes the Adler should be in the lowest category – which would make it most accessible.
  • Labor thinks the ban should stay in place but have not committed so far to whether it should be let in by state and feds.
  • I am seeking an answer from the government on which category the Adler should be in.

So there are two issues:

  1. Should the Adler be allowed in at all?
  2. If so, what category should it be in?

This has allowed many straw men to flourish.

The National Firearms Agreement – or the Howard gun laws – will still be in place, no matter what the outcome for the Adler. Because this is the framework for the gun laws.

This means that the government can say rightly they are still committed to the Howard gun laws.

But if the Adler is allowed in on the lowest category – as Leyonhjelm wants – there will be a more lethal weapon available to ordinary shooters.

Updated

AHRC president Gillian Triggs is being asked about complaints made under s18C of the Racial Discrimination Act in Senate estimates.

Triggs notes that s18D provides an exemptions for works that are done reasonably and in good faith. Those include fair and accurate reports or comments, and publications with a “genuine academic, artistic or scientific purpose”. Triggs notes that protects cartoons.

Senator David Fawcett asks why the AHRC doesn’t throw out unmeritorious complaints quicker to prevent a chilling effect on speech.

Triggs replies:

We have no decision-making power, we are not a judicial body … We have an obligation under the statute to consider the matter and conciliate the complaint.

She said if parliament doesn’t like it, it can change the act.

Updated

The Fixer.

Leader of the House Christopher Pyne talks to the member for Kennedy Bob Katter.
Leader of the House Christopher Pyne talks to the member for Kennedy Bob Katter. Photograph: Mike Bowers for the Guardian

Nicely placed folder by Cathy McGowan. Ten points for product placement.

Senator David Leyonhjelm earlier today.
Senator David Leyonhjelm earlier today. Photograph: Mike Bowers for the Guardian

The votes continued. Plibersek is shut down. Now a procedural vote before the substantial motion.

To be clear:

The house just voted to gag Shorten. That vote passed.

The house is now voting to gag Tanya Plibersek.

Labor suspends standing orders on the gun laws issue.

The house votes...

Every government question apart from the one to Joyce on water has been on the CFMEU, the ABCC and Labor links ...

The immigration minister, Peter Dutton, goes furthest.

The fact is Labor renewed the visa of a bikie in this country who was known to be involved in organised crime. There are links between the Labor party, the CFMEU and outlawed motorcycle gangs. That is indisputable. These people are accepting money from the CFMEU in the millions of dollars. The CFMEU supports the bikies because the bikies provide the muscle on building sites. These facts can’t be disputed.

Updated

Shorten to Turnbull: Can the prime minister confirm that he has spoken directly to Senator Leyonhjelm about the ban on the lever-action Adler shotgun? Has he seen reports that Senator Leyonhjelm has told Sky News that the prime minister was willing to discuss the regulation of the Adler gun in connection with support for the ABCC legislation?

Unlike the honourable member who just asked me this question, I respect all of the senators.

Turnbull goes through the history again and then ends with this:

Senator Leyonhjelm has a view about what that classification should be and he is entitled to that view. He’s entitled to express it to me or to any other minister. But what he has not proposed, at least not in my hearing, is any weakening of the National Firearms Agreement as it stands. He has a view as to the manner in which it should be strengthened. He is entitled to have that view as indeed are other shooter organisations and their representatives. The government, of course, listens to those views as I’m sure justice ministers and premiers in other jurisdictions do as well.

Updated

How to win friends and influence people, starring Ian Macdonald

Senator Ian Macdonald is grilling the Australian Human Rights Commission’s Gillian Triggs about her commentary that politicians are “ill-informed”.

MacDonald has accidentally called Triggs “senator” several times, then, as an aside, remarks that it is because she would fit into the category of the “ill-informed”.

Labor senators ask him to withdraw the remark but he refuses. When Labor senators argue Macdonald is badgering the witness, he replied:

It’s typical of the left that when you’re trying to question somebody they object at every opportunity.”

Greens senator Nick McKim moves for the committee to suspend, prompting attorney general George Brandis to remark it is a “standard technique of the left”.

The motion is put to a vote and it is tied three-all. MacDonald uses his casting vote to continue the hearing.

Updated

Shorten to Keenan: I refer to the Minister’s previous answer where he explained that the only influence for lifting the ban on rapid fire lever action shotguns after 12 months was the negotiation with the States. Why then was he offering or his office was offering the sunset clause in return to secure votes in the Senate on completely unrelated legislation?

Same answer.

Labor gets down to the Keenan-Leyonhjelm deal.

Labor to Keenan: I refer to this email from your office to Senator Leyonhjelm’s office dated 12 August 2015 at 10.36am that confirms the minister and minister Dutton on behalf of the Coalition government agree to insert a sunset clause on the banning of particular lever action shotguns in exchange for Senator Leyonhjelm’s support in the Senate. Does the minister consider it acceptable that he was prepared to trade off John Howard’s gun laws in order to secure support for legislation in the Senate?

Keenan:

The government has always been 100% clear in our position that we will restrict their import until we get an agreement with the States about where they were to be classified. I would very much like that conversation was concluded within those 12 months but it wasn’t so we’ve subsequently extended the ban until we reach that agreement. It is very straightforward.

Updated

Dixer to Barnaby Joyce: What is the government doing to ensure all Australians, including the great Australians in Mallee, that they have access to reliable water supply? Is the minister aware of any threats to the delivery of reliable water infrastructure?

Andrew Wilkie, independent, asks Turnbull:

Ray Williams was a peacekeeper in Beirut during the civil war. He was shot at and shelled but had no weapon, body armour or support. He suffers PTSD. Remarkably Ray has been fighting for 18 years to have his service recognised as warlike. Yes, there is a review into service ... but it has been going for years and will likely outlive the veterans. Prime minister, do you agree everyone injured or wounded in the ADF, wherever they’ve served, should be given the same high level of support and will you stop the bureaucratic nonsense, order the UNSO review finalised and help veterans like Ray Williams?

Turnbull says the review will be completed later this year.

I want to reassure the honourable member and all veterans that the Department of Veterans’ Affairs will continue to look after them. That is our obligation.

But the PM does not answer the question about the substance – that is will all veterans be treated the same in terms of support.

Updated

Labor to the justice minister, Michael Keenan: Since coming to office in 2013, has the minister ever offered to weaken Australia’s gun laws for support in the Senate?

Just pause there so that I can give you another quote from David Leyonhjelm:

When I protested, I was told by minister Keenan we never intended to allow that into the country anyway. So in other words the agreement was made in bad faith. So I have made my displeasure known to the government ever since August this year. It has been two months since I was aware that they had no intention of sticking by the agreement. I have whinged at them on occasional ... They are well aware of my displeasure. And now, all of a sudden, they want my support on the ABCC bill.

In answer to the Labor question, Keenan goes through the timeline Turnbull did earlier.

But he does not touch on the earlier deal with Leyonhjelm.

Updated

Shorten to Turnbull: Since coming to office in 2013, has the Coalition government or any of its ministers offered or agreed to weaken Australia’s gun laws in return for support in the Senate?

Labor is trying to get to the deal with Abbott.

Which is why Turnbull repeats his earlier answer and says:

I can speak for myself. I have not been asked – no, I have not been asked and I don’t believe – I am not aware of any minister being asked to weaken the National Firearms Agreement.

Updated

More Turnbull on guns. I give you a large quote because it is important to know the history.

Under the National Firearms Agreement, honourable members should be aware lever-action shotguns are listed as Category A, which makes them subject to the regulations we have around firearms, readily able to be acquired by people who conform with the necessary regulations.

Last year ... there was a proposal to import a large number of lever-action shotguns, the Adler shotguns. What that meant was that, in the views of many law enforcement officials, the 1996 National Firearms Agreement, John Howard’s gun laws if you like, had not kept up with technology.

There was a need for the Council of Australian Police Ministers, justice ministers, the law, crime and community safety council to consider this matter and the commonwealth has sought for them to reach consensus and reclassify these lever-action guns.

Because there had been a failure to reach that consensus, the government imposed a ban on importing lever-action shotguns of more than five rounds. So that was not designed to weaken or vary John Howard’s gun laws.

It was to hold the ring and prevent the lever-action guns of that capacity to be imported at all. That ban had a 12-month duration. When it came up for expiry, it was renewed. The minister is working hard to ensure his counterparts in the states agree on a reclassification of these guns.

Updated

Turnbull rules out watering down Howard gun laws

Shorten to Turnbull: This morning the prime minister was asked what should be the easiest question a Liberal or Labor prime minister is ever expected to answer. Given the prime minister refused to give a direct answer, I ask again: Will the prime minister rule out weakening John Howard’s gun laws as a part of horse trading in the Senate?

This is a much stronger statement from Turnbull than this morning.

There is no prospect, no chance of my government ... weakening, watering down John Howard’s gun laws. And I might say there is no proposal being made to do so.

Updated

Malcolm Turnbull thanks the defence forces as does Bill Shorten as he begins his statement.

Shorten:

Retaking Mosul may not be achieved quickly and victory will not come easy to the Iraqi military or the Iraqi people but, for the sake of all the people suffering and dying at the hands after this hateful extremism, it must be done. Restoring the territorial integrity of Iraq is vital and the rights of its diverse population. It is equally important the Western world plays its part in building the infrastructure of peace.

Updated

The first statement from the prime minister is on the progress of the war against Daesh or Isil on the eve of the battle for Mosul.

Turnbull:

This will be a terrible battle to recapture Mosul. Mr Speaker, the defeat of Daesh is critical for Iraq, for the region and for Australia. From Daesh-controlled territory in Iraq and Syria, this Islamist terrorist network has directed and inspired attacks in Australia and around the world...taking back Mosul and the destruction of Daesh’s so-called caliphate is a military and strategic imperative. But let me be very clear. It will not mark the end of this conflict. There will be a need to establish order and maintain stability. Tasks which could be even more direct and protracted than the recapture of the city.

The United Nations special rapporteur Michel Forst has delivered a report of preliminary findings about Australia’s treatment of defenders of human rights.

Before my colleague Paul Karp provides a full report on its findings, here’s one tidbit suggesting those consulted were no fans attorney-general George Brandis’s decision to appoint Tim Wilson to the Australian Human Rights Commission:

I have also noted with concerns the direct appointment of a commissioner by the attorney-general without any prior advertisement, transparency, or consultation with the parliament, contrary to the provisions required by the Paris principles which questions the attempts of the government to take control of its human rights institution.”

Leyonhjelm has released letters and complained the Turnbull government has now dudded him on the Abbott government’s deal. He reads out a government email to him:

We confirm ministers Dutton and minister Keenan have agreed the government will amend the limited imports regulation to insert a sunset clause which banned the lever action short guns importation with a magazine capacity of more than five rounds. The effect of the sunset clause would be that 12 months after this amendment comes into effect, the ban would automatically cease to be in place.

We also confirm the government commitment to ongoing consultation between minister Keenan and a wide range of key stakeholders...in return David Leyonhjelm will vote against the migration amendment strengthening biometric integrity bill 2015. Please confirm David Leyonhjelm’s agreement. That agreement was confirmed.

Q: That was an ironclad agreement?

I treated it as an ironclad agreement. In August this year they reintroduced the ban on the seven shot Adler in contravention of this agreement, says Leyonhjelm.

Aforementioned David Leyonhjelm:

Q: Could you perhaps explain to people who don’t own guns why one would need a shotgun that can carry 10 bullets instead of five? What is the practical purpose?

I am a libertarian and I don’t answer questions like that. My response to that is, why shouldn’t they have a shotgun that carries more than five rounds?

Q: What does it allow the user to do?

If you are shooting pigs, for example, which is, in my view, practical environmental management, because they are nasty, feral animals in the wild and should all be shot. They frequently have substantial litters and so if you have more than five rounds you might kill the entire litter rather than miss some and reload. Shotguns, with the magazine, are slow to reload. Having seven rounds might mean you clean up the litter and rid the country of more pigs.

Updated

I feel the day is accelerating which I did not think was possible.

Thanks to the readers for #CrowdFactcheck – my new thing – for pointing out the deal that Tony Abbott did with Leyonjhelm in 2015.

This was the story at the time:

The federal government has agreed to allow the importation of a controversial shotgun in one year’s time, in exchange for the support of a crossbench senator on migration issues.

The government temporarily suspended the importation of the Adler lever-action shotgun in July, while it reviewed firearms laws in the wake of the Martin Place siege.

Gun control advocates oppose its importation because of its fast firing rate and seven-shot magazine.

The government has now agreed to introduce a sunset clause, as part of a deal with NSW Liberal Democratic senator David Leyonhjelm.

“These firearms are not dangerous, they aren’t used in crime, there’s nothing about them that warrants any special action,” Senator Leyonhjelm said.

“Nonetheless, there are some people who don’t like guns and they see this as the next area in which they can encroach.”

Updated

Innovation and excitement: electronic voting in the house

Meanwhile, in the Coalition party room – there are a couple of things to know. The first is both the prime minister, Malcolm Turnbull, and the deputy prime minister, Barnaby Joyce, have told colleagues the government has to make their policies more “tactile.”

Yes, it does sound vaguely disturbing but I gather it means the government needs to talk about policies that have real impacts on real people.

The other main thing to know from today is that, courtesy of a discussion in the party room kicked off by Kevin Andrews, Christopher Pyne will now bring a submission to cabinet considering introducing electronic voting in the House of Representatives.

Government MPs were concerned that a whole lot of time gets wasted in the House during votes. There was talk of MPs being given a card that they could insert into a reader to record their presence during votes, rather than the current practice of whips counting numbers.

MPs would still required to be present during votes, they couldn’t just say aye or nay from their offices. I’m honestly not sure how having a card would save time if you’ve got to show up, but there it is. Apparently the foreign affairs minister, Julie Bishop, said during the conversation the Ukraine had this system, and Singapore had that system.

And so it goes.

Updated

Back in Legal and Constitutional Affairs committee. Liberal senator Linda Reynolds is still questioning Human Rights Commission president Gillian Triggs about the Saturday Paper. It seems she - the senator - finds some of the references hurtful. This is the interview she references.

One can be astonished at the very simplistic level at which I need to speak. Our parliamentarians are usually seriously ill-informed and uneducated. All they know is the world of Canberra and politics and they’ve lost any sense of a rule of law, and curiously enough for Canberra they don’t even understand what democracy is. Not an easy argument to make, as you can imagine: me telling a parliamentarian they need to be better educated. [laughs] But it’s true.

Ramona Koval: Have you done that?

Oh, I have. And I have to say that some parliamentarians, and surprising ones, a Nationals MP, says “Come and give us a seminar.” Another one asked me to come up and work in parliament with the members of a particular committee that she was on. Terrific! But they listened to me and do you know, the response of some of them was, “Well, we had no idea Australia had signed up to these treaties. We should withdraw from them!” So backward steps! You still hear people say we must withdraw from the Refugee Convention or we must withdraw from the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

It seems Reynolds is trying to get a lot of these comments into the attention and Hansard.

Reynolds then quotes another speech Triggs gave about the suitability of lawyers helping governments to draft laws that contravene treaties. Reynolds questions this opinion questioning others in her own profession. Triggs points out she was giving the speech to young lawyers (whom she mentors) and they were after something “edgy”.

Essentially it would appear Reynolds is trying to paint her as interventionist in her role. Reynolds says much of it is Triggs “opinion”.

My mandate is the human rights under the international treaties.

From Jasper Lindell:

The United Nationals special rapporteur on the situation of human rights defenders, Michel Forst, has called on the Australian government to enact an action plan on human rights in response to the “chilling effect” of wide-ranging measures that have mounted pressure on human rights defenders.

The statement outlined concerns including

  • defunding community legal centres,
  • legislative measures preventing environmental activists from seeking judicial intervention against mining and other developments,
  • attacked the increasing number of secrecy provisions.

These ‘unnecessarily restrict access to government information’, Forst says.

Forst also criticised the Border Force Act, which criminalises whistleblowers speaking out against practices on offshore detention centres. He noted that people who had worked at the offshore detention centres did not speak with him out of fear of retaliation.

Forst refused to be drawn on whether the Border Force Act had detrimentally affected the conditions on Manus Island and Nauru detention centres, saying his “role was not to investigate conditions on Manus Island and Nauru”.

A UN report into conditions in the detention centre will be released in November, Forst said.

He also criticised politicians and the media for “seriously [attacking] senior officials”, including the president of the Human Rights Commission, Prof Gillian Triggs. He said that he “had not been informed of any investigation into the attacks”.

Updated

SBS is up at estimates. The managing director, Michael Ebeid, is giving an opening address.

He says SBS TV is now watched by 14m people a month, which he says is quite an achievement on a modest budget.

Ebeid says technology gives SBS more chances to spread the multicultural message and the benefits of diversity.

Ebeid says he has met the new ABC managing director, Michelle Guthrie, but the topic of merging the ABC with SBS has not been discussed.
Ebeid says he is opposed to the idea, raised by Guthrie’s predecessor, Mark Scott, because SBS is needed far more now than it ever was. Merging it with the ABC is a bad idea because it plays a role in social cohesion, Ebeid says.

Updated

Lunchtime politics

  • Malcolm Turnbull says any claim by Amnesty that the government’s detention practices amounted to torture was “absolutely false”.
  • Anthony Albanese says his Labor colleague Gavin Marshall’s comments about his colleagues said more about Marshall than anyone else. Marshall threatened to come after fellow Labor MP Andrew Giles and Catherine King.
  • After David Leyonhjelm said he would cross-trade on guns in return for the government’s IR bills, Turnbull backed in Howard’s gun reforms but did not go into his negotiations. He therefore did not rule out weakening the laws. Labor picked up this point and ran with it in when parliament opened. At the same time – and almost as if it had been coordinated with Labor moves in the House – Tony Abbott tweeted he was horrified by reports of horse-trading. Turnbull says nonsense, we support Howard’s reforms and want to make them stronger, which includes stronger penalties for firearms, which the Labor party has opposed.
  • Penny Wong and George Brandis are continuing the Senate estimates dance, mostly regarding former freedom commissioner and now Liberal MP Tim Wilson and his fundraising activities. We learned that relations between Gillian Triggs and George Brandis have been normalised since the unedifying appearance in previous estimates hearings’.

Updated

DON’T SHOUT!

Our favourite legal and constitutional affairs committee has broken for lunch.

As have the others. Chairman Ian Macdonald did counsel people to get food and not survive on snakes and lollies.

Updated

Labor’s new strong man.

Tony Abbott helping his prime minister on guns.
Tony Abbott helping his prime minister on guns. Photograph: Mike Bowers for the Guardian

Tony Burke says that, unless the Coalition supports Labor’s motion, they cannot be trusted not to water down the gun laws.

A vote on the motion is deferred.

The House in on to the vocational education bills.

Updated

Malcolm Turnbull says:

Let me be very clear ... we stand by John Howard’s gun reforms.

The Adler is a seven-shot lever-action gun.

Turnbull says the Adler gun is category A, the easiest guns of four categories to acquire.

That is why there has been an import ban. But its classification still has to be considered by the Coag group that does these things.

Turnbull says his government has ensured that no lever-action guns with more than five rounds can be imported.

We stand by the agreement and want to see it stronger, says Turnbull.

Labor’s attempt to use this is a disgrace, he says.

Updated

Tanya Plibersek now speaks.

Everyone in Australia would remember exactly where they were when they heard of the Port Arthur massacre.

Turnbull does not look happy.

We want to get on with the business of government, says Pyne.

He notes Turnbull wants to speak.

Bill Shorten ends, saying at least Tony Abbott is strong.

Gawd.

Now Christopher Pyne is responding, stepping everyone through the Labor factional wars.

The prime minister appears.

At the very same time that Labor moves their motion:

Here to help.

This is the Labor motion:

That the House:

1. Notes that:

a) This morning, there are reports the prime minister will do a deal on gun laws to pass the Abbott government’s industrial relations bills; and

b) The prime minister has on at least five occasions just this morning refused to rule out trading away John Howard’s gun laws to pass the Abbott government’s industrial relations bills; and

2. Therefore, the House resolves that:

a) It will never put the safety of Australians at risk by trading away John Howard’s gun laws to pursue an Abbott government attack on workers; and

b) It will never water down Australia’s gun laws.

Updated

Bill Shorten on the Coalition:

This is not the party of John Howard anymore ... they are not fit to clean his shoes on this issue.

He notes Howard opposes the watering down on laws for the Adler shotgun.

A reminder: Senate crossbencher David Leyonjhelm wants to horse-trade to allow the Adler into Australia in return for his vote on the ABCC.

This morning, Turnbull supported Howard’s gun reforms but said he would not flag his negotiations in the media.

Updated

From an ABC News spokesperson:

The Four Corners report ‘The Forgotten Children’ told the story of the more than 100 refugee children who are living on Nauru, recognised as refugees and released from detention but trapped in a legal limbo. It was an important story, of obvious public interest. ABC News and Four Corners stand by the report and reject the claims of the government of Nauru. The interviews with the children were conducted remotely by Four Corners and their stories were subjected to the program’s usual rigorous fact-checking processes. The program was made in this way because the Nauruan government routinely refuses journalists access to report on offshore processing and charges prohibitive fees for media visas, which are not refunded if the applications are refused.

Updated

Labor moves to suspend standing orders on gun laws

The House has begun.

Labor moves immediately to suspend standing orders on reports that Malcolm Turnbull may weaken John Howard’s gun laws.

The prime minister is willing to risk more guns on the streets for one vote in the Senate.

Updated

We are back.

The Greens senator Nick McKim asks Ian Macdonald to allow Penny Wong to answer George Brandis’ claim that Wong attacking someone’s human rights on the basis of a relationship is a serious accusation.

Macdonald says there is no point of order. He simply stopped the committee because everyone was shouting. [Irony font]

I won’t have anyone shouting over anyone else.

Brandis repeats his assertion.

Wong says it is demonstrably untrue and beneath contempt.

The flier for the function says the cheques for $40 were made payable to the Liberal party.

Macdonald said at $40 it would hardly be a fundraiser.

Updated

Penny Wong has come back with Tim Wilson’s attendance at a Liberal party event.

Brandis seeks clarification on a question.

Wong:

Would just like to be pompous the whole day?

Brandis:

You’re just being boorish now.

Wong is seeking to separate Wilson’s appearances at Liberal party functions in a private capacity and a public capacity as human rights commissioner.

Brandis says Wilson did not attend Liberal party events while a human rights commissioner but he accompanied his fiance, who was a member of the Liberal party. He went along as a “plus one”, says Brandis.

Wong says Wilson was headlining the role for a Liberal party fundraiser – that is, he was the main attraction at the fundraiser. Brandis starts on human rights of individuals and their relationships.

He doesn’t have a human right to use his position to generate funds for the Liberal party, says Wong.

You of all people, says Brandis.

That is not the case, the attorney general is seeking to avoid the answer.

Macdonald stops the hearing and the feed goes dead and we cut to a flourish of fairy tale music, which was quite appropriate.

Updated

Greens senator McKim goes to the Amnesty report. He says the committee heard from the immigration department that Australia was not in breach of refugee convention.

Triggs says the commission has been on record as being in breach of the refugee convention in a number of aspects of detention.

Brandis says the government does not accept the view that Australia is in breach of the convention.

McKim says, you honestly think that Australia is not refouling refugees?

Brandis said no.

McKim:

By turning boats back at sea, we are not refouling refugees?

Brandis says no, in many more words than that.

The Greens senator Nick McKim is asking about the Opcat (convention on torture). Triggs sees the “enormous importance” of the ratification. McKim tries to draw out a judgment at the slowness of the ratification process by the government.

She says it is not up to her to express those “emotions”.

Updated

The Liberal senator Ian Macdonald accuses Labor senator Penny Wong of talking over others.

Penny Wong cracks up.

Senator Penny Wong.
Senator Penny Wong. Photograph: Mike Bowers for the Guardian

Updated

Nauru government accuses Four Corners of coaching kids

From AAP:

The Nauru government has accused the ABC Four Corners program of coaching refugee children for its documentary about the plight of youngsters detained on the island nation.

It claimed the ABC did not seek comment from the Nauru government before airing the “wild and unsubstantiated” claims by “discredited” former detention welfare services provider Save the Children.

“It was clear that these children were coached, and that the entire process of filming the refugees was stage-managed, as the program has not been to Nauru,” the government said in a statement.

The government accused the ABC of biased political propaganda, saying the report was an embarrassment to journalism.

“From start to finish it was denigrating, racist, false and pure political activism,” it said.

The show aired footage of Nauruans belting-up each other. But the government maintained Nauru was not a violent country and had a lower crime rate than Australia.

Comment has been sought from the ABC.

Updated

Rosie Lewis of the Oz reports this morning on a bluetooth watch and a minister.

A bluetooth watch given to infrastructure minister Paul Fletcher by Chinese company Huawei has come under heavy scrutiny after Labor suggested it could pose a security risk but the piece has never been worn by its owner.

Labor Senate leader Penny Wong took interest in the watch after it was declared on Mr Fletcher’s updated register of members’ interests alongside a Chinese teapot from the same company.

Senator Wong used Senate estimates yesterday to ask the Department of Parliamentary Services if it had “any concerns” about a device provided by Huawei being connected to its computer network, noting there were a “range of security concerns” on the public record about the telecoms giant.

The former Labor government banned Huawei from participating in the rollout of the National Broadband Network on the basis of security advice from the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation and the Defence Intelligence Organisation.

The Abbott government kept the ban in place.

DPS said intelligence agencies recommended hardware such as USBs received from external sources should not be connected to the parliamentary networks.

But the department assured Senator Wong there was malware detection software that initiated anti-virus checks upon connection.

Fletcher says its all G because he does not wear the watch.

That wag Bowers is amused.

Tea, anyone?

Teapot with microphone in the spout
Teapot with microphone in the spout. Photograph: Mike Bowers for the Guardian

Updated

The disability discrimination commissioner, Alastair McEwin, before the Senate legal and constitutional affairs committee
The disability discrimination commissioner, Alastair McEwin, before the Senate legal and constitutional affairs committee. Photograph: Mike Bowers for the Guardian

Updated

Senator Linda Reynolds has begun on Gillian Triggs.

She asks about a Triggs quote in an interview, here in the Saturday Paper.

Ramona Koval asked:

You’ve said, ‘When I was younger I thought one could build on the past. But I have learned that we need to be eternally vigilant in ensuring human rights in a modern democracy.’ Is that a sense of an idea of conservatism, building on the past, not letting go of good things that have been achieved? And feeling that confidence in that idea has been shaken?

Triggs said this:

A shocking phenomenon is Australians don’t even understand their own democratic system. They are quite content to have parliament be complicit with passing legislation to strengthen the powers of the executive and to exclude the courts. They have no idea of the separation of powers and the excessive overreach of executive government.

Reynolds says she understands the need for better civic education but not Triggs’ cynicism about the Australian people.

A conversation ensues about the role of parliamentarians and Triggs’ role.

Updated

Pollies v press this morning.

Annual pollies versus press basketball match.
Annual pollies versus press basketball match. Photograph: Mike Bowers for the Guardian

As Mike Bowers was heard to utter, float like a butterball, sting like a flea.

There is speculation that Labor MP Ed Husic simply organises this as a chance to beat up on journalists.

The attorney general, George Brandis, the race discrimination commissioner, Dr Tim Soutphommasane, and the Human Rights Commission president, Gillian Triggs, before the Senate legal and constitutional affairs committee
The attorney general, George Brandis, the race discrimination commissioner, Dr Tim Soutphommasane, and the Human Rights Commission president, Gillian Triggs, before the Senate legal and constitutional affairs committee. Photograph: Mike Bowers for the Guardian

Updated

Will nobody think of Barry Gibb?

I did forget there was party room meetings today. Caucus is breaking so we will have some reports from that shortly.

The attorney general is listing all the funding relating to ice addiction for Jacqui Lambie.

Brandis says there is no insufficiency in our laws in relation to ice.

There are very strong laws with very strong penalties.

But Lambie is particularly concerned about the rights of parents for drug-addicted kids. Brandis says he will have a “good constructive talk” with her.

Updated

Turnbull answered a few extra questions at a doorstop.

Q: David Leyonhjelm says that the government welched on a deal with him last year about the sunset clause for the Adler shotgun. He thinks that he has been treated poorly. Do you think he has got any grounds for those concerns?

Turnbull:

David Leyonhjelm and I have discussed the matter and I’ll be working hard to ensure that any concerns or disappointment he has is addressed.

Thanks to Jasper Lindell, aspiring journalist, who is helping out today. Bless him for taking one of the hearings on:

Senator David Leyonhjelm has just recovered from a coughing fit in the Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee.

WA Labor senator Glen Sterle broke from questions to wonder whether someone was getting him a defibrillator.

He might be joining his friend, ex Senator Day soon.

Senator Sterle was asking the Rural Industries Research and Development Corporation managing director, John Harvey, about rent arrangements for the Australian Pesticides and Veterinary Medicines Authority in light of its move to Wagga Wagga.

Hearing that rent was cheaper than the previous Canberra office, Sterle also joked:

Maybe we should move the parliament out there.

Jacqui Lambie wants to know from the attorney general, George Brandis, why the government is not ratifying the optional protocol on the convention against torture (Opcat).

Brandis says the government supports the principles in Opcat.

He says a number of steps need to happen first, including consultations with states and territories. It is on the agenda for the next Coag meeting for attorneys general on Friday.

Updated

Jacquie Lambie asks Triggs about the rights of families and access to mental health services for ice-addicted children. She is getting to the ability of parents to compel ice addicts into medical intervention.

Triggs takes the question regarding compulsion on notice.

Updated

Watts is digging to see if he was still on the public purse while starting his preselection process. Triggs said he was careful to discuss his resignation quickly.

Murray Watts asks if Triggs is sure that former freedom commissioner Tim Wilson didn’t undertake political campaigning or attend events while he was on the payroll of the HRC.

As far as she knows, he did not breach the guidelines.

Brandis:

Thank you very much Prof Triggs for that answer.

Watts says, so he did attend Liberal events on the public purse?

He attended various political parties’ events in his advocacy role for the Human Rights Act, says Brandis.

That included the Labor party if they wanted to engage with him on human rights issues.

So which ones? Brandis said he attended a Greens events. But he cannot say whether Wilson attended National party events.

Updated

Gillian Triggs says there is a cap for commissioners’ expenses. There is a high level of discretion for commissioners to spend their budget. She says new commissioners often spend more in the first year because they travel extensively to consult. Then it settles down.

There is also family reunion expenses and living away from home allowances.

Triggs says the annual cap is $30,000. Watt points out in Wilson’s first year, he spent $77,000. Triggs will get back to him on the reasons for the overspend.

Brandis intervenes for Wilson, his appointee and friend. He points out that the commission’s headquarters are in Sydney and he lives in Melbourne.

Watts says he is sure no one would be qualified for the job in Sydney.

Brandis asks:

Are you suggesting only people in Sydney should be qualified for the job?

Updated

The Labor senator Murray Watt asks about former freedom commissioner Tim Wilson’s expenses. Wilson is of course now MP for Goldstein.

Updated

The Greens senator Lee Rhiannon accuses senator David Leyonhjelm of horse trading.

There should not be horse-trading on these bills. It is so important that we do not let our stringent gun laws slip away by bartering over bills like this.

The ABCC is a piece of anti-worker legislation. It has nothing to do with cracking down on corruption, it is about union busting.

We know the Turnbull government is desperate to resurrect the ABCC bill but are they so desperate that they are willing to relax sensible gun laws that keep our communities safe?

Updated

Albo whacks colleague Gavin Marshall: his comments say more about him than others

Senior Labor left shadow minister Anthony Albanese has responded to comments by senator Gavin Marshall, an ally of Kim Carr, threatening colleagues’ preselection.

At a press conference in Canberra, Albanese said:

I have seen the comments about not just Andrew Giles but Catherine King and Jenny Macklin – they are all valued colleagues, they are all frontbench colleagues, they’re all playing a significant role in the parliament. And they have, I think, the support of everyone not just here but importantly the people in their respective electorates, which is why they were all returned on July 2 at the federal election.

Albanese said Marshall’s comments “speak for themselves” and “say more about senator Marshall than they do about the colleagues he’s disparaged”.

Asked about the preselection of Kimberley Kitching for Stephen Conroy’s Senate vacancy, Albanese said it was a matter for the Victorian branch and he did not have a vote but noted that Kitching had the support of “some significant figures” in the Victorian branch (read: leader Bill Shorten).

The preselection was conducted in accordance with the rules, Albanese said, but noted he has previously called for ALP members to have votes in all Senate preselections.

Updated

The deputy prime minister, Barnaby Joyce, made the decision earlier this year to move offices of the Grains Research and Development Corporation from Canberra to regional areas.

On Wednesday Mr Joyce announced three Canberra-based research organisations will have work shifted out of the national capital.

The Grains Research and Development Corporation, based in Barton at the foot of Parliament House, will have four offices outside Canberra at Dubbo, Toowoomba, Adelaide and Perth even though the GRDC recently signed a new lease.

AusTender documents say the 10-year, $12.2m lease for the grains corporation’s office in Barton was signed in December 2013 and expired in 2024.

The tweet below lists the costs related to those moves.

It is timely given the controversial decision by Joyce to move the APVMA offices out of Canberra to his own electorate. In the context of the election.

Updated

There is a fair bit of tension in the room in this estimates.

Fawcett’s questioning was controlled and Soutphommasane was not backing off.

Now the Liberal senator Linda Reynolds is asking Triggs how she sees her role. Obviously the Coalition is trying to catch her out overstepping the mark. Triggs is walking carefully.

Perhaps what you are getting at is what is our mandate ...

Updated

Triggs is asked by the Coalition senator David Fawcett about the complaint about the Bill Leak cartoon on the grounds of 18c.

Triggs says she cannot speak about individual complaints.

This was reported in the Oz:

Bill Leak and the Australian are staring down a Human Rights Commission challenge under section 18C, 10 weeks after the cartoonist’s provocative drawing led to a public debate over Indigenous parental neglect.

Commission president Gil­lian Triggs’s delegate, Jodie Ball, has written to the newspaper’s lawyers to advise that allegations of racial hatred under the Racial Discrimination Act will be investigated.

The allegations are in a complaint by Melissa Dinnison over Leak’s August 4 cartoon, which prompted widespread commendation and criticism for its blunt portrayal of a crisis in Aboriginal parenting.

Fawcett suggests the cartoon presented a good image of a police officer in authority.

Triggs won’t bite so Fawcett moves to race commissioner Tim Soutphommasane about his comments about the cartoon and his assessment about “racial stereotyping”. Soutphommasane points out that his comments are appropriate because he has no role in the complaints process and does not judge the complaints.

Updated

For #agrinerds...

Brandis also intervened, reminding Macdonald he could stop the hearings.

Macdonald mentions that Senate president Stephen Parry had to counsel Wong for her behaviour in the chamber.

Updated

Gillian Triggs tells Wong she has not been offered any other jobs since the last estimates hearing – a reference to Brandis offering her another job.

Triggs says relations with Brandis’ office have “normalised”.

Macdonald intervenes to stop questioning.

Wong says she was not surprised he intervened (given his behaviour at solicitor general Justin Gleeson’s hearing).

You are a bully, that is the reality, says Wong to Macdonald.

Macdonald threatens to suspend the committee until she plays by the rules.

That means you don‘t talk over people, especially the chairman.

Wong says the whole of Australia saw his behaviour.

Macdonald says:

I am the chairman.

Wong says she is allowed to ask these questions.

Updated

Come back Ewen Jones.

Wong asks about protection for the LGBTI community for offensive or insulting comments given there is for similar comments on racial grounds.

Triggs says none that she knows of apart from defamation.

Penny Wong is in the building, indeed the room.

Wong asks Triggs about her comments that moves to suspend discrimination laws for the plebiscite would be a “disgraceful way of dealing with the issue”.

Updated

Ian Macdonald welcomes the president of the Australian Human Rights Commission, Gillian Triggs. George Brandis opens with introductions for the new appointments.

Edward Santow replaced Tim Wilson, now Liberal MP for Goldstein, Alastair McEwin is the new disability commissioner, Kay Patterson, age discrimination commissioner.

Updated

Oh good. Senator Ian Macdonald is in charge of the legal and constitutional affairs estimates committee. The best thing is that I can say what I like about him because he revealed yesterday – SHOCK HORROR – that he doesn’t read the Guardian.

Updated

Don’t forget there is a chamber running as well.

We have the three VET bills:

  • VET Student Loans
  • VET Student Loans (Consequential Amendments and Transitional Provisions
  • VET Student Loans (Charges)
  • Then the ABCC bill
  • Then the resumption of plebiscite debate

Updated

Cruel, that Wong.

Of course estimates continue on, as they did until 11pm last night.

First up this morning we have the Human Rights Commission, the attorney general’s department more generally, the department of finance, the commonwealth director of public prosecutions, ABC and SBS. And the lower house. Pity me ...

In 12-hour hearings, things get a bit willing. They also get more relaxed towards the later stages of the evening, as revealed in this little exchange last night with and around Margaret Stone, inspector general of intelligence and security.

Brandis:

You know, Justice Stone, it is sometimes difficult to explain to politicians how lawyers are very precise in their use of language.

Stone:

Um, so, putting that aside …

Xenophon:

Are you implying that I’m not a very good lawyer, attorney?

Brandis:

I wasn’t thinking of you Senator Xenophon. I must confess I do not think of you as a politician.

Wong:

It’s alright, no one thinks of you as a lawyer either George.

Xenophon:

That’s not very nice.

Wong:

He’s been a bit mean lately. Keeps misleading parliament.

Updated

Good morning people,

Seven months ago, Malcolm Turnbull declared the “times for games is over” and threatened to take the country to a double-dissolution election if his industrial relations bills were blocked. It seemed like a good idea at the time but, after the election, the government benches were whittled back to a one seat majority.

The two bills would establish a Australian Building Construction Commission and regulate registered organisations, ie unions. Today the first bill returns to the house, in a neat two-step following Bill Shorten’s endorsement of former Health Services Union official Kimberley Kitching and an outbreak of factional farnarkling.

In an interview with Fran Kelly, Turnbull has, on the one hand, attacked union thuggery in the CFMEU and, on the other, endorsed the bills as a great thing for the health of unions.

This is not anti-union. This is not union busting. If the Labor party were to support this legislation, they would build public confidence in the unions, because the unions would be run in accordance with the law.

Kelly asks, why not get the Australian Securities and Investment Commission to regulate unions as they do the banks? Why bust unions and not banks? Turnbull says the government is doing lots on the bank front and now they are doing lots on the union front. He is an equal opportunity regulator.

Right across the board, what we’re doing is addressing the issues that have been raised and that’s what we’re doing in the industrial relations field too.

Overnight, you might have seen David Leyonhjelm has raised the prospect of horse trading over the ABCC bill. He wants a ban lifted on the importation of the Adler shotgun.

The regulation of firearms is dealt with by Coag in effect, by states and territories and the commonwealth working together and so the importation ban on the lever-action Adler shotgun, over more than five rounds, was introduced and has been maintained because of a failure to date of that state and territory group to reach a resolution on it.

So it is a collaborative effort. But I want to stress to you ... we have among the most, if not the most rigorous laws on the regulation of firearms in the world. It’s one of the great achievements of John Howard.

Fran: The world’s leading human rights body is accusing your government, our government, of torture. You need to respond to that, don’t you?

Well, I reject that claim totally, it is absolutely false ... And I just note that the minister, Mr Dutton, offered to go onto to the Four Corners program and be interviewed live to deal with those allegations and that offer was rejected.

Fran played some audio of one of the articulate children on the program last night.

We’ve heard from this young lady and it is, it is a ... It is a very sad story that she tells. But, you know, there are 1,200 people, many of them young women too, no doubt, from whom we can never hear, because they drowned at sea under the Labor party’s reckless failure to keep our borders safe.

Turnbull says the government is negotiating with other countries but he accuses “many people in Australia” of telling refugees to hold out in the hope of coming to Australia.

I know that’s a tough policy. I know that is hard. But the alternative is what we had under Labor – 50,000 unauthorised arrivals and 1,200 voices that were silenced, that cannot go on Four Corners, that cannot talk on Radio National because they drowned at sea.

On same-sex marriage, Turnbull says there was a still a chance the Senate could pass the bill, in spite of what “your fellow distinguished journalist, Katharine Murphy, from the Guardian said at a press conference.

Q: You think there’s still a chance it will pass?

Of course. Of course ...

Arguments ensue on the merits of the plebiscite ...

It is a perfectly reasonable argument to say this is not consistent with our parliamentary tradition. But the fact is it is perfectly democratic. It is a proposition that we took to the election. We won the election ... Why wouldn’t we grab this opportunity and say, “Look, it may not be the perfect way of resolving the matter from your point of view but grab it, it will be carried, it will be done.” Let’s get on with it.

Right, now that we are done with the War and Peace of first posts, I am @gabriellechan on the Twits, @mpbowers has some wonderful pics from the house games this morning.

Updated

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