Corbyn v Smith - Summary
Here are the key points from the hustings.
- Owen Smith says Labour should stop the UK leaving the EU. He reaffirmed his commitment to giving the people the chance to vote on the final Brexit deal, either in a second referendum or at an election. But he was also explicit about saying he wanted Labour to stop the UK leaving the EU. This came in a discussion with David Dimbleby.
DD: You said you would like to see Labour going into the next election saying our party policy is to go back into the EU.
OS: Yes.
DD: You ignore the Brexit vote.
OS: Exactly.
DD: Exactly?
OS: Exactly. We need to find out what it is. The Brexit vote set a direction, if we like. We don’t know where we’re going.
DD: You know where you are going. You are going back in.
OS: Well, I hope we are. And I think we should be strong about that.
Smith said Labour would be entitled to go against the referendum vote because people were lied to. But Jeremy Corbyn disagreed. He said parliament should accept the vote to leave the EU, but he said it was important to ensure that the Brexit deal protected workers rights.
- Smith claimed people around Corbyn were encouraging people with antisemitic views to join Labour. He said:
I think Jeremy has not been strong enough in speaking out against antisemitism ... Under Jeremy’s leadership we have seen people coming into Labour from the hard left of politics who are bringing in antisemitic attitudes ... Some of the people around Jeremy are encouraging it. There is absolutely no doubt.
Corbyn strongly objected, saying that Smith’s claim was unfair. “I have spent my life opposing racism in any form, as have you,” he told Smith.
- Corbyn said Labour should review the Shami Chakrabarti report in the future to see what progress was being made on tackling antisemitism.
- Corbyn said he wanted the UK to remain in the single market after Brexit “if it’s possible and I think it probably is”. Earlier this week one of his aides suggested Corbyn was not committed to full single market membership.
- Corbyn said he expected the Labour party to unite behind him if he won the leadership election.
I think after the election is over and after the conference is over you will see the wish of MPs to reflect the wishes of party members all over the country that there is a coming together in order to oppose this Tory government.
- Corbyn claimed that he could increase support for Labour through a political “re-energisation” that would mobilise people who had never voted in the past, like the young. He said:
The core vote ... is also a very large number of people who are intrinsically inclined towards Labour but have not bother to vote in the past. Only 47% of young people voted in the last general election. I tell you this now. There is a re-energisation in politics over the past year. Many of those that have joined the party, many of those that are very active in local groups, are very well connected with colleges, with universities, with young people at work. I tell you this; after this leadership [election] is over, there is going to be that energisation in politics which will challenge the Tories ...
A Labour opposition offering investment in a growing economy, a Labour opposition offering to invest, to drive down the inequalities in Britain and invest in a growing economy with sustainable jobs, I think that’s something that’s very attractive and will bring an awful lot of people over to Labour.
That’s all from me for tonight.
Thanks for the comments.
Updated
Here is my colleague Rowena Mason’s story about the debate.
I will post a summary with a further set of quotes shortly.
And here are some Tweets from Labour/left figures who are not Corbyn supporters.
From Adrian McMenamin, a former Labour special adviser and staffer
If you come at the king, you best not miss. Owen Smith's problem is not he's harsh about Corbyn: it's that he's not harsh enough.
— adrian mcmenamin (@adrianmcmenamin) September 8, 2016
From Nyta Mann, the former New Statesman journalists
Corbyn's talking rubbish, 3/4 of the audience crazily applauds him, and it really appears to be almost goodbye Labour. #bbcqt
— Nyta Mann (@nytamann) September 8, 2016
From David Boothroyd, a Labour councillor
If Jeremy Corbyn read out a dictionary his supporters would cheer and clap. If Owen Smith read out the 1945 manifesto they'd jeer him #bbcqt
— David Boothroyd (@220_d_92_20) September 8, 2016
This is from Jennie Formby, a senior Unite official being tipped as a possible Corbyn candidate to replace Iain McNicol (a none-Corbynite) as Labour’s general secretary.
#Corbyn measured & impressive. Big mistake by Smith to think constant personal attacks on JC will lead to victory; looking v petty #bbcqt
— Jennie Formby (@JennieUnite) September 8, 2016
This is from the New Statesman editor Jason Cowley.
Corbyn is right: to hold the referendum might have been a mistake but the result is final. There is no going back. Smith deluded. #BBCQT
— Jason Cowley (@JasonCowleyNS) September 8, 2016
And Owen Smith’s team have tweeted the message he mentioned during the debate from Corbyn supporters saying the SWP are welcome at a rally so long as they leave their banners behind.
Here's the advice Owen mentioned from the SWP telling members not to bring banners to Jeremy Corbyn rallies: pic.twitter.com/pA2cMXWaF7
— Owen Smith 2016 (@owensmith2016) September 8, 2016
This is from Jeremy Corbyn.
Thank you @OwenSmith_MP for good, constructive debate this evening. And thank you to all in the audience and to the BBC’s staff. #bbcqt
— Jeremy Corbyn MP (@jeremycorbyn) September 8, 2016
Here is some video of the selfie moment.
That awkward moment when the Oldham Question Time crowd walk past Owen Smith for that @JeremyCorbyn selfie. pic.twitter.com/6mQCYPrqiB
— Jeremy Corbyn for PM (@JeremyCorbyn4PM) September 8, 2016
This is from BuzzFeed’s Jamie Ross.
A sad moment at the end of #bbcqt as the crowd surround Corbyn for selfies as Smith walks off the stage. pic.twitter.com/uOsWZMSlfc
— Jamie Ross (@JamieRoss7) September 8, 2016
This, from the Telegraph’s Michael Wilkinson, reinforces the point I made earlier.
The best thing about #bbcqt with Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith? The End! An army of Corbynistas ran to JC for selfies on stage...
— Michael Wilkinson (@ThatMichaelW) September 8, 2016
Corbyn v Smith - Verdict
Corbyn v Smith - Verdict: Owen Smith is articulate and combative, but it feels as if he has not really found a way of dismantling Jeremy Corbyn’s appeal and in tonight’s hustings that showed. Having adopted large chunks of the Corbyn policy agenda, he has two main offers: competence/electability, and Europe. He was probably at his best in the early stages of the debate, talking about Labour’s performance in the polls but it did not feel as if his arguments, robust as they were, were going to make much impression on those like the “feel the love” Corbynista councillor. (See 9.10am.)
On Europe, Smith has a distinctive position which should be attractive to Labour’s pro-European membership. And tonight he seemed to go further than he has in the past, making explicit something previously only implicit and saying that if he were leader Labour could reject the EU referendum result and opt to keep the UK in the EU. Many pro-European politicians, like Paddy Ashdown and Tony Blair, would back this 100%. But it is a tricky argument to make now, because it is tantamount to saying “ignore the referendum”, and the studio audience reacted quite badly when he made his case.
Smith should have had the edge over Corbyn too on security, but the reminder of his Isis gaffe set him back.
Generally, though, Corbyn seemed to exude confidence. With the polls suggesting he is well ahead, this is not surprising, but what was striking was how much better a performer Corbyn is now at this format than he was a year ago. He was relaxed and even funny at times, and he managed to brush off Smith’s most aggressive criticisms, over extremism. It helped that the audience seemed more on his side than Smith’s (so much for “BBC bias” - see 8.57pm) His claim that he would be able to take Labour to power by inspiring the young may sound fanciful (the psephologists say boosting youth turnout mostly helps Labour get larger majorities in the seats they hold anyway), but it seemed to strike a chord with a large Labour chunk of the studio audience. What the public at large think is another matter, but this was a Labour-dominated audience and they seem happy to keep him as leader.
Updated
Q: Would you work with your opponent?
Corbyn says he would be delighted to work with Smith.
Smith says he has already said he would not serve under Corbyn.
And that’s it. Dimbleby reads the names of next week’s guests. They include Alastair Campbell. When his names is called out, there is some booing.
And that’s it.
I’ll post a summary and verdict and some reaction shortly.
Q: What do you think of the monarchy? My dad received an honour from the Queen.
Corbyn says he is glad the questioner’s dad got an honour. But he does not think serving politicians should accept that.
Q: But what is your view of the monarch?
Corbyn says he is not campaigning on the monarchy. He is campaigning on issues of democracy.
Smith says he supports the monarchy.
Junior doctors' strike
Q: Do you support the junior doctors’ strike?
Corbyn says he supports their right to strike. But he says he hopes the government will negotiate with them.
Q: But should they strike?
Corbyn says he hopes the government is listening.
Smith says he supports their right to strike. But he hopes they do not go on strike.
But he understands why they need one, he says.
Corbyn says people need to unite to fight hate crime.
Smith criticises the way the Prevent programme works. He says he would spend more on it to make it more effective.
Q: What would you do to tackle antisemitism in Labour?
Smith says there is a problem. There has been antisemitism in the party. And that has diminished Labour’s ability to speak out against it in the country at large.
He says Corbyn has not been strong enough on this. He says the report commissioned from Shami Chakrabarti is not seen in the Jewish community as being strong enough.
Corbyn says there were reports of antisemitism in the party before he became leader. It is totally unacceptable anywhere in society, he says. He says he commissioned the Chakrabarti report. It should be “subject to review at a later stage to see how we are getting on”.
- Corbyn says Labour should review the Chakrabarti report in the future to see what progress is being made on tackling antisemitism.
Dimbleby quotes the Labour MP Ruth Smeeth criticising Corbyn’s record on antisemitism.
Smith says antisemitic people have been attracted to the party under Corbyn. They have come from groups like the AWL or the SWP. There was a tweet from someone in Corbyn’s camp recently saying they could come to Corbyn meeting, as long as they left their banners outside.
Q: Are you accusing Corbyn of encouraging this?
Smith says people around Corbyn are encouraging people to join the party.
- Smith says people around Corbyn are encouraging the hard left to join Labour.
Corbyn says Smith’s comment are unfair. He says he, like Smith, has opposed antisemitism all his life.
That is the core of what Labour is about.
Smith says some Jewish people do not feel safe in Labour now.
Corbyn says he supports people like this.
Updated
Q: Why do you support getting rid of Trident?
Corbyn says the UK should honour the obligations it has under the nuclear non-proliferation treaty to get rid of nuclear weapons.
The questioner accuses Corbyn of playing games.
Corbyn says we should be putting pressure on China, and working for the de-nuclearisation of the Korean peninsula.
He says we should give meaning to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty agreed under Labour in the 1960s.
Smith says he and Corbyn both want to get rid of nuclear weapons, but he thinks Corbyn’s approach is naive.
He says the government also has to keep the UK safe.
Security
Q: One of you wants to scrap Trident, the other says we should have talks with Isis, so why should we trust either of you on security?
Smith says he never said we should negotiate with Isis.
Dimbleby quotes what Smith said about the need for all parties to get around the table.
Smith says Dimbleby ignored the first part of his quote, in which he said we could never talk to Isis. He says that eventually you can only make peace with those prepared to talk. He says he was involved in the Northern Ireland peace talks. But Isis would never get to this stage, he says.
- Smith says he does not think Isis would ever be involved in peace talks. He says his previous comments were misinterpreted.
Updated
A young woman asks what they would say to young people who were not allowed to vote in the referendum.
Smith says he thinks 16 and 17-year-olds should have been allowed to vote.
But he does not think it is undemocratic to say, once we know what Brexit will involve, people can reject it.
Corbyn says Labour tried to change the bill to ensure 16 and 17-year-olds could vote.
He wants to ensure good relations with European universities, he says.
Smith criticises Corbyn for not mentioning Brexit at the last two PMQs.
Corbyn says EU nationals in the UK work hard and support public services.
He says he wanted free movement, but was concerned about the undercutting of wages.
Q: Are you saying you want better wages here to reduce immigration?
Yes, says Corbyn. But he says he favours higher wages on the continent too.
Smith says people did not know what they were voting for.
Labour should be being a more powerful opposition.
He criticises Corbyn for not mentioning Brexit at the last two PMQs.
- Smith criticises Corbyn for not mentioning Brexit at the last two PMQs.
A woman in the audience accuses Corbyn of not doing enough for the remain cause. Remain could have won if Corbyn had campaigned more effectively, she says.
Corbyn says he did campaign hard for remain.
Corbyn says remain would have got even fewer votes if he had said everything in the EU was perfect.
Smith says Labour could decide to keep the UK in the EU under his leadership
Smith says we do not know what Brexit means.
Labour has to stand up to the Tories, he says.
If Brexit means fewer protections, then we should test the final deal, either at a general election or in a second referendum.
Nigel Lawson said just this week he would like to use Brexit to finish Thatcher’s revolution.
Q: So Labour could go back into the EU?
Yes, says Smith.
Q: Even if that means ignoring the results of the referendum.
Yes, says Smith.
Some in the audience boo.
Smith says Corbyn would give the Tories a free ride. If Brexit would make live worse for the people of Oldham, Labour should accept it.
- Smith says Labour could decide to keep the UK in the EU under his leadership.
- Corbyn says Labour must accept the Brexit vote.
A man in the audience says Labour should accept the referendum result. Smith would ignore the views of 17m people, he says.
Q: And what is your view on controlling immigration?
Corbyn says non-EU immigration is already controlled. He supported signing the posting of workers directive to stop workers having their wages undercut by migrants. And he backed the return of the migrant impact fund, abolished by the Tories.
Brexit
Q: Should there be a second referendum on leaving the EU or the terms of Brexit?
Corbyn says we have to recognise the results, regrettable as it is. But Britain has to protect workers’ rights.
He says he would like to remain in the single market “if that’s possible - it probably is”.
And he would like Britain to stay a member of the European Investment Bank.
But he is sceptical of TTIP, he says.
A member of the audience asks Smith to identify a Labour policy he supports that Corbyn doesn’t.
Smith says he supports remaining in the EU, and remaining in the single market.
Smith says he saw Corbyn asked five times if he wanted to be PM. He did not answer.
In the shadow cabinet Corbyn offered “scant leadership”, he says.
Updated
Q: Will there be a split if Corbyn wins?
Smith says he will not serve in the shadow cabinet under Corbyn. He could not do so with integrity. But he would not leave Labour, he says. He will vote Labour he says.
He says Corbyn says Labour was ahead of the Tories in the poll. But it was not. And he says he can win by attracting young voters. But all the experts say you need to win by winning over Tory voters, he says.
A man in the audience says, if Smith were really Labour, he should be willing to serve under Corbyn.
Smith accuses the man of abuse.
He says he decided to stand when he heard John McDonnell say he was prepared to split the party.
Corbyn says they had a meeting. Smith offered him unelected elevation to a non-existent post [party president] if he resigned.
That gets a laugh.
Corbyn says he and Smith worked together. He tells Smith he (Smith) has enormous talents. Why can’t they work together?
Smith says it is because he does not think Corbyn cannot win.
Updated
A man asks why Labour got annihilated in Scotland.
A young woman in the audience says she has been on her CLP committee. The discourse has been divisive. We have heard it tonight, with the booing. It is coming from both sides, but more from Corbyn’s. What is happening generally id disgraceful.
A man accuses Corbyn of ignoring his core vote.
Corbyn says there should be no abuse in debate. He never makes personal attacks.
Yes, the party has to come together, he says. From that point, it has to be a strong party.
He says Labour was “more or less level pegging with the Tories” until the leadership challenge.
-
Corbyn claims Labour “more or less level pegging with the Tories” until the leadership challenge.
Corbyn says only 47% of young people voted at the election. But there has been a new positivity about voting, he says. Labour would invest and tackle inequalities. That is very attractive, and will bring “an awful lot of people over to Labour”, he says.
- Corbyn claims Labour can mobilise the youth vote under his leadership.
Q: Wasn’t Labour ahead in the polls before the leadership challenge?
No, says Smith. There were 89 polls under Corbyn’s leadership. Labour was behind in 85, and level pegging in the others.
A man in the audience tells Corbyn to ignore the critics. A Labour councillor, he tells Corbyn that he meets people and they say they love him.
The questioner says both men look unelectable. Someone else should take over - maybe Harriet Harman.
That prompts booing.
Corbyn says: “Thanks for your vote of confidence. I really appreciate it.”
He says Labour has recruited 300,000 members over the last year. The questioner may not rate Corbyn or Smith. But the people who nominated think they can do the job.
He says there has been a lot of negative publicity recently.
But the party will unite afterwards, he says.
Smith says he is not as optimistic as Corbyn. It has fallen in the polls. If there was an election now, it would go backwards. Corbyn is more satisfied with leading the party in opposition, he says.
Q: How could you lead the party better than Corbyn?
Smith says today there has been a 20% increase in zero-hours contracts. Hospital waiting times are up. And the Tories are bringing back grammar schools. But Corbyn has not said anything about any of those three developments.
We have got to win, he says. He says winning is not a “dirty word”.
Updated
Smith says he is very pleased most MPs support him. And he won in the only ballot conducted so far - of GMB members, he says.
He wants to lead Labour back to power.
Some in the audience boo Smith.
Labour unity
Q: Corbyn has no support from his MPs, and Smith has no support from his party. Shouldn’t they both stand aside to unite the party?
Corbyn says there is huge support in the party for opposing austerity. Some MPs support him. A large number don’t. He fully understands that, he says. But he hopes the party will come together afterwards to take on the Tories.
Q: Why do you think MPs will come back to support you?
Corbyn says he has spoken to a lot of them. After the conference, people will see a coming together.
- Corbyn claims Labour MPs will unite behind him if he wins.
Updated
Question Time
David Dimbleby, of course, is presenting.
He is introducing Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith now.
They are in Oldham.
Updated
Jeremy Corbyn has been tweeting ahead of the programme.
Getting ready for @bbcquestiontime's #LabourLeadership hustings with David Dimbleby #bbcqt pic.twitter.com/iJiSqsFSnS
— Jeremy Corbyn MP (@jeremycorbyn) September 8, 2016
According to the BBC there will be around 150 people in the audience tonight and around half of them are Labour supporters, split equally between Corbyn backers and Smith backers. The rest of the people in the audience support a mixture of other parties.
Huffington Post is running a clickbaity story ahead of the hustings, based on a handful of tweets, about Corbyn supporters thinking tonight’s programme will be rigged against Corbyn.
The story does not mention the fact that the YouGov poll of people voting in the Labour leadership contest showed that Corbyn’s supporters (97%) really are much more likely than Smith’s supporters (44%) to think the media is biased against Corbyn. But the Smith supporters are less likely than the public at large (51%) to think the media is biased against Corbyn.
Here is an excerpt from the YouGov research.
The overwhelming majority of Corbyn supporters believe that the mainstream media is biased against Corbyn (97%) and that PR agencies helped orchestrate the ‘chicken coup’ (90%), and more than half believe that the intelligence services are working to undermine Corbyn (55%).
Smith supporters are far more sceptical of such claims, with 44%, 24% and 11% believing them respectively. Belief in these theories is more prevalent among Labour voters in general, however, as well as among the general public at large.
Sources in Jeremy Corbyn camp have today released some figures from their own canvassing showing that Corbyn is well ahead of Owen Smith - in Smith’s own constituency. According to their figures, based on 56% of Labour members contacted in Pontypridd in south Wales, 64% are backing Corbyn and just 29% are backing Smith.
Comradely is not the word that springs to mind. Whereas last year’s Labour leadership contest was relatively good-natured, this year’s has been much spikier. The contest was triggered because 75% of Labour MPs voted for a motion saying they had no confidence in Corbyn but Corbyn refused to resign. Corbyn’s allies saw this as a coup mounted by 172 MPs prepared to defy the will of more than 400,000 members and supporters who voted in the leadership contest last year. The first hustings between Jeremy Corbyn and the challenger, Owen Smith, in Cardiff at the start of August, was frosty. Since then it’s got worse.
Tonight’s hustings may be the most high-profile yet, although its impact on the result could be limited because many members will have already cast their vote. Corbyn and Smith are on a Question Time special. According to Wikipedia (I did try the BBC press office, but they would not say) a normal Question Time gets seen by almost 3m people. But this one is going out at 9pm, an hour and a half earlier than when the programme usually airs.
As the leadership contest nears its end - the winner will be announced on 24 September, a fortnight Saturday - Corbyn remains the overwhelming favourite. A YouGov poll of people voting in the leadership contest last week found Corbyn ahead by 24 points. Here are the detailed figures showing the figures amongst the three categories of people voting in the leadership contest.
But the contest does not seem to have done much to improve Labour’s ratings, or Corbyn’s, with voters as a whole. A YouGov poll yesterday gave the Tories an 11-point lead over Labour. And Corbyn’s personal ratings, compared to Theresa May’s, are very poor.
The hustings starts in just over 20 minutes. I will be covering the proceedings in detail, and then posting a summary, analysis and reaction at the end.
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