See you at the same time next week!
Thank you to all those who contributed this lunchtime. It’s been very interesting. If you want to comment further or discuss our Brexit converge more (what’s missing/ what you like) – then please do get in touch: sarah.marsh@theguardian.com
We will hold another debate at the same time next week.
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'A deep sadness that is not shifting'
Thought it would be nice to end the debate with a very honest plea from one reader (submitting through our form). It’s easy to forget that, at the end of the day, this is about people’s lives.
Since the referendum results came out me and my family have felt a deep sadness that is not shifting. It’s that kind of sadness that is already there, even before you open your eyes in the morning. Me and my partner have been living in this country for 14 and 22 years respectively. The reasons we came here were simple: the people seemed more open-minded, more accepting. We are currently seriously considering our options and it is very difficult. I will get my childhood studies degree next year and my plan was to continue my studies in Aberystwyth and hopefully become a researcher, my greatest ambition is to make a contribution to social justice. My partner has been a self-employed woodworker for 12 years now, I think if we decide to leave the country it will impact much more on him as we can’t afford to move all his workshop and business with us. We also have a 9-year-old daughter, she doesn’t really want to go anywhere because this has always been her home. The situation is very stressful, and the pain we are feeling is great. – Irene, 36, Wales
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Five-minute warning
We have five minutes left to discuss, so please make sure you get any final point in. Thanks everyone
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'I feel incomplete and on the verge of a nervous breakdown'
This comment sums up a lot of sentiment coming through via our form
To those who say that the UK government cannot do anything before starting negotiations, it may be worth reminding them that the UK is responsible for this situation. Not the EU. In the same way that the government is going to great lenghts to reassure the markets, it could easily provide a reassurance to EU citizens (I understand it cannot be set-in-stone without even exploring the mindbogginly complexity of Brexit). Instead, we have Theresa May, saying "no-one stays anywhere forever". What is that even supposed to mean? I cannot think of a more twisted and nasty way to play with people's futures
Leaving the EU might result in a downturn in my line of work
There has been a lot of concern from those who work in the field of science
Julien, 38, who moved to Cambridge from France
As the UK is a huge winner when it comes to science in the EU (getting lots of grants) leaving might result in a downturn in my line of work (I help scientist to analyse their data). I doubt that any future government will be able to match the level of funding and talking to friends, a lot of EU national working in science are planning to move back to the EU. My wife works in a company that sells a lot in the EU and we are not sure if they are going to stay here or move to the continent in order to avoid paying tariffs.
Theresa May in U-turn over EU citizens in UK
According to an article yesterday in the Financial Times (£):
Theresa May, the Tory leadership frontrunner, has reversed her stance towards EU citizens living in Britain, after her rivals accused her of treating them as “bargaining chips” in exit negotiations.
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The lack of government preparation is highlighted here
Be interesting to know if that process is only for EU nationals. I know a few non-EU nationals trying to get UK citizenship and they're finding it very difficult and costly. What will be the process once we leave the EU? It's ridiculous the Government, having called a referendum, never planned for this possibility. A business would have had a whole project management team set up. Oh the arrogance of our leaders...
Large numbers of people will have to make a lot of difficult decisions in a vaccum
Some people have to worry. A lot can happen in two years: children starting school, new job offers, retirement, business expansion...I would not worry too much yet
Large numbers of people will have to make a lot difficult decisions in a vacuum.
The Brexit negotiations may not even resolve the most basic of these questions , as UK immigration law would remain exactly as it is now subject only to future amendment by a future government. Despite that EU nationals will find themselves living in a world in which their presence is at best regarded as provisional.
At what point do people stop hoping for the best and start preparing for the worst?
What do London’s EU nationals really think of Brexit?
I wouldn't worry too much yet – this will take a long time
I would not worry too much yet. Until the UK exits officially and that is at least 2 1/2 years away, the EU regulations apply. Let's also face it - punctuality and quick work is not the UK's strong suit. In fact, at one level the UK is not allowed to change anything at this point even if they absolutely wanted to. At best, these are only promises and they cannot be any better than that. I think that the rules will be the same on both sides. Finally, the concern that there would be a rush of EU citizens in at the last second seems absurd. This whole episode is making the UK appear less attractive, not more. The likelihood is that at the highest levels in certain professions EU citizens will go elsewhere. So, in the end what you will have is a reverse brain drain.
An interesting comment below the line from AlternativeLogic:
"We need to know what the cut-off date will be, what the requirements will be and how we can prove that we have been here prior to the referendum f.e."
The most likely date for cut-off, if there is one, will be when the UK actually exits the EU - this looks to be in about 2.5 years from now, but there is no way to be precise about this. It is quite possible that there will be no cut-off at all, depending on the deal done with the EU about movement of people. It should be remembered that lots of UK pensioners retire to the continental countries - it would not be popular if this was made more difficult.
As to proof of current residence - something like paying rent on a flat, utility bill or whatever would be sufficient. It could be that in a handful of cases some dispute could arise, and a court decision would be needed, but for 99+% of people the fact that you have been in the UK for some time will not be challenged, and life will go on as normal.
I believe everyone here from the rest of the EU should be given "indefinite leave to remain" immediately and it seems to me likely that this is what will happen after things settle down a bit.
My wife is from Lithuania and her father lives with us - I am not at all worried that his legal status here will ever be a problem.
All the best, AL
Brits living abroad
We also heard from those who have migrated to countries around Europe about how they feel.
Paula , 44, who moved to Sweden
As a British citizen living outside the UK, I no longer feel welcome in the UK. I have read too many times that many back home now see us as traitors, as having abandoned our country and how we shouldn’t have any say in UK decisions. I get the impression that the UK can’t wait to wash it’s hands of us.
Valerie, who lives in Italy
My state-educated bilingual British-Italian daughter, an EU student, is an undergraduate at a Welsh university and although her funding has been guaranteed for the next two years, it will certainly affect any decisions about whether to undertake further studies in UK. She is a science student and future career possibilities now look to have been severely curtailed because of probable EU funding cuts. She is currently researching climate change in Sweden thanks to the Erasmus programme and we are grateful that she was eligible for this; I hope UK students of the future get the same opportunities.
This is a major blow to my identity; the rise of racism across England makes me feel deeply ashamed. I have based my entire adult life on a belief in Europe and the opportunities afforded by free movement – only to find it is now under threat. I moved to Italy to work in my 20s and subsequently made my life here with my Italian partner. My work – first as a teacher and then a travel writer – has always relied heavily on my bicultural experience. I have never drawn benefits in either country of any kind.
I want to express my total solidarity for all EU citizens in UK, the vast majority of whom are irreplaceable members of society. I am grateful for their contributions in all areas, including the restaurant trade, academia & the NHS. While not personally experiencing racism of any kind here in Italy, I have a good idea of how they feel.
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What will happen to students who want to study in Britain?
A younger voice on this from Giovanni, 17, Italy
I’ve always dreamed of studying in the UK. After Brexit many are saying, ‘it’s not as if Britain is becoming a different continent, deals with Europe might change but they won’t disappear’. The thing is, before all this, I had an equal as anyone else of getting admitted to a British university. How do I know it won’t be harder now? It’s much harder for me to apply to an American one (since I would have to do more tests, request a student visa etc)...This is one of the reasons I chose the UK as my objective place to study.
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Comment are now open, please have your say below the line. Thanks
One EU national's dilemma: My career or my relationship
Jay, 30, who moved to Oxford from Spain
I came to the UK two years ago, holding a civil engineering degree, and since then I have been working, paying taxes, etc as any other Briton. I have never claimed a benefit.
Also I met my partner here, but now I fear that soon I’ll have to choose between leaving for my career or staying for my relationship.
I don’t feel welcome any more. I have always been treated with kindness in Britain, but sometimes, when I speak to some Britons, I feel unwelcome. Politicians like Theresa May who say there are no guarantees EU nationals can stay here also make matters worse. It’s insulting.
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The Scottish government seems to be taking a different approach
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EU nationals putting plans on hold after Brexit
Many of those who have responded to the form so far have talked about putting plans on hold until there’s more certainty about what will happen. Here are some stories:
I was planning on building a home here
Josefina, 25, who moved from Sweden to London
My American husband is with me in Britain and we feel like our future is uncertain. I believe that most EU citizens will get to stay but I am worried about us recent arrivals: I arrived a week before the referendum. Will there be a cut-off date? How would an EU citizen/family member prove when they came here, after all a registration certificate is not necessary and takes a long time to get.
I have given up already on one plan to expand my business
Monika Koch, 50, Suffolk
The whole Brexit discussion has impacted me already: I am awfully nervous, permanently stressed and don’t sleep well anymore.
I have given up already on one plan to expand my business locally. That part of business plan was at an advanced stage, and was supposed to be ready for the summer, but would have needed quite some investment right now. I don’t feel comfortable now investing in a longterm project in a place that doesn’t feel like home anymore.
My youngest will start studying in autumn, is bilingual and is seriously considering moving back to Germany from her second year of studies.
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Some interesting responses so far to our anonymous form on this debate. Here are four reasons European citizens say they are worried:
1 Pensions
My biggest concern at the moment is around my pension and whether it will remain transferrable across the EU if I wanted to move out of the UK.
2 Tax matters
I am not sure I will be allowed to stay, or even if I will want to. Some changes may force me to move because I’d be better off (I’m especially worried about tax matters). I was going to buy a house, and now I think – what if the market crashes? What if I have to move back home too soon? My life is on pause.
3 Language tests
I am not too worried. I have lived here for seven years and am studying history at a degree level, which makes me confident in my ability to pass any language or Life in the UK tests. It is a different situation for my parents – they unfortunately work too much to be able to take a break, let alone take classes in English language, history and politics. They have tried it before, and it just wasn’t possible. It is a stressful time.
4 Breaking up of families
I have an English husband (equally devastated), two dual-nationality children. I have rarely felt foreign in the UK, it became home as soon as I arrived in 2000. Now what? Residence permit, work permit, possible expulsion if they extend the £35,000 threshold to EU nationals. And if we moved to France, my husband would have massive hassle for being non-EU.
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Children are also affected by this uncertainty, as highlighted in the article below:
Very keen to hear how parents are coping with this, and how the government could help. With so much uncertainty, what can you tell your children? Just some food for thought – we can go into this in more depth when the discussion begins.
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'This isn't the England that I fell in love with': Europeans in the UK on Brexit
After Brexit, the Guardian published a call-out asking European immigrants for a response, and we received over 200 by lunchtime. Many expressed their devastation at the news, saying that they now feel their position in Britain is very uncertain.
Monika Leissle, 42: My home is here, so what do I do now?
From Germany/France to Hillingdon
I am disappointed, devastated and unsure of how to move forward now. I came to England 20 years ago, feeling as though I didn’t fit in in Germany or France. Britain became my home, not the one I was born in, but the one I chose. I have never felt unwelcome. I cherished the values Britain used to stand for and was proud to live here. I have never claimed any benefits and have happily worked and contributed to the economy. However, since the EU referendum debate started, I have heard that migrants are squeezing English people out of their jobs. I have certainly never done that. I have just worked hard to get where I am. Now, for the first time in many years I do not feel as if I am welcome here, and it makes me very sad. It is not a matter of saying, “OK I will go back home” because my home is here, so what do I do now?
I do not know. My partner and I worry what will happen if we lose our jobs. Will we need to apply for permits to work and stay here? What impact will it have on our NHS contributions? On our pensions? I was so happy to see that London voted mainly for remain. That is a beacon of light, and thank you Scotland as well.
Kristina Stromberg, 42: This is not the England that I fell in love with
From Sweden to London
I am deeply saddened about Brexit – I saw Britain as a strong country that would not quit. I believed it was a team player, a country with warm and open-minded people. This morning I was proved wrong. This decision will have a huge impact on me personally. I have lived here since 1993. My daughter, who is 13, has a British father – will we both have to apply for dual citizenship? This process is long, as we first have to apply for proof of residence. I will also have to sit the Life in the UK test, which is expensive. Not knowing what is going to happen kept me up the night before the referendum result. For the first time ever, I do not feel welcome in the UK. I experienced racism in the days leading up to the referendum, and I feel much more aware that I am a foreigner. I don’t feel comfortable talking in my native tongue in public anymore. It feels as if I am no longer wanted here, and that is horrible. I have lived here for over half my life, but this is not the England that I fell in love with. I believe that the referendum should never have been held. To let the general public make this decision, many of whom don’t even know what the EU stands for, was a fatal mistake. I will never see Britain in the same light again.
Przemek, 32: My world hasn’t collapsed due to the UK leaving the EU
From Poland to London
It may come as a surprise but I was backing leave. Personally, I believe that the UK is a great and strong country and although there will be some difficult conversations to have in the future with the European Union I stay optimistic. It is good to be in control of your own budget, law-making policies and borders. I don’t believe in a one-size-fits-all approach. I have also observed the lack of flexibility of the EU in striking the right deal for the British people. This may be an extremely emotional time for immigrants and some Brits who voted remain but I think we should stay calm.
I am sure that I personally won’t be affected much by this decision. I will be able to work in the UK and travel to the EU freely. Not much will change for me personally. If you are a specialist in your field you will find employment anywhere.
My world hasn’t collapsed due to the UK leaving the EU. My friends are still my friends, I have got my job and my flat. I have personally never wondered whether I am welcome or not in the UK. I came here, got a job and started paying taxes. That’s it. I am not overly attached to London or the UK and have never treated it as my home. That doesn’t mean that I don’t respect this country or feel part of it. Even now.
Aleksi Saikkonen, 28: I hope that Scotland gains independence so I could live there
From Finland to London
I have lived in London for almost a year and came over to study as a postgraduate student and to work in the arts. I am very sad and surprised by the news. This will have a negative impact – I don’t understand how it benefits anyone. I have tried to understand the views of people who worry about the EU and immigration, but surely plunging the country into a new recession will do more harm to them and their benefits?
I am also worried about employers’ views on hiring EU citizens now that everything is so uncertain. I can imagine that some businesses won’t want to hire someone to a permanent role if they can’t guarantee they will be living in the country five years from now. I came here to build a career and was doing pretty well in Finland. I don’t want to have to switch countries every two years.
I am worried about the impact this will have on the creative and arts sector. Many people are freelancers who have fixed-term jobs. If the UK decide only people earning more than £30,000 per annum can stay, then freelancers will struggle.
I am also worried about EU citizens in UK universities who planned to forge a career here. It’s unfair that they have paid for education in this country but now they will be expected to leave. I have always felt welcome in London and still do. I do not feel welcome elsewhere in England, however. I sincerely hope that Scotland gains independence as I could very easily see myself living there.
Ewelina Lason, 36: I feel as if I have been painted in the worst light
From Poland to Worcester
I work for a council in the UK, and also promote bands. I think I will lose my right to work, perhaps get deported following the referendum. Maybe I will never own a house, or have a decent paid job. Maybe I will be an outcast and drifter all my life now – who knows? I don’t really want to move again after so many years abroad. It was hard to make it in Poland, then in Malta (where I moved next) – there were all sorts of issues, such as me not being able to buy a house. I was hoping to simply work and contribute to another country. Now I can’t see my future at all. I feel scared, as if I have been taken hostage and painted in the worst light. I fear for the safety of myself and Europe. What will happen now to the music industry? Will British artists need visas? Will the arts sector diminish? Also I feel as if all EU migrants have been left without a voice. I feel like marching in London to show that I am a human and not a monster.
Meri Pentikainen, 30: Britain has left a small table to join a much bigger table
From Finland to London
I’m happy about it. You have left a small table to join a much bigger table, to put it in terms that have been bandied about so much. I’m frustrated that remain voters made it a question of unity with Europe, when it’s a question of union with a political organisation. People have cooperated with other nations since forever, moved abroad, travelled and married people from other countries. The EU is a relatively new invention and not being a member won’t stop you from engaging with Europe.
I expect the impact on me will be minimal. I may have to deal with some red tape, but as far as my job and ability to stay goes, I don’t believe they will be affected.
I’ve been most unsettled by how emotionally people have taken to this issue. Under normal circumstances nobody gives two whits about the EU, but in the past few months it has become something that people tie their identities to. For example, one of my friends said that if there are leave voters in his Facebook friends they shouldn’t talk to him any more, because they have destroyed everything he believes in. That’s verbatim. I don’t know what to make of that.
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For those who want to add to the debate anonymously, please share views via this form. Would be great to get some comments in ahead of the discussion at noon.
Welcome to the debate
EU citizens living in Britain are feeling increasingly uncertain about their future after Brexit.
So, just to recap (in the highly unlikely event that you missed it), question marks over citizenship come after a European Union referendum in which the UK voted to leave the bloc.
After the result – and during his resignation speech – David Cameron said the status of EU nationals in the UK would not change while negotiations over Britain’s future relationship with the EU were live.
However, since then home secretary Theresa May – who has just won the first round of votes in the Conservative party leadership contest – said she could not guarantee the position of EU citizens living in the UK until Brexit negotiations were finalised.
The foreign secretary Philip Hammond echoed this saying that although it was unlikely EU nationals would be asked to leave, there can be no full guarantees. Speaking to the BBC, he said: “You can’t say anything until we have had the negotiation because clearly this has to be a bilateral agreement.”
This stance has been criticised by MPs who say people “are not bargaining chips”. Tory MP and Brexit backer, Anne Main, said: “Nobody on the official Leave campaign raised the prospect of sending people away and deporting people.”
She added: “This has been raised by the home secretary and it is a catastrophic error of judgment for someone who wishes to lead this country to even suggest those people who are here legally, working with families and settled, should be even part of the negotiations.”
Conservative leadership contender Andrea Leadsom also said that the future of EU nationals living in the UK should be guaranteed.
How do you feel about this? Are European nationals here being let down? What about Brits abroad? Should there be more guarantees? Join us from 12pm to 2pm today to discuss.
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My husband, who is English, and I (Spanish), decided to move to the UK after having lived together in Spain for a few years. I wanted to get to know his country and his culture, at least as well as he knew mine. We both decided to focus on our careers over here, and spent a few years re-training. It has been a huge investment and effort on both our parts, which is now bearing its fruit. We have, obviously, paid taxes, fees and contributed to the economy and our community, same as we did when we lived in Spain. After I graduated with a First class degree, I was awarded an ESRC scholarship to complete a PhD. I have also worked as a researcher, teacher, tutor, coach and set up my own coaching company. We also have a two year old half English, half Spanish son (officially English). Would I be allowed to see him grow up? Would all of these years of working hard, sacrificing loads of other opportunities (decisions made on the basis that I was granted indefinite citizenship here) be a waste of time? Are they seriously even considering pulling the rug from us? I have always felt welcome here. Liverpool feels very much like Murcia, my home town: people here are friendly and open to people from other cultures. I have always chatted away with people at bus stops, at the supermarket, or taxi rides. Since the referendum, I am scared to open my mouth in case somebody attacks me for being a "migrant". My husband and I have found each other, we love each other, we love our son, we love both our countries and the cities we have been lucky enough to live in. We were happy and settled, and this is already tearing us apart. The level of anxiety and fear I (we) am experiencing needs to be accounted for. Stop this madness. We are people, we have families and friends here, we came here in good faith, and made our decisions and build our future on the basis of the freedom of movement principle. I feel lost, scared and unwelcome. I feel incomplete and on the verge of a nervous breakdown. I think about my son's future, our futures. This is real, it's happening. What now? What do we do?