This week on Hafta, Newslaundry’s Abhinandan Sekhri, Manisha Pande, and Jayashree Arunachalam are joined by Priya Sahgal, editorial director at NewsX, Jasmine Damkewala, advocate on record in the Supreme Court, and senior journalist Hridayesh Joshi.
The episode opens with a discussion on the opposition’s protest against the special intensive revision (SIR) exercise in Bihar. Priya states that when the opposition sets aside its differences, it can make an impact. “The fact that everybody came together, even the AAP, even though they're not part of the India Block itself, also showed there is unity. When the opposition comes in full strength, they can make an impact and a difference,” she says.
Referring to Rahul Gandhi’s press conference on alleged voter fraud, Manisha notes how it is unusual for a political party to assume the role traditionally played by the media. “However journalistically sound it may be or not be, it’s still striking that political parties today also have to do the media’s job of starting a narrative through such investigations, because very few organisations have actually invested time in looking into this issue and the related complaints.”
The conversation then shifts to the Supreme Court’s order to remove stray dogs from Delhi’s streets. Jasmine Damkewala notes that the dog population surged during the pandemic, when government-led sterilisation drives came to a halt. “Especially during COVID, no sterilisations were happening, or very little… The thing is, the state government is not really doing sterilisations. They do very little, and for that, too, they send the dogs to NGOs and pay them for it.”
Manisha adds that the court’s solution seems unworkable as there aren’t enough shelters to house the dogs. “This is Delhi – we haven’t even figured out shelters for humans during extreme heat waves or extreme cold waves,” she says.
Abhinandan agrees and says, “For the Supreme Court to pass an order that is unimplementable is ridiculous. We have to acknowledge there’s a problem, but this is certainly not the solution.”
For the discussion on the Uttarakhand disaster, Hridayesh joins from ground zero. He recounts his journey to the site of the tragedy, despite being denied permission by the local authorities. He also discussed the current situation at Dharali, the village most affected by the flood.
Hafta letters: Uttarakhand disaster, vote chori, scaling up NL
We have a page for subscribers to send letters to our shows. If you want to write to Hafta, click here. And click here to contribute to our new Sena project.
Check out the Newslaundry store and flaunt your love for independent media.
Download the Newslaundry app.
Song: Freedom Isn't Free - Team America OST
Timecodes
00:00:00 – Introductions and announcements
00:05:46 – Headlines
00:16:47 – Opposition’s protest & INDIA bloc unity
00:44:31– Priya’s recommendations
00:47:53 – SC’s decision on stray dogs
01:11:04 – Updates on Uttarkashi disaster
01:24:27 – Letters
01:33:40 – Recommendations
References
NL Ground Report from Uttarkashi
Recommendations
Manisha
India’s enduring patriotic songs: When music becomes the nation’s memory
August 15: The day we perform freedom and pack it away
The swagger’s gone: What the last two decades taught me about India’s fading growth dream
Jayashree
The invisible seafaring industry that keeps the internet afloat
Abhinandan
We love our dogs and cats. But Are they Bad for the Environment ?
Why Do People Love Their Dogs?
Priya Sahgal
Hridayesh Joshi
Check out previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters.
Produced and recorded by Amit Pandey and Naresh.
Abhinandan: Nfte Rain Shine Thunder. Lightning Storm Hafta will be there even if everyone has not made to the studio. We are joining you today. We are recording on the 14th of August. Usually we record on Friday, but tomorrow's Independence Day, so happy Independence Day, you all. Uh, but Delhi has had incessant rain since morning, uh, thus Manisha could not make it to office, and she's joining us from her home.
Hi, Manisha. Hin, although Joshi is swimming his way to office, he's gonna be joining us today 'cause he's just back from the flash flood area for Han and he's braving the weather to make it. Uh, joining us also from her home in Chennai is Jhi ala.
Jayashree: Hello. [00:01:00] Hello. It is drizzling lightly. So that's my contribution to the discourse.
Abhinandan: Okay. And, and
Manisha: season is upon you though. Don't be Munk. We still
Jayashree: have
Abhinandan: some time. And joining us also not from office, uh, is Priya Segel, uh, is joining us from Noida. Although the images from Noida coming also quite, uh. Concerning the, the Jams.
Priya Sahgal: I think we are going to get maroon soon, so I'm glad we are doing this from the house and not in your studio.
Abhinandan: Yes. So Priya, I'm sure most of her audience is already familiar with her. She's the editor, editorial director at News X. She has nearly three decades of political journalism experience. She anchors the show, the Round Table Cover Story, and we Women Want, she's the author of the Contenders, which we have featured on this show earlier.
A book profiling Leadership in the Age of Modi. You can click on the link and uh, order it if you like. Uh, it's scanned, it sketches from personal meetings and on ground reporting it examines 16 next gen leaders. Um, and she contributes [00:02:00] a weekly column to the Sunday Guardian. And she is also a thespian.
She's a. A theater expert. She has essayed some historical roles
and some not so historical, but yes,
Abhinandan: back, uh, when she played Winslow Boy, apparently, uh, in school. I can see
your inside source on that information. Yeah.
Abhinandan: So thank you for joining us. Um, but, uh, you know, before we go into the headlines, I just wanna mention, uh, there's some visuals that we will be playing.
As I'm telling you this, uh, apparently all the desalting was done in Delhi. I clearly has not helped the, I went to the airport this morning. I'm sure a bunch of people missed their flights. Delhi is flooded. It's looking like every road that I went to, not every but a significant amount look like Rivers.
Manisha is stuck in her house and she has a sea facing [00:03:00] apartment. When she bought it, it was lawn facing, but now it's become sea facing. The
Manisha: entire public park is, it's like a lake. It's so strange to me.
Abhinandan: Uh, so yeah, uh, that's where we are unfortunately. Uh, with that, I wanna thank all of you. This and Elena project was stopped up our series on e-waste.
Uh, we know it's having an impact because as soon as my inbox has three, uh, legal notices, I know a story has had an impact. Uh, our reporters went on ground and saw some of those supposedly e-waste facilities were not e-waste facilities. This is the kind of brazen. Non-compliance and corruption that is happening in our country.
And this corruption impacts generations because your laptop, your phone, uh, everything has mercury. I'm not an engineer, but has all sorts of stuff that when it seeps into the soil, it poisons the water, the soil, and it has generational impact. [00:04:00] Uh, and there is a prescribed safe way to dispose this. And it is mandated in law.
Uh, is it being followed or not? Do read our stories powered by you, our subscribers. And the reason we can do this is because we don't depend on ads from any corporations or governments. So here's a QR code, and I have in the past my. Wonderful producer Pali has been saying of flash this QR code, uh, it's supposed to be scan this QR code.
So you've been flashing this QR code and wondering why you're not getting a subscription. Put your pants back on. You're supposed to be flashing it, you're supposed to be scanning it. So I've been, oh my god, I've been giving the wrong terminology for the longest time. Scan this QR code and you'll get a subscription.
Do not flash it. And,
Priya Sahgal: and, and then the easier second some, uh, state tips from you because they've removed, uh, everything that makes it possible to download stuff and they,
Abhinandan: no, but you know, we, we scan, we put this QR code and the terminology scan, but I've [00:05:00] been saying flash all these months. So, uh, we have a spec.
Manisha: The QR code flashing on your screen is what you
Abhinandan: were saying. Yes. Yeah, that's wrong. Scan the QR code flashing on your screen. Don't flash the QR code scanning on your screen, uh, and get a special Independence day discount. We have a special offer. Buy one, get one free on Independence Day. Support independent media because independence is nothing.
If your media is not independent. And with the Thank you for the NL Center project and an appeal for you to subscribe to this, we are also making this HTA free. It is not gonna be behind the paywall because it's Independence Day. So share it with your friends, relatives, anything, anyone who you think is interested in free independent media Now, um, let's get the headlines and then we should get into.
Much politicking that's happening in Delhi, uh, with the protests, et cetera.
Jayashree: Yeah. So here are the headlines for the week in the big news, the leader of opposition parties held a protest demanding the [00:06:00] rollback of a revision of the voter list in Behar, but they were stopped by the police as they marched from Parliament to the ECS office.
The police briefly detained dozens of them, including Rahul Gandhi. Uh, two dinners were hosted for India block members, one by Rahul Gandhi, the other by Malika Jge. This is probably the first in-person meetings of the top leaders since June, 2024. Also in the Supreme Court, while hearing a cluster of petitions against the SIR exercise in Behar, the court said the exercise is water friendly, so.
There you have it.
Hridayesh: Hmm.
Jayashree: Five journalists, uh, from Al Jazeera who killed an Israeli strike on Gaza On Sunday, Al Jazeera condemned the attack as a targeted assassination and called it another blatant and premeditated attack on press freedom. And I will say at this point that I find it really angering that all the news, several news reports on this will parrot that idiotic line from Israel, which is that yes, but they're claiming that one of the journalists was a top Hamas leader and all, oh, again, like they pull out all these theories outta a hat.
But I do not see why [00:07:00] media houses need to repeat that so faithfully. I think it is incredibly wrong, and we
Manisha: have a contingent of Indian journalists visiting Israel last year as this news came out. We have a story on that also. It's a junket. Terrible time for a junket.
Jayashree: They got autographs from the president, which is great.
So. The Supreme Court on Tuesday granted protection from arrests to the wires editor Shar Rajan and foundation members. This is over an FIR filed by the Samp Police over an article on Operation du.
Abhinandan: And the foundation mentioned is the foundation that operates the Wire.
Jayashree: And in other operations, Sindu News, IF Chief Amrit Singh has said that Indian Air Defense Systems shot down at least five Pakistani fighter jets and one large aircraft during the operation.
The appearance of Colonel Sophia Resi and Wing commander of Mika Singh on the Independence Day special episode of KGA has parked Controversy. This is our promo that came out on social media [00:08:00] and many people criticized or criticized it because they said the government is using the armed forces again for political gain.
Abhinandan: So, and on this Prakash Raj apparently tweeted that, will we see them on Big Bus Next? Um, oh God. And um, of course that led to major outrage on big bus rated news. Um, the producer, big boss, met me last week and. Asked me to join Big Boss season 19. So, and apparently they also approached, uh, saw up the way of Lan top.
Should
Manisha: you be giving this information away?
Abhinandan: Why not?
Manisha: It was a special appearance, so
Abhinandan: I was, I was told it has 350 million viewers,
Manisha: so we should ask a subscribers if you should go or not.
Abhinandan: I was like, a, if I trash, that's a good idea. If I trash Salman can, will you cut it out? If I trash banani that own colors, will you cut that out?
Uh, and can I keep appealing to subscribe to people, to subscribe, to pay, to keep news free? So of course, I [00:09:00] consulted my colleagues, Manisha, Nia, et cetera. Most of them said they'd disown me and not let me into office if I have made an appearance there. Uh, but I said, even if 0.01% of three 50 million views are to subscribe, when I were to convince them, imagine how many subscribers you'd get.
But at the cost of.
Hridayesh: My personal
Abhinandan: dignity. Now we, I'd like you to, I'd like to ask you people, should I say yes and I dunno if the Elish other was there and the hall will be there, it'll be an interesting experience, but at what cost should News, laundry and News Minute be using such methods for subscription?
Or can we depend on you? Here's a QR code, you can scan it. That's smart. And you can decide what, what route we should choose. I wanna know, Priya, if, if you were to be asked to, if appear on Big Bus, would you.
Priya Sahgal: Well, I don't like big boss much, but in the interest of the larger question, you know, any platform that is for or against, I think we should always go because, you know, [00:10:00] um, I'm gonna link this to the congress spokespersons, boycotting times, uh, now and various republic channels.
I've never been in favor of that. Go there, make your point. You know, just, uh, if you just give them the, if you walk, give them a walk over, then you empty the space for somebody else. So go there. I mean, don't replicate the space because somebody, uh, less worthy will, will come and occupy it. That's my advice.
Jayashree: Yeah. Well then, then now you have no choice. Yeah. She is your view.
Priya Sahgal: So me.
Jayashree: No. Yeah, I think go at least we'll get someone of our side in. I think you should go. Yeah. Why not stir the pot? Exactly.
Hridayesh: See, but I know
Jayashree: someone who appeared on Big Brother, no Big boss in summer because again, she wanted to sort of like get a little bit of traction, increase social media followings.
And she's not your typical kind of contestant, but she's like, okay, I'll play the game and see what happens. So she went, she played the game, she did all the stuff and then came on and went back to her old job and nothing changed. So I think it was a bad use of the platform. I think you could use it better.
Yeah, he is very convincing. I think [00:11:00] you'll
Priya Sahgal: get them to discuss, do Atory.
Abhinandan: It'll get cut. No,
Priya Sahgal: you news critique.
Manisha: Uh, that's the whole thing. Even with the Congress, as much as you don't want them to boycott TV news channels, the thing is that your faders will go down. You'll be out shouted. The game is rigged.
The game is rigged. I think you also figure out how much of your presence there can make sense because it's from the word go you. You're not gonna be allowed to put your piece out there, but maybe you can have like your proxies takeover space of spokesperson. So if not, yeah, like bjp, does it send like a proxy,
Abhinandan: but outta three 50 million big boss viewers, harmony A, are interested in news anyway.
They probably aren't. I mean, I'd say maybe three, four, 5%. And outta those 3.5%, how many have the financial capacity on and the willingness to subscribe to News Laundry. So will it actually serve a purpose at all if you [00:12:00] were to break down those numbers? I'm just wondering. I'm not sure. There's only
Jayashree: one way to find out.
Yeah,
Manisha: I agree
Abhinandan: with
Manisha: Is it still the most watched entertainment show though? I don't know. Apart from Republic,
Abhinandan: no. I think broadcast is pretty much dead. Everyone's watching stuff online, so I'm not sure any broadcast numbers are of any significant value. 'cause apparently even IPL, which used to be the most watched thing, now the online numbers kind of, uh, outstrip the broadcast numbers, so I'm not sure about that.
Yeah. So tell us what you think. You can mail me at abana and ri@gmail.com. Um, you can also preserve News, laundry and my dignity by getting us those a hundred thousand subscribers without having to go to Big Boss, which would be a nicer way to do it, but it's in your hands. Our subscribers. Yes. The rest of the headline maybe
Manisha: subscriptions very dip because people want to want you to go to Big Boss.
Abhinandan: Do don't now, don't it in the [00:13:00] other way. This is, no, this is blackmail.
Jayashree: Right. In other news from Delhi, which is the Supreme Court has elected the Delhi government and municipal corporations of Naira and Guang to capture and shift street dogs to shelters. It said the situation was grim and immediate.
Immediate steps need to be taken. This sparked protests across the capitol, and Raul Gandhi also criticized the move, calling it a setback from decades of humane science backed policy. So now the Supreme Court has formed a larger bench to cure the matter. They will cure it. Date right Lobar speaker umbrella is constituted a three member committee to investigate allegations against high court Judge Wan Burma.
This is in connection with the accounted cash Rowe. Hmm. US President Donald Trump is warned of very severe consequences if Russian President Putin fails to halt the war in Ukraine. This was after their Friday summit in Alaska. He did not specify what these measures would entail.
Abhinandan: Well, Trump reminds me of that character in Manip.
Pia, who [00:14:00] was. The sidekick of the truck driver that was played by the character who played ra. I don't know his real name, who's this little squeaky chap who keeps telling him bus, but he never POS him. So I think Trump and put like that, but I'm not sure anything will actually happen.
Jayashree: Yes. Then 10 Childrens have flared in Fatur On August 11th, after Hindu organizations, including the Bal, attempted to offer prayers inside an old tomb, they claimed a temple.
One stood at the site and in Maha's, a 21-year-old Muslim man was beaten to death allegedly by members of a Hindu group. The police said this happened after he was spotted at a restaurant with a Hindu woman from his village. This
Manisha: is this, some eight people have been arrested. I think,
Abhinandan: yeah, this has just become so routine.
It's ridiculous.
Jayashree: India is a certain it would not yield to nuclear blackmail. After Pakistan's Army chief reportedly hinted at the possible use of nuclear weapons if his country faces an existential threat from Delhi. So the Jamon [00:15:00] Kashmir police's special cell carried out raids at eight locations in Srin.
This is part of a probe into the 1990 killing of a 27-year-old Kashmiri pundit woman, and aro has erupted in Mara Ani district. After the KA municipal corporation ordered the closure of slaughterhouses and meat chops in August 15th. Several other municipal corporations have now followed suit opposition leaders condemned it as food policing.
Deputy CM Aja Pawar also opposed the move saying it's wrong to impose such a ban independent. And I think David Avi said his government is not interested in who eats what. Yeah. Also, this is based on some 1988 government order, which says you can close abattoirs in certain days. And he says, oh, I only found out about the order now.
So he's washed his hands off.
Abhinandan: Yeah.
Jayashree: And those are the headlines,
Abhinandan: but any, anyway, let's thank God for small mercies that at least Mr. Faves and others are not endorsing such a move. Uh, but let's get to what happened in Delhi. Um, we really talking about the [00:16:00] entire dog debate, which has been my big thing in Delhi.
I dunno if it's a big issue in the rest of the country, but I just thought it'd be an interesting, in fact, Manisha was suggested. It'll be an interesting subject to discuss. Um, we'll be discussing that later. But the protest regarding the electoral roles, in case you're wondering this t-shirt that all the Congress people were wearing.
Minta Devy 1 24, KnotOut The jibe is that there was this one voter who has ba been identified by the ECS process, a lady called Minta Devy, who looks very young in a photograph but is 1 24 years old. As per their records, they were rounded up, they weren't allowed to protest. Muhammad fainted apparently.
Uh, I dunno what kind of impact this has had, but this is the first major kind of protest that has both made, you know, difference in parliament and outside parliament. You know. Politicians coming out on the streets. Finally, uh, what do you make of this? Uh, Priya,
Priya Sahgal: I totally agree with you on the last one.
You know, this is, [00:17:00] uh, you know, everybody says, where is the opposition? So here is the opposition. If they don't allow you to raise an issue in parliament, we will go to the streets. So I think the opposition is getting its act, whether, and this is the most visible visual, uh, you know, rendition of that, uh, the fact that everybody came together, even the Amni party, even though they're not part of the India block itself, also showed there are certain issues, there is unity, and when the opposition comes in full strength, they can make a impact and a difference.
The other thing that I like to point out is the issue that is raised. You know, it, you know, we always say UL Gandhi picks up a lot of esoteric issues, issues that are important, but don't go beyond Delhi's drawing rooms, you know, whether it's the Rafael deal, the corruption, or you know, the whole Adani thing.
Jorge. Uh, somehow they do lose resonance down the ground, especially when congress governments also have a, you know, a link with Adani at the state level. So, having said that, this issue of vote, story of voter fair, you know, what is happening in Behar and about over 60 black people have been, you know, erased on the voter list, fake voters.
Uh, you know, when you have multiple [00:18:00] identities voting from different, uh, uh, in different votes in one election. All these issues, I think are issues that touch the cord. They've actually come up with the arm knee issue, so to speak. Um, and they've all managed to unite together, come on ground. And it's not something that benefits any air party.
They're all here because what's happening, we are, uh, was saying will happen in a Sam, um, uh, people West Ngal is worried will happen there. So everybody has come together on a issue, which is a common issue and, uh, the way they've done it. And also, you know, and then one point, the way the government is now defending the election Commission shows that this whole objectivity of the institution is all, you know, gone out the window.
Because the government is here defending the election commission, it's an issue. A, a voterless issue should affect every party. Mm-hmm. But you know that the election commission is playing the government's game and the parliamentary affairs minister comes in his defense and the entire BGP brigade is coming on social media defending the election commission.
It is definitely, it shows the partisan nature of the institution also. So a lot of, um, uh, lives are being [00:19:00] exposed over here, apart from the opposition, unity, fact that we've all been waiting for. At least we see it happening on the ground.
Abhinandan: Right. Um, Manisha you also feel that this is a, um, a time when the opposition has shown its good sides.
But I just wanna point out one thing, um, we'll discuss this also in detail later, but the amount of security forces that are out there preventing dog love from protesting atman, I think it's clear that government does not want any gathering because Pata, they came to defend dogs and overnight it becomes a protest for something political.
So, I mean, even at the peak of when, back in the day when I was part of India against corruption and, and you know, the al movement, even at that time before we moved our protest to Ram Meina Genman, there was not so much security to stop us as there was to stop dog lovers. So I think they don't want anyone to gather Kiki by chance or gather Hoge.
And they said, actually, no. You know what? We are protesting dogs and something the government did, then it'll be a problem.
Jayashree: But, you know, every [00:20:00] single government does it. Like even currently in Chennai, um, we have sanitation workers who've been protesting for the last few days. Like, like thousands of them have come out because they're privatizing, um, sanitation work in certain zones in China.
And so these people lose their jobs. So they've been demanding. So yesterday in quite, I mean. Unreasonably. So they cleared the protest site, which is outside the corporation headquarters, and they cleared all of them and they cart them off to wedding halls where they said, oh, you should now sit there and protest.
So it's the idea of protest is just that it should not be inconvenient, which is ridiculous. I mean, protest only works if it's inconvenient. Correct.
Manisha: I think since Ra Gandhi's press conference, you know where he first made the charges, the Election Commission has not come out with a single sort of point by point rebuttal to what he's saying.
Everything that we are seeing is in the form of sources, which in itself is very, very bizarre because election commission is not a body that speaks through sources. It should be able to put what's out there for the [00:21:00] people with its name, with who the official is. In what official capacity are they putting out information.
So one is that, that there's no strong rebuttal to what Raul Gandhi has said. The only thing we are seeing is the Bjps attack on Raoul Gandhi for questioning Election Commission, which further dense election commission's credibility. Because they are not standing up for themselves. The BJP is, so it's already not looked at as a, you know, sort of nonpartisan organization.
Even if what Ra Gandhi, and I think a lot of allegations he's made have to be investigated by media houses, especially a vote story. What we clearly know is of clerical, uh, issues in the voter list, the problem of say House Zero as the address, which is a problem that we've been grappling with for a very long time.
So a lot of this could be like collection commission is saying it's been issues that we've been grappling with for a very long time. Some of it's clerical, there's no malice behind it. But then at least they should put that out because the whole [00:22:00] point of the Bihar, SIR at least, was that we know the rules are bad and now we shall clean them up after that whole exercise.
Throwing an entire state into a Izzy, you know, throwing so many people under so much uncertainty, you are again, back with bad rules. So what
Hridayesh: is the point? What you achieve
Manisha: in those past two months? And I think those are very legitimate questions that the opposition is right, the government on. And the last thing is that we cannot look at this as a electoral issue.
I think you have to look at it in combination with am obsession on an NRC and determining who is a citizen and who isn't. Because I think this government has failed with unemployment, failed in terms of economy. The wish guru bubble has really burst over the last two months. The one emotional call that it can go with now to elections is roh.
Bangladeshi
is being taken over by illegal immigrants and that kind of rhetoric is going [00:23:00] side by side with this electoral cleanup. So we have to look at the exclusions finally by the end of this month. But this is an issue that affects a lot of people and I think it's a cause of anxiety for a lot of people. It's not some, it's not like a rael and all I feel.
Because it goes, the signaling is that we are gonna get rid of illegal immigrants and who is an illegal immigrant being, wali speaking Muslims, as you've seen over the last one month attacks in, in NC and other parts of the country. And the constant rhetoric we hear around Muslims and minorities. So I think it's a very good issue to kind of pick on.
My only issue with this is that I think journalists should not call Hook Kline and sinker for this vote Cho, uh, accusation because I think that's still a very big claim to me. Even if we say that one, LA voters have been registered in that one, in Bango Central, the assembly constituency, uh, you know that these people have come in, they're migrants.
We don't know who they are. There's [00:24:00] no, we, we don't have proof that those people voted for the BGP election. So I think election is still. To cast doubts on the result of an election, you need a lot of proof for it, and that should be investigated upon by, through journalism, not through politically,
Abhinandan: although, um, India today, uh, and even our teams newsmen teams went and investigated some of the places.
There was, uh, a lot of accuracy in people being registered, several people being registered, several dozen people being registered in one address, et cetera. Uh, I don't know if there's any way to check which of them voted and they didn't. I mean, I, I'm not sure if there is. Oh, in bang,
Manisha: at least, uh, news team found that this was a house which basically is rented out to lots of migrants.
So they come and go. A lot of people from Bengal, so all of them were registered, uh, but of course we don't know who all actually voted in the election. The Bjp, MLA there has said apparently the Bjp MLA, but still has done his own investigation and said that [00:25:00] out of that list, three people, 3% of the people voted.
Abhinandan: Okay. But of course we don't know what their way of, we don't know assert that is. Uh, but I think this is a double-edged sword because, uh, BJP is so desperate to win Bengal, uh, and I think the Bengal election is next year, right? If I'm not wrong, in 2026. Uh, Punjab and
Bengal. Yeah.
Abhinandan: So if two Pol
seven is Punjab.
Punjab is next year.
Abhinandan: Yeah. Punjabi is 27. I think Bengal is 26. Uh, Bengal
Priya Sahgal: and Kerala. Yeah. Sorry.
Abhinandan: So this could really backfire there already, there is resentment is what I've been told on the ground with the Bengali speaking people and of course that, uh, who had put out that tweet. Delhi Police put out, put out that, no, the Delhi police put that out.
Jayashree: No, no. This is am. Yeah, it
Abhinandan: was a Delhi police. Amitha is defending it. Delhi police had put out that notification if you know anyone who is speaking Bangladeshi language, et cetera, so that, so they'll have a political price to pay there. Uh, Priya, you think?
Priya Sahgal: Uh, in fact, uh, [00:26:00] I agree on the whole connection between this and the, and the NRC, you know, because this is all going towards that.
Uh, you know, they're trying to consolidate their World Bank. There will be a price to pay, and Mata Banerjee is quite, uh, adept at, uh, nailing them also. So in Bengal, I think they will have a tough fight on the hands on this issue. Mata will make this into her own, uh, uh, you know, uh, crusade and, uh, try and nail them on that.
But if I just may add one point on, you know, we missed, uh, Manish, uh, actually one, uh, small news item, but very significant in terms of opposition. Unity is the Constitutional Club election, which saw the opposition Rudy, who both BGP candidates, but one of them was backed by the opposition win. So, which shows that you know, that this whole smooth sailing parsha and the BGP party line, uh, there is, if the opposition and people come together, they are making these small dents and pinpricks into the BGP way of life, which I think was, uh, a good tail, uh, good side story in the conversation that we are having today.
Jayashree: But I, I think the, um, [00:27:00] I think the Election commission and the BJP are both really fumbling in their response. I think on the one hand you have very dramatic sort of scenes, which is like this allegation of 80 people living in a house. You have this using this picture of a 30 5-year-old woman and saying that, yeah, she's, they're saying that she's the oldest woman in the world, but she's not.
You have, now you have new allegations of ghost voter voters in, and there are lots of questions on what happened with, um, that chaps, that bjp MP's election in Kerala. Uh, you have Yogi and Ada were, uh, appearing in the Supreme Court with two voters who are dead. And he said, well, these are the dead voters, but they're actually not dead.
And it all very dramatic. The court hated it and said, we don't need this sort of drama. But what about Ra Kdi meeting all the, having the teeth, all the, yeah, and it's all very compelling visual. It's also like jumping over barricades, Mara fainting in a band. Like it's lots of the, and on the other hand, what do you have?
You have the ECS immediate response after Rajo, KDI thing is to replace, its. Machine readable roles with scans, which is just such a petty, obnoxious thing to do. You have that other slight [00:28:00] response from the bgp, which is now they're saying that, oh, there were irregularities in registering voters and like rival and ARD and therefore all the opposition mps who have won should now resign.
And it's not very knee jerk and I don't think it is very compelling way to handle it because if there is one party that is blatantly rigging an electoral system and when evidence is starting to point towards that being the case, it's the in the interest of every other party to sort of push back. And I think it's a great opportunity for India Alliance, like ideological alignment no longer matters.
It's also why the AP has come on board and in this current very messed up system where you, you only get pushback through a ballot box and if you feel a party is fundamentally trying to SC practice through a ballot box, then even the bitterest of of enemies I think should come together. And I think this is a great chance for like.
Alliance members to sort of co-opt or HINDE or EPS and the A DMK because this is that sort of issue that cuts across what we potentially see as other allies, or are they not? Because even the JP P allies should be worried, and I [00:29:00] think you should go full til I think they should say we're all in the same basket, but there's no guarantee forever.
And yeah, one would hope the bjb has
Priya Sahgal: too many carrots to offer. You know, one thought might even jump ship, but now we are hearing the vice president's for, uh, you know, there may be some, uh, payoff over there, uh, or his son will be given something. So these, the, uh, Naish Kumar is again, in no position really to bargain in if you look at his position.
So we, unfortunately, the BJP holds all the carrots. That's the problem.
Yeah.
Priya Sahgal: One,
Manisha: uh, observation I had after Raul run's press conference to meet, it's quite remarkable that a political party has put in so much effort to do what you normally see newsrooms do. Mm. It was like the investigative journalism project, you know, like we have analyzed this.
Stack of, you know, uh, voter, voter list, whatever the, I mean, however journalistically sound it may be or not be, but it's just still remarkable that political parties today also have to do the media's job [00:30:00] in starting a narrative through this investigation that they're, you know, doing. Because very few organizations have actually invested time into looking at this issue, looking at complaints.
We, at Newsland Rehab for about a year. A lot of people News Minute has, Kroll has, but in the mainstream, who has even, I'm not even saying investigate, but given space to anxieties among people
Jayashree: said, what you get is that, like, I remember even the Times of India, which I reported on the front page, GaN these allegations about Karnataka and somewhat to detail, but then it just sort of threw all that report out the window because then it said, well, but the EC has said this and the BJP has said this.
And we also are not able to like independently verify. So perhaps it's right and it's, there is no sort of. Openness to even trying to investigate whether what he's saying is true or not. Just like we, here are all the tweets that were presented on it. Also, I think when this voter, when they were marching and then they were being detained by the police and all outside parliament, that around the same time the BJP started its press [00:31:00] conference right.
Where basically backed up what the, is he was saying in a bunch of news channels just sort of immediately switched over from It's, yeah. It's
Abhinandan: to of controlling the media narrative has become the go-to thing. But I think what is um, sad is that the media does kind of determine a lot of what popular anxieties are or what are the values worth defending and democracy should be up there above anything else.
But we are talking media landscape where a guy like Han Sinha his name right, the Times now Chap the Republic, I dunno, which he did a whole uh, um, bit defending that pol, you know, where that guy was rigging the. May
Hridayesh: he
Abhinandan: did a full thing defending it. Yeah. I mean that is the level of our media and he still has a primetime show.
So I think fundamentally democracy as a value worth defending is not so important among a sliver of privilege elite in our country. [00:32:00] For them, it does not matter 'cause many of them don't vote for the poor. The vote is all they have. So the me, so the narrative setting lot for them, it's optional. Hard democracy here.
It doesn't rock our world so much. You know, passport factory, permission, cha. Anything we have, we can make a call and get it done. And that that is deeply concerning and that is a sure way of society collapsing. And I have quoted this before. Professor Jared Diamond, the evolutionary biologist at Harvard, has written a book and has a presentation on society's collapsing right from, you know, the north to as recent as Rwanda or Sudan, et cetera, is when the interests of a thin minority, of privileged people and the interests of the underprivileged majority start diverging.
The K shaped curve of interests is when societies [00:33:00] collapse begins, and we should really arrest that. And for that you have to have people idiots like SU and a not spewing the shit they spew every prime time and that. People have to reject it. I think that's important.
Priya Sahgal: Yeah.
Abhinandan: So on that note, no also, I
Priya Sahgal: mean, on the intern, I, you know, this is a good conversation to have considering its Independence Day tomorrow.
And, you know, the whole debate where we may have got our independence, but we still need to get our freedom. You know, we are still working towards that, uh, angle. And, uh, the fact that, you know, what the BGP does is also, you know, uh, as I said, uh, they had a press conference at the time and the opposition was being arrested.
This is what the BGP does. They don't engage, they distract, you know, they don't admit,
have they were admitted? Has anybody resigned on any of the scams that have taken place? They, uh, COVID vaccine oxygen shortage. They just didn't admit it. They're only the face of good news and they don't admit or. Acknowledge the bad news. Take a look at what [00:34:00] happened. The UPAW of a scandal, they resigned.
Nobody has been, you know, all the cases have come to court. Everybody's been exonerated. The two G scam, the 3G scam, the CWG, only Maori went to jail. Um, even his now charges, I think have been the cases now, no longer there. Uh, uh, Shahi, you look at all the other, uh, society scam, all the scams that people had to resign, they've all been exonerated.
Mm-hmm. So end of the day, there was that sense of morality that the UPA government had, and there is this. Where you don't admit there is a scam. So you are a scam free government. You don't engage. If there is something that is a, an issue, whether it's the economy, whether it's the Chinese invasion, whether it is, um, uh, currently now, um, uh, you know, this opposition, uh, stir on the ec.
You don't admit it. You don't engage it. So you, um, go and to talk about something else. You change the topic. Now there's 15th August. Some big announcement will happen. They will just change the narrative and the headlines. They're very good at managing narratives and headlines. And yes, the media should play a bigger role.
They should play the role of the opposition. What the congress, uh, Kavana and all the Ra Gandhi team are doing. This is something [00:35:00] which we should have actually been doing. I agree with Maisha on that point totally. But unfortunately that's for various reasons. That is what is the state of the media. Gone are the days when journalists were sent to London to probe the Cwg scam.
They are the ones of scams are broken in the media. Mm-hmm. That nail the UK government,
Abhinandan: in fact of great distraction is whenever Mr. Modi does anything, all the channels cut to that. I had mentioned this in. Hafta. I think maybe over a year or two ago he was inaugurating something as irrelevant as some water treatment plant and there was a big story that was breaking at the same time.
Um, uh, it might just come to me and I tweeted about that. I said, this is what is happening. And everyone cut to him his speech about inauguration. I mean, just change the narrative even if it's inauguration of something, which is why, one lovely joke that I heard the other day was that there was Alexander the Great, there was Akbar the Great and there is Modi.
The inaugurate. [00:36:00]
Manisha: The inaugurate. Yeah, they inaugurate.
That's true.
Jayashree: No. The thing is that even Kato him video conferencing and, uh, inaugurating things, which I just find it so bizarre. Like the man is literally on video conference inaugurating a, something that's taking place thousands of kilometers away. And even then we're supposed to watch him on the screen.
Sort of waving and things and it's absurd. So, but also I think that we are so, like, especially in the people who are around me, I think there, for them it's very much that, well this is how it is and there's nothing you can do to change it. But I think it is shocking. Like I think it is upsetting that you are getting to a stage where it's just sort of defeated acceptance that, yeah, the media does this and then we do the rest.
And then you look at things on social media, you look at a couple of news organizations who are doing real work and then you kind of hope things get hit up because they don't. And I think everything is a distraction. I think this, we would assume that there would be greater anger and rage over election commission, but it's also that, yeah, well institutions have been sold out and that's just how it is.
And then we live with it and we [00:37:00] move forward. So. A lot of it has
Priya Sahgal: to do with the funding also. No. You know, which is why i's plea of subscriptions makes a lot of, you know, it's, uh, it's actually, uh, more urgent than anything else because, uh, we need independent voices to be funded because, which is why mainstream media falls because we depend on funding, uh, to the government agencies.
Yeah. Know and WEP in power. Most of the states also, and, you know,
Abhinandan: not just government agencies. Priya, uh, I've mentioned this in one of the talks that I gave at the business school, uh, of the market failure. One would assume that even of K fine, a significant chunk of revenue comes from the government.
There is a private sector as well. And if you can demonstrate that there is a certain, you know, viewership you have where their consumption interests align with the consumption interests of a particular brand, they could fund that. But even private sector will not advertise on a government unfriendly channel.
They are scared. And also people like Adani and Pates who are basically government proxies. [00:38:00] So it is not just government funding. Every advertising will only go where the government wants it to go. Look at what is happening with the PM CARES fund. I'm sure you know people, I know people who have been told that your CSR funds earlier, they may be going for some feeding.
The homeless here that they all have to be directed to, to Prime Minister. They are basically ensuring, I have attended conference in London, which they had to discontinue. I mean, I think they still have, are struggling and putting it together because they would have people like Raul, you know, spoke them, Mahua spoke there.
Um, so I was there on that and they had a rival conference coming up. So all the sponsors said that we have to sponsor that conference and that would only have voices from the BJP analysis. So whether you have events, whether you have advertising, whether anything, private sector, public sector, anything it.
It, it, it has to be starved off anyone who says stuff that is not convenient to them so much. So even [00:39:00] international agencies are very wary of partnering with someone who is in the bad books of the government. That is such a huge, huge danger and people don't realize it anyway. So, um,
Priya Sahgal: but uh, can I just add one quick thing?
Please. You know, this is, uh, something that, uh, you know, it happened even with the other governments. It's not happening, uh, something new with the VJP, but what is new over here is because this is such a worthy centric, one man centric government that everybody, each department unites early on. What used to happen is if a channel would did an anti Kamal art story, the Ministry of Environment would fund it because Geron doesn't like Kamal.
So, you know, there were various, everybody. There were, you know, various fears of influence that were working here because it's so centric to one man that everything is geared towards pm o controls every ministry as we know every decision. So you can't say anything about anyone because no one else really matters.
Also. So that's the other problem of centralization that we are seeing today, which is why it's so stringent And so in your face.
Abhinandan: I just wanna ask one [00:40:00] thing, um, you know Priya, 'cause you uh, have been a journalist for a long time and you have interacted with, a lot of people have attended your book launch and it had people across party lines.
Do you think there is also problem with, um, this whole polarized cocooned. P you know, thought of journalists who belong to this thought process, not engaging. I have, for example, and as has Manisha, an UL often been called for tea. Like I, I've often said that I go for the holy mil that diocese has with, they've stopped calling me the last few years, but they used to call me.
I used to go, um, certain ministers have called me just to speak with me. I, I show up. I'll say, okay, show hi. Um, you don't have to do what they say. In fact, I take that opportunity to say, dude, you know, on the one hand you wanna talk to us. On the other hand, I, I've got like 80, it notices I've got been detained.
Delhi police has come to my office three times, et cetera, et cetera. And I ask them, it's not like they start beating me up. Mm. But. I have also spoken to some [00:41:00] journalists, or they called me to meet, I said, no, or how sorry the way he was, you know, completely trolled for attending that it o that 11 years of Modi government that they celebrated.
In fact, I was also invited for that and I would've gone, I just wasn't in town. I mean, the expectation that you should not even sit at that table. Do you think that has made the, I mean I use this term inaccurately, that the liberals have become, you think that's a bit ridiculous as well, and we should just calm down on that a little bit?
Priya Sahgal: I think we should. Otherwise you're falling in their trap, you know, then they'll say, so, uh, definitely go and make your voice heard. You know? Okay. I take your point about the, you know, the big boss house, but go in unfriendly places, platforms, and, uh, you know, uh, get your voice heard, we should go. This whole, uh, uh, you know, the line is never black and white.
It's gray. So, you know, there are people who are hearing, there are people who, uh, they may not acknowledge, but they will take note. And you know, this, PGP is very, very conscious about the image. So if you say some things, they, it definitely goes [00:42:00] into the, uh, you know. Whatever. They may twist it, they may play it around, but I think your voice, which is why social media becomes at a town hall.
Everybody is speaking, they are reacting. So you should go a hundred percent I think. Yeah. I don't think there's a thing of, uh, black and white works anyway,
Jayashree: should you go and I think you go only because it's for about self-interest, right? Like
Hridayesh: mm-hmm.
Jayashree: You go. And if it's good for something that you might be able to do, a story you might be able to figure out, then yeah, absolutely.
If, but what I push back against is I know a lot of people tell me that I live in an echo chamber, by which they mean that, oh my God, you're surrounding yourselves only by people who sort of have the same kind of politics or the same sort of ideas. And I have a big issue with that because I think what people sometimes want me to do is they want me to like interact more with, or they expect journalists to constantly interact with people who think differently and they want you, they, and they're talking about things that to me are very fundamental.
Like you should interact with people who don't believe in homosexuality or who think caste is really not a big evil or who. Think that communal violence is something that you can downplay and it isn't really important, or you should interact more with people who think that Hindu [00:43:00] temples are under attack in Tam and that this Dravidian government is out to murder you.
So I think there's, there's starting to be a great difference in what you see as values and what you see as otherwise. Interactions with people. Like, I think for me, there are very clear boundaries in my head as to what is important to me and what I believe and what I think. And those are lines that I don't want to cross.
And that doesn't mean that I sort of work out everyone who thinks differently, but there is that sort of resistance to me to try and understand them further because I think that there are some things that are human and that are, you know, human rights that I can't really cross over. But that said, yes, absolutely go for events like this, I think it's great to sort of see what the other side is up to.
It's why I also, I have a couple of people in my family who have certain thinkings that are just really bad, but I love. Them. And I love stalk them on social media because I really think you need to know like how they think. And it's, it's interesting, like it's interesting in a sort of abstract, scientific, distant kinda way.
But yeah, you should do it
Abhinandan: Manisha. You have a [00:44:00]
Manisha: no. Journalists should absolutely meet everyone. And I think it's important if you're gonna be reporting on politics, even society, even the churnings that we've seen over the last decade, you have to be able to observe. No, see, you shouldn't cut yourself off from anything.
Abhinandan: Right? We have, Joshi has appeared in our studio. He has braved the elements, not just in Han where he has reported. We'll talk about that. Uh, he also braved the elements in Delhi. Welcome to this. Thank you for joining us. Thank you so much. Uh, but before we say bye to Priya, uh, Priya, can you give us any recommendation that could enrich the lives of our listeners and viewers?
Anything you've watched read? Experienced anything. And
Priya Sahgal: one thing to enrich and one thing to entertain. I think by enriching, we should go back to the books on Hero. You know, he's so much part of our vocabulary today. He is not what either side makes him. You know, one makes him into glorifies him too much and the other vilifies him too much.
So, read his book, of course, discovery of India, read about him, and it's a good time to look back at the [00:45:00] independence movement also, uh, at all what all he brought. So I would definitely say, read about Naru, read about Patel, uh, you know, and find your own opinion. Because to look ahead, the perspective of the past is very important.
And I, on a lighter note, your mother will kill me. This is not English literature because I must tell our viewers that, uh, Mrs. Ri was my English teacher. And thanks to her, you know, I got my love of writing and reading. Uh, she was excellent. Uh, so, but my, currently, what I'm watching is the latest season of Sex in the City, and here is, you know, to go back to our conversation how being two woke and two liberal ruins a good narrative.
So let's, you know, keep everything in check over here. Uh,
Abhinandan: they're, they're ending it, right? They're saying they, they've committed that this is it, this is the end of sex in the city, right?
Priya Sahgal: Thank
Abhinandan: God. And thank God, yeah.
Priya Sahgal: Thank God. No, it was a good season until the last one. You know, a good episode, the last season just became too preachy and too, you know, trying to send too many messages.
So that's also not good. Don't ruin a good narrative at the end of the day.
Abhinandan: [00:46:00] Right. Thank you so much, Priya. Also, I'd just like to tell you when this month of August, uh, the calendar is the same as it was in 47, as in the days, the week is the week, and the days juxtapose perfectly as in 15th. 15th is a Friday.
15th of August, uh, in 47th was 15th of August was a Friday.
Oh, that's interesting.
Abhinandan: Sure. But thank
Priya Sahgal: you for having me here and, uh, hope to see you also. Thank you.
Abhinandan: Yes, thank you. Thank you. Bye-bye. I will also use this opportunity once again to urge our subscribers to share this QR code, scan it and gift a subscription to someone.
Get one plus one free. Keep me outta big boss's house. Please subscribe. News three Reh shall just tell you what what this is about right now. We'll move on to discuss the Khi disaster with eSSH, and also you'll discuss the Supreme Court order on removal of. [00:47:00] Depending on which data you go by. Seven, lack to eight lack dogs from Delhi streets and neighborhoods.
Uh, Jasmine Dke Walla will be joining us. Jasmine is a legal professional, has over two decades of experience at the bar, is serving as an advocate on record at the Supreme Court of India. In addition to her professional practice, Jasmine has pursued significant pro bon initiatives. She has advocated for Parsi women's rights and the constitutional right to feed street dogs resulting in the landmark judicial outcomes.
Uh, now she joins us to discuss what we have seen many progress about. Uh, so Jasmine is joining us from the court actually right now. So the network, we may face some network issues. I request you to forgive me for that, but let's see what we can make of, uh, not the best network situation. So Jasmine, tell me, uh, this, um, order, what triggered the order?
Uh, why [00:48:00] has it reached the Supreme Court and how implementable is it?
Jasmine Damkewala: So essentially this matter, as we know, pertains to community dogs who some people call as street dogs, three dogs. Actually street dogs is not wrong. Stray dogs is pretty wrong because a dog which was born, brought up in a particular place is not stray, is very much a community dog and a stray dog if he's taken care of.
Also. Now, uh, essentially in, there have been a lot of media reports about dog bites in the recent past. Now all, not all these reports are correct because what happens is even before. Verification if a new story comes out that is published and later you get to know that, okay, somebody was not, did not die out of a dog bite, but died from a gunshot wound.
Like in the case of university, a girl was shot down by, um, somebody she, she was [00:49:00] having a relationship with. It was reported as she died of, uh, and succumbed to a dog bite. But, you know, gunshot wounds are very difficult to hide. So, uh, that came out similarly. Another aspect was, uh, some businessman in Bombay, he just tripped over his own pet dog and died.
But then story died because he tripped over the dog and he, his head hit her slab on the floor and it was reported as the dog bit him. The dog never bit him, it was his pet dog. So this kind of story, you know what happens by the time the reality comes out, it has spread so much that there's a lot of panic and approach.
General public. So I'm not saying a no dog ever bites anybody that can happen. Sometimes bites happen. They may be provoked, they may be not provoked. Most bites that happen are provoked. Some bites tend not provoked. Like, you know, little children sometimes get bitten. That may also be because the [00:50:00] dog has some past trauma and experiences and he's fearful.
So dogs have this fight or flee, uh, eno drum. So they will either fight you, bite you, or they'll flee if, uh, the dog is traumatized in some ways. So there are many, many ways to go about it. First and foremost, the dog population has to be go killed by A, B, C, which is not being done. That sterilization,
Hridayesh: right?
Jasmine Damkewala: So the problem magnified because if you see scores and scores of dogs, all of a sudden, especially during COVID, there were no sterilizations happening. Very little. Um, and why is that? Government offices were mostly functioning during COVID. The thing is that the state government CT is not really doing sterilizations.
They do very, very little sterilization for that. Also, they send the dogs to NGOs and pay NGOs for it. Most of the sterilizations is carried out. Private people, uh, the whatever, dog caretakers, dog lovers from the community, they send up for [00:51:00] sterilizations vaccinations. So essentially under a b, c rules. And even otherwise, the municipal corporation is supposed to sterilize, but municipal corporation is not doing it.
And in fact, it does not even have, it has not even made the effort to do it. It has 20 a b, C centers total in all in Delhi, which are all nonfunctional. Either they don't have equipment or they're shut down, or they don't have staff, or they don't have doctors. Similar 67, uh, animal veterinary hospitals in Delhi.
Okay? They're all, again, non-functional. So if your veterinary hospitals are not functioning, your a, b, C centers are not functioning. Your MCD is not sterilizing dogs, only the public is, there is a, it has its own limitations. You can't cover that around that fast.
Abhinandan: Right. The network actually in the court, I guess, is, uh, not on our side.
So we will not be able to continue with Jasmine. Uh, but we will just [00:52:00] get the rest of the panel to respond to this. Just a couple of things I wanna say here. One is, according to the Hindustan Times report, these are official, uh, uh, data accessed by PTI in Delhi in 2025. Still today, which is the 14th of August, 26,334 Dog bites cases have been reported.
9,920 were recorded at the Municipal Corporation, Delhi Hospitals. And for 2024 last year, 68,000 dog bite cases were reported. Uh, that is as far as the official data is concerned, of course there are anecdote evidence of people being really cruel to dogs and provoking dogs. And there is also anecdote evidence that, you know, dogs have ma people, in fact, the videos of you've seen old women and children getting mauled.
I'm just curious, how did this matter reach a Supreme Court?
Jayashree: The Supreme Court read a news report on a 6-year-old who had died of rabies, and so then it decided to take so mood to cognizance. And I mean, how, see where you stand on this debate is [00:53:00] one thing, but I think in the matter of the Supreme Court deciding to take cognizance and then passing this order, I think there should be some unanimity that this is.
What I would call like Uncle Jurisprudence. It's like if you took the slightly nuttiest WhatsApp uncles of my neighborhood, I have a WhatsApp group of my neighborhood and people talk about talk a lot and straight dogs come up all the time to the extent where the moderators have to put up bylaws and the group saying these are things you can talk about and we will not talk about straight dogs 'cause it's just getting too much.
So it's as if those uncles in my neighborhood were put in the Supreme Court where they all quoted Clint Eastwood. So he quoted from the good, the bad and the ugly one of the justices. And it's one of those sort of points that they raised. And then they said that, um, this is terrible and this and that.
And also I think one thing that was quite worrying is that they dismissed trying to include expert voices to sort of give a little bit of context to what is happening. And they said that expert voices are so-called animal lovers and will they be able to bring back the children who lost their lives.
And so they just went [00:54:00] full tilt and said that. This is a terrible state of affairs. It cannot continue like this. And so therefore they pass the order saying the dogs must all be rounded up and moved, and so on. So that was the, that was
Abhinandan: how it happened. So that is how it happened. So I just am curious, where does the panel stand on this?
Do they have a position on this? Manisha, do you have a position?
Jayashree: It is a dangerous conversation to get into, guys. I feel like I am confident talking about saying things about many topics, but like I pause at talking about dogs
Manisha: and that is what makes it such a fascinating topic because it's so polarizing.
So I'm no dog lover. Like, oh, Manisha, that's it. That's the thumb,
Jayashree: that's the text that'll go on a thumbnail. Manisha Pan. I am no dog lover.
Manisha: No, no. In the sense if I see a stray dog, I'm not, I don't feel the urge to pet it or feed it like many people do. I like cats. And cats are a, they're a lesson in learning, unrequited love.
So, you know, you just give and not get anything back in return. So like, I don't have that, you know, [00:55:00] I'm not that emotionally kind of attached in a way that many dog lovers are. And I haven't had a bad experience with dogs either. Like we were discussing this in the newsroom yesterday and one of our reporters said that he's petrified of dogs because one night I think he was walking from u and he was surrounded by 20 dogs and somebody had to come rescue him.
Hridayesh: Hmm.
Manisha: So I haven't even had that. And you hear of these very, uh, disturbing stories of children being bitten sometimes it's not stray dogs either. It's like these delivery, uh, yeah. Guys being bitten by, you know, owners who, whose don't take care. But then,
Abhinandan: but there's liability there. That's the owner's fault and they should be taken up for that.
Manisha: But so that's, so I come from this thing where I'm just observing the conversations around it. And I think what is sad about this debate is it's being made out to be a citizens versus citizens debate, which is what is happening increasingly in all our debates. So the debate has become, whether you're a dog lover or a dog hater, or you are neutral towards dogs, which is not what it should be.
It's not incumbent on anyone [00:56:00] to love stray dogs or to, you know, pet them, feed them. Oh yeah, true. At the same time, people should be free to do it because authorities have not stepped into do the jobs. So these, a lot of these dog lovers step in because authorities are not sterilizing. They're not vaccinating, they feed because if you leave a dog hungry, they're likely to be more aggressive.
So, in fact, a lot of the dog lovers step in because MCD is just nowhere to be seen. So they take the responsibility to vaccinate, sterilize, make sure that they're well fed. And ultimately I think that this has to be a very pointed question towards that. Authorities, what has happened to this sterilization drive?
There's no way to tackle this unless, until you sterilize and vaccinate, that's the only way to tackle it. And a lot of people bitten by dogs say that when we go to hospitals. There is no, uh, there's a huge shortage of injections and supplies that need to be there to treat with the first aid treatment when you are, you know, come with an injury, a dog bite injury.
So what is quite tragic about this is that it's, it's being [00:57:00] pitted as a citizens versus citizens debate, and citizens also fall into it. It becomes very personal. I'm
Jayashree: gonna ask you a dangerous question, which is you're saying, but the only way to fix it is sterilization and immunization. Immunization, right.
But like, if the case was that streets were overrun with, I don't know, like monkeys or rats or something to which we do not associate the same sort of sentiments as dogs, and I completely understand why people have those sentiments about dogs. Yeah. I don't deny it at all, and I know it's sort of dangerous erritory, but if that, that had been the case where it was some other animal that we do not have the same sort of affection to mentally, and then we say, well, the only solution is to sterilize and not cuing because cuing euthanasia is.
A step too far. But we wouldn't think that way if it had been another animal. And there are that sort of number of straight dogs. I think they vaguely said there are one and a half crows. Yeah. One and a half crows state off. But also that is a wild underestimation because no one in every city, town and village in India is able to [00:58:00] document the actual number of straight dogs that exist on the street.
So
Manisha: no, no. Just s very neighborhoods. Sometimes there are 20, 30 packs of dog. It's, it's, it's quite outta control. I think they should declared monkeys women. Yes. At one point decided that they've been givens.
Jayashree: Right. Huh?
Manisha: I feel that way about pigeons. I feel no love for pigeons. And I think one should just say that.
Jayashree: Why? Because there's that entire pigeon debate happening in Bombay right now, right. Where the Jane Monks want to feed them. But they're saying, the a author are saying You can't, so now there's this huge battle in the streets where people are like, we should be allowed to feed our pigeons. But I'm saying, I, I mean, I get it.
I, I. I'm not a dog lover. I'm ambivalent towards dogs. Like they're okay with me, I'm okay with them. And that's sort of the existence of it. And I am, don't place a dog higher than a human, which I know a lot of people do, but like why is it so terrible to wonder whether, I think one thing that for [00:59:00] me, Heather has come out of this is that clearly we've been doing this for 25 years, which is these sterilization programs are running.
There is no case study in India where we can say, well this has worked really well in this city, so therefore, like a municipal corporation has done such a good job of handling this program, that we should take it as an example for the rest of the country. So maybe at least at this point, we should be able to say that I think we need a fundamental, maybe rethink about laws.
I'm not saying that therefore the only solution is cu I'm not saying that at all, I'm saying, but. There is something about this process
Manisha: and our approach, the population over a period of time and sterilization is the only way to do it. Why? I think there is a cultural context. No dogs are man's best friend.
They're intelligent, loyal, you know, through ages. Yeah. So I think that cultural context is there. You can't compare them to pigeons or monkeys.
Abhinandan: I think I, I think there's a history there, but, yeah. Let me, what, do you have a position on this relish? Uh,
Hridayesh: before telling my position, which already said a very important, a very dangerous territory to venture?
Mm. I would say, uh, about monkeys, you know, uh, the story of monkeys has been there for a [01:00:00] long time, and there is a reason, there are reasons behind why monkeys are so, you know, uh, uh, visible around us in the cities. Hmm. Because, uh, they have adapted very well in the urban surroundings for two reasons. Uh, one is that, uh, they find places, uh, they can live anywhere they like dogs, you know, unlike dogs, they can, they can be on roof, they can be on walls, they can be on trees.
Mm-hmm. Uh, second thing, very important, we should understand the solid waste management is very bad in our cities. You see the areas where you have controlled, solid, solid waste management, there's no, you know, food and, uh, all these things lying around you. You won't see monkeys. Uh, you know, these monkeys and our Ti Wildlife sanction in Delhi and maybe in Chennai.
I don't know the situation there. Down south, uh, the whole lot of, uh, monkeys were captured from Lutetium Delhi and other parts of Delhi, and they were transported there. And family, they, they live in a family, so they become more aggressive because, you know, some, two, three members of the monkey family, if they are taken [01:01:00] away and transported to some wildlife, uh, sanctuary in the border of Delhi.
But, uh, another thing is that if you go in, in the morning in the Sova Wildlife Sanctuary, uh, 2, 3, 4, 5 trucks will come, will feed them, uh, tomatoes and um, uh, bananas and everything so that they will remain there. So that shows the enormity of the problem, you know. But this is originally because of we have distracted their habitat.
Hmm. But what is a dog's habitat and dog's habitat dogs, you know, it's a domestic animal. So I'll, I'll just tell you one, one thing before I, uh, uh, before, uh, telling you my experience. Uh, once, uh, Jim Corbett had, uh, written about his dog, uh, Robin since Manisha said, uh, you know, they are the best friends of human.
This guy bought this for 10 rupees or something like this. And because he had adopted that dog, and which was his hunting partner in the jungles, and said The whole wealth of the world can't buy it now. Such was the emotion for the dog. He said that I [01:02:00] bought it for 10 rupees or 20 rupees. I exactly don't remember, but the whole wealth of the world can't buy that, uh, dog now.
So this is one. But coming from hills, I would say, uh, people have a dog is essential part of your life. Today, even if you go in the remote villages, because there are a attacks of leopard attacks of wild animals. Yeah. Dogs. The dogs and the stu dogs. Yeah. They will have two dogs. Why? Because if the dog attacks one dog, the other can, other will different, right?
Because w are ery bark ery means one takes away, it'll not, uh, you know, human, they just for human, but it'll take away. So, so, uh, that, that's where my position comes because I was born and brought up there that dogs are essential part of their life. People have raised them like their children, like their kids.
But this is also true while roaming around in parks. And this sometime, as Manisha pointed out, that being hungry, one of my very personal friends, a story that he was late night coming from office. He's also a news person, uh, [01:03:00] bringing chicken momos for his daughter. But because smelling chicken momos during Corona time, hungry dogs, because no one was out to feed them, they attacked him and he po mounted on a park wall.
So these things. Happen. But again, the same kind of, uh, solution like ization and vaccination, not only for dogs, but also available for the people if they, uh, uh, if they, if they get bitten by them. So these can be the solutions.
Manisha: The solution just seems unworkable. How are we gonna put so many dogs into shelter?
I mean, this is Delhi that we haven't even figured during heat, extreme heat wave, extreme cold wave. We haven't figured out shelters for humans.
Hridayesh: We have not cleaned the drains, you know, so our cities get inundated. Yeah. You know, and, and these MCD people
Abhinandan: don't do so, so I have, you know, four or five observations.
One is I agree this conversation never remains reasonable.
Hridayesh: There is no
Abhinandan: reasonable position apparently you, you are, if you say you, you hate dogs. You know, it's [01:04:00] just another thing that when I went home that evening, I got a clown four calls from people who, I won't call them friends, but acquaintances. Can you send a report to cover up protest?
Can you send a report? I was like, why are you protesting dogs? These people have never called me in the last 13 years of news on existence on either protesting 66 A or corruption, or N-N-C-R-C-A. But I mean, they will be willing to go out and be, you know, arrested by cops for dogs, which is wonderful if you have such a cause.
But it makes me wonder at the priorities of human beings. I, I think there is so much. So I am not a, I mean, I like dogs. I can't keep one. We had one. Yes. In fact, one of the few times in my life where I've cried is when my dog died. And I'll tell you how it died in Daron in 1987. There was a spate of many, uh, 'cause it's a huge containment area.
There was, I think within four to six months. 30 or [01:05:00] 40. Uh, Johans and cadets had been bitten by dogs. 'cause they used to go in the morning now for the run around Clement Town containment area.
Hridayesh: Mm-hmm.
Abhinandan: So of course back in the eighties things were wild west. There was no order. So actually they went around their room killing any dog that is on the street because it was, uh, ridiculous amount of military personnel that had got rabies because of bites, because of the morning parades.
Uh, and my dog happened to be out at that time and fell victim to that, you know, cleanse. Uh, and I was really, really sad. I was already 13 or 14 or 15 at that time. We've never kept a dog since. I really like dogs, but I will never keep one. Uh, so that is my position. As far as dogs are concerned, I think as far as a menace, I.
I am just concerned with the complete lack of acknowledgement that people who live in slums, my driver, if he [01:06:00] has to go home late at night, I have to give him a stick because when he of course walks from my house to his busti, there are about a pack of 20 to 30 dogs that will come and launch into
Hridayesh: in the night.
You can't move. Uh,
Abhinandan: sometimes he has to be escorted back. That is a reality as well, which we have to acknowledge. Cows outside Gen news, main gate, if you ever go in the morning at six 30 for football, there are about 30 cows that block the road. They are shitting all over the place. There's garbage. Get rid of them first.
They are a traffic hazard. Economy dogs are not a traffic hazard. Um, pigeons are, but if you're
Manisha: a two wheeler, they're Yeah.
Abhinandan: If they're two wheel, they correct. Pigeons are a menace and people are still feeding them. In fact, they're feeding cows. So many of these roundabouts have become these gutter things where people just throw their rotting food for cows as if they're doing some pun ka.
So I mean, everything is a [01:07:00] mess For Supreme Court to put an order, which is unimplementable is ridiculous. I mean, we have to acknow as a problem, but this is solely not the solution. I think
Jayashree: the major issue is that I think that this is a strategy that has to be reexamined and it has to be reexamined in a way that is not emotive and that is not knee jerk.
So sort of the knee jerk reaction of, oh my God, the dogs are man's best friends, versus, oh my God. But you should kill all of them because as you said, it is very correctly you said that. Yes, it is often the poorer people in poor classes who are suffering the brunt of dog bites, especially children, but.
It is not likely to work either. Either of these, either of these solutions are unlikely to work. That is to say, oh, we can do nothing to them or that we should kill all of them. You cannot. So, but I think that what this is telling us is that you have to reexamine what they are saying under the a, b, C rules as well, which is to say that you just keep up this entire plan of sterilization and it's not one shot.
Right? So it happens again, again over a period of time and it's left to communities and to so-called government shelters that are doing it and it's not working. So I [01:08:00] don't think it should be contentious to say that this system that we are using right now does not work. So,
Manisha: and to be fair, a lot of animal rights actors do feel that it's not working out.
Like the parties are not doing their jobs, they're not. And the bare minimum of stepping in and making sure it's as humane as possible, I wanna reserve, I wanna separate pigeons from cows and dogs, but genuinely feel pigeons. Are just completely useless and dumb. You know what? Pigeons are
Jayashree: really clever in the ways that their brains and things and their survival have developed over the years.
I will send you stories just on how they've been forced to sort of acclimatize to living in these concrete jungles where, and being forced to sort of whatever. I agree. They're basically skyras. Like there is something difference.
Abhinandan: You know, old family will disagree with you if you've seen, um, uh. Ka Buzzi was a very, see,
Jayashree: any animal can be romantic if you just look at it in that way or even,
Hridayesh: or a pigeon.
I, I I, I, I [01:09:00] also, I also run a YouTube channel, which is very, not, not very known, but I do science videos sometime on that channel, and tomorrow I will be releasing one video about this, only this feeding these birds. I'm not talking about dogs. This is not this very, this is not correct. We, we should not do it.
Like the people who come in the, any biodiversity park or any biodiversity park bring artai and to these ants, right? This is not correct. You are, you are actually intercepting and you are actually breaking a cycle of nature because for in any part of, you know, be concrete, jungle anywhere, the pigeons will find their, um, their, their food.
In park, they like the worms and all these things. So this is, I'm not saying this, the, the scientists, they tell us that you do it and you break a cycle. So this were also very important, but this is too sublime to understand at, at the point where we are, uh, you know, finding the authorities to clear our drains and right.
Do other things. But this also, I wanted to bring in notice,
Abhinandan: right? So anyway, [01:10:00] I'm sure we'll get a lot of, um, love and hate. But our, my co-host, uh, for OR, and awesome Raan has written a piece. She's a huge dog lover. She adopts also dog news, laundry. Has a lot of dog love. In fact. Had adopted three dogs. We got all three sterilized.
Uh, they used to live right here. Um, one of these, are they gone? One of them has stopped coming. Uh, here. Uh, she hangs out in the park in the other side of the colony and two of them, um, they used to keep them inside the room where the graphics artists sit, and one of them was allergic, so she'd break out into rashes.
So we kind of encouraged them to play with them outside. But yeah, they had made the main sitting area their home and they were allowed access, which is fine by me as long as others are not allergic. Uh, but now coming to Han, where you were esh. The visuals of that disaster were, dear [01:11:00] God, they called, if you were in there on that ham, three valleys meet.
I mean, there's nothing you could do. It's just coming there.
Hridayesh: Yes.
Abhinandan: Uh, tell us about your experience there. How long you spent, something that, I'm sure your reports will be read and watched by our audience, but something that you experienced, uh, which will not find its way into the report.
Hridayesh: See, turning point of my, uh, environmental reporting was Keana disaster in 2013, 12 years back.
Mm. And it was in terms of mortality, you know, it was, uh. 4,500 official deaths, I believe, because they keep updating it. But, uh, easily, if you were there, you could say that it is much more than that. Mm-hmm. But in terms of, uh, the, the way the, the, the, the valley has caved in and the mountain has come tumbling down.
This was no less. Uh, we have done a video. I got the people who made the first video of the disaster. We have published it on our website, news Laundry. People can see it. I met them and I [01:12:00] stood at the same place from where the video was taken. Hmm. So that, to give a feel of it. And I, uh, asked Asis to stand behind and asked him to play the video.
And in front of that, his mobile, uh, smartphone, the, the drain is, this is showing. So he told me it was not once it was. 10, 12, 15 times. But safely he recorded six times. So me and some other journalists who later went there, they said six times we are taking, but in small parts it was more than that. So what kind of a trauma it was for the people out there You can understand six times the flood came down and this morning only I had a long conversation with geologists who not being at the, who are not at that site, but they are closely watching tho those ulus which are coming down.
They said it is prolonged moderate rainfall, which oversaturated the ra, uh, the sediments and debris out there. And they're also, uh, from their past visits, they're also [01:13:00] seeing the satellite images which they had taken before this happened. Mm. So they are also fine from where it would have come. So the first you see down it is big boulders coming and second, uh, the flood, which you say it is like a paste, which we make to build the buildings.
A slush basically. Yeah. Which, which confirms, but till now, when of course for the studies will happen, that it is of course a prolonged rainfall, which oversaturated the Moran. Okay. It is not a, uh, cloud bust. And it is not a lake Co. It may be, it may be coupled with a, uh, with a, with a, uh, temporary lake, which, which is formed because of the obstruction on the, uh, streams.
Got it.
Abhinandan: Right.
Hridayesh: But it was. Go, which is Glacier Lake outburst flood. I see. Which was Kana Lake bust. But that is also because of the prolonged lane la uh, prolonged rain because of the em embankments where I see blocked off very soft. So
Abhinandan: there was
Hridayesh: soft. And then Alan came. [01:14:00] I see I have described it in my book in the length because I went, uh, to that lake with, uh, Dr.
DP Al, who is a Glaciologist. He explained me it would not have, uh, breached its banks. But Avalanche came down in 2013. This what would have happened. This time is very close to this and it, it, it is over saturation of the Marine. It is also, uh, and what is it kind of damage there? See, uh, I spoke to the people on ground.
They said eight. Everybody confirmed this. Is this confirmed? The eight people died from the village. Okay. Seven of them are missing. Mm-hmm. One body was found thirsty. Apart from that one, one body, no body is found. And sadly, I would say, uh, it, it, it doesn't, it's very bleak out there. Um, uh, Tani, you know, we don't think any, any other body will come out because 30, 40, 50 feet, uh, mud is there and the mud is so much that Mighty River BTI has been pushed 30, 40 feet.
Did you see the course of BTI earlier now? Oh, it's the coast. [01:15:00] Yeah. Bhati was going through the town. Both side of the buildings were there. Mm. Now the Bahati is flowing. Just at the banks of the road from where the qua village is, from where the, you can easily see it. I have also tweeted about it. So it shows the how much, how much flood and how much concrete, how much slush had come.
And, uh, the people are buried. And, uh, I mean, uh, they say we are using planet, uh, ground penetrating radar. We are using those, uh, docks, which sniff and find dead bodies. But, uh, for last 10 days, we are recording today from more than 10, around 10 days today. So fifth it happened. Today is 14th. We are recording it.
So, uh, that's very bleak scenario.
Abhinandan: Right. And you, um, apparently spent almost a day walking. Yeah, we immediately rushed. I got it from and, and, and are journalists being allowed there? How many journalists have managed to reach there?
Hridayesh: Uh, the first journalist went from India regroup, but that was a route taken, uh.[01:16:00]
And, uh, after that, uh, we reached to a place because there are many obstructions. Mm-hmm. So we reached to a place called Gangi, uh, where Hot water springs are there. Mm-hmm. So there a big bridge has fallen down. Uh, so they had made arrangements by rope. You can cross and some villagers had crossed. Mm. We requested them.
Let us do Also, you have N-D-R-F-S-D-R-F people there. NVU. They could have done it. Mm. They denied us. They, some of them said off the record, we can't allow you. Mm. They were not very open, but they wanted to tell us that. See, we are. So we said, you come and say this on record so that we may have this thing, we can run this news that we are not being allowed when you can.
So you weren't allowed to go
Abhinandan: all the way.
Hridayesh: Yes. So we, uh, climbed down. We, we went down the hill and then crossed the river and then, uh, went up. And I'm, I, I should really, you know, appreciate Ashish. I, I never thought, because I, I, I [01:17:00] have been there. Uh, but that was really, um, you know, that was a call we took, but not only us, there were 10 journalists, um, far fitter than me.
I was the most buzzard, most oldest of the lot. Mm-hmm. So, uh, those people, uh, we, we climbed up, then we walked around three kilometers and then we again tried to cross the river, found another, the thing, but it was dark. And where do you spend the night? Ha. So we came back. We came back and, uh, spent the night in Ed Haba, the very, uh, very generous person.
He gave us food and everything, uh, place to sleep and all this. I hope
Abhinandan: we have some videos and footage I wanna put there part of this hta, because you know what it's like to report reporting is not just sitting here writing the story that. Last and easiest part, going on the ground is the hardest part, and that is why News Laundry tries to focus more on ground reporting than opinion pieces.
Our podcasts are opinion pieces. They're just, you know, gabfests and chitchat, but are ground reports are powered by you. Ashish is a [01:18:00] producer. He sometimes use hafta, sometimes often. Awesome. Uh, and Relish. Thank you so much for reporting on this. You can see relish reports. The links will be in the show notes, but all this is done because you support a journalism.
Here's the QR code. Again, please scan it, scan the QR code flashing on your screen, and, uh, avail of the Independence Day offer. Manisha your home state, is it? Does it concern you? What is happening to it? Every year we see worse. I did a
Manisha: lot last on and why it's terrible. Mm-hmm. But two things, so you can listen to that.
Right. But two important things that I noted from reporting. One is he's still meeting families of victims who are in complete dark, like the three women that you met ish who are saying, uh, they've lost, one of them is searching for their husbands. Uh, one of them, I think the nephew. So the government is [01:19:00] still sticking to like in every tragedy now, it's become almost an investigative reporting endeavor to figure out the death toll.
They're just not putting out the death toll. The number of people would've died the list because at least the families need some closure and need some understanding of what's happening. So I found that disturbing that people were still very unsure of what exactly has happened to their loved ones. The second thing is this gentleman that you speak to.
Who kind of suggests what, off the record, maybe the police told you, but he's saying that the media's being sto, at least during Kadana, the media was showing what was happening here. It seems like the media has been completely, you know, been trying to control and not show the damage that's been done. So we feel a little left out in terms of the media spotlight.
So maybe you could comment on that, but I find it, especially worrying that it's been a week. You know, people are still searching for their loved ones, and there's no clarity from the authorities [01:20:00] on what's happened to them.
Hridayesh: Not searching, but they know that, uh, the searches of, uh, for, for no benefit, no use.
And, uh, they're, they're, they think, because I spoke the, the girl you are trying, uh, you, you mentioned Komal. Her, she was in Akashi and her husband died, uh, before going to her house in Ali. I met in Raha, which was closer to Delhi, uh, to her, uh, which is aunt. And she was crying like anyone. And she was saying in her video, um, we, we showed, she said that, you know, why can't we find him?
It's very, very, you know, question is very logical, and this is very, uh, question one, one should ask, you know, in, uh, 221, I covered this for news, laundry. This, uh, Rishi Gang flood, 200 people died. Everybody forgot. Not no, no. Talk about them. 200 people missing. It means they died. They never came back. 4,500 around is the official figure.
I told you more than 10,000 died, but at least that time I could stand [01:21:00] up there and I could say, this government is of no use. I also said that, look, I also told, uh, bola that time when I interviewed him, I said, do you know, uh, you are his parachute chief minister? Why do you say this? Because I, I said, you don't know where is gal and where is Kuma?
Where is, which shrine is where this thing, we could say this, but this time, you know, 1, 3, 4 fifth layer layer, officer will can say that, you know, goodbye. We can't, basically, no one can even. Hold the government accountable. So, uh, this is what they have no list of. Uh, at least now of, until now, I know of missing people, but they have list of people who have been evacuated.
But those who are evacuated, we have done a, a report also people from Ggo three, the tourists, people from, uh, you know, uh, other parts who are tourists and pilgrims. Fair enough. They should also be, uh, you know, uh, be out of the place. But you can't say that these are people we have got out and they are not disastrous struck people.
They're stranded there. Yeah, they're tourists. They're not rescued. There is difference between rescued and, uh, you know, stranded people. [01:22:00] So, uh, and they are showing it like that. But, uh, what can we say? I mean, this,
Manisha: I, meanwhile, today news came out that Rahan government has all the time to amend marriage laws.
Basically. Stringent.
Abhinandan: Yeah. Yeah. They, they live in rules. The most bizarre Live in rules. Yeah.
Manisha: No, live in rules, but also that. Stringent rules for conversion. Conversion, social media. See, see,
Hridayesh: see how
Manisha: forcing anyone to marry. So they have all the time to think about all this. But
Hridayesh: a great example is when the first video came out, we had not reached this spot, and I, I, I called Manisha and nato.
I said, we can include this video because this shows the problem. There. People were shouting that Modi, it means, uh, ham means sit in the sun and sun bath kind of thing. Okay? Because Modi even went there a few months back, said that we will have apo tourism. People were very angry and doing this. But when, when I went and then on the spot, the aggression was very private, I could find something on camera, [01:23:00] but people were, had, did not have the courage to speak because either they thought.
That, uh, we were, we will be denied what, whatever we can get. Mm-hmm. And it was, well, the people were around their people. Mm. Or their loyalty, you know, again, the, they'll be towards this mo So yeah. So this I could say, because how can, how can it happen when, uh, 20 people are shouting the slogan? And I don't have, people are very angry.
Some people, and I, but because people who had lost their loved one, I didn't want to, you know,
but people are very, like, you, you, you listen to the Komal and the, the, the victim's wife, uh, his, his sister, Rocky, and other person, they were all. Other person who died, I am forgetting his name. Uh, go. He said, they said in the home, the first victim we have shown,
but we have right to go to the place and Right. That's, you know, at least more together. That's
Abhinandan: true. Yeah, [01:24:00] that's true. Let us grieve. Well, unfortunately too. Uh, watch reports and, uh, thank you for supporting our journalism. Um, do continue to support ad free Journalism and Independence Day. So before we get to the recommendations, we have letters that have been curated by Manisha.
This time, uh, you know, we have a new system. All the letters will be read collectively, the ones that have not been addressed on the regular hafta. In the special one, which is for correspondence, we only entertain emails, criticism, critique, suggestions. From subscribers. So if you're a subscriber, mail us@podcastsatnewsroom.com.
I repeat podcasts@newsroom.com and the subject line, please write hafta or you can click on the link in the show notes, which will open out this little window where you can give us your feedback. And, uh, this week's letters have been curated by Manisha. Please go ahead.
Manisha: So N 7 4 7 says, congratulations to the team for putting fuse propulsion fuel in Raul Gandhi's aba, [01:25:00] a serious request.
Please share the methodology related links to resources and key bottle links freely in posts and videos and audio. And I mean all three freely with the public. Teach the nation to fish. Sadly, it, this will be nice end-to-end project for many p I've tried this for my own constituency and booth, so I don't need teaching.
But really short of time to teach or do this analysis. So we have someone who's helping so many, um, IT professor in fact in figuring out some codes, some easy ways of passing through that data because it's really huge.
Hridayesh: Hmm.
Manisha: I also think a lot of, uh, people like, uh, and are doing a good job putting out very clearly how to fact check, how to search things.
How do you look for, you know, epic numbers and stuff like that. But yeah, if we have any issues, we should probably, uh, put them out. Maybe people can help us out.
Abhinandan: Right.
Manisha: Next letter is by Soya. Hi NL team. I have two questions for Ben. Number [01:26:00] one, in one of his podcasts he had mentioned he had some plans of scaling up news, laundry.
Can you elaborate? Number two, the work which you guys are doing needs to reach every section of the society, more so to the underprivileged ones, but as a subscription based model and just a digital presence that mostly via YouTube grown enough to scale up and reach those sections of society. Keeping in mind that TV media is far more easily accessible to these sections of society, just a word of mouth may not be enough news only to scale up fast.
What are views and plans for that?
Abhinandan: So, as far as scale up plans are concerned, uh, our alliance, uh, and collaboration news media is a part of that. Uh, we now have pretty well integrated social media, tech, uh, management, uh, team. The journalism that we do there is also a lot of overlap. So there are, you know, various resources that are pooled in.
For example, you know, we have maybe a staff strength of 40 or 45, [01:27:00] similar to News Minute. So for us to grow from, you know, 40, 50 people to a hundred without taking ads or. You know, sari ads or compromise our ourselves by accepting funds, uh, it'll take very long, but if we collaborate and we start forming alliances with other organizations, we could double our numbers, you know, within a year, two years.
So that is the plan. And in addition to that, there is another, um, you know, supplementary, um, expansion project, which I cannot share full details of right now. Uh, but uh, yeah, that's, that's as much as I can share for now.
Manisha: Yeah. And YouTube is, uh, you'd be surprised how watched it's actually, it's because of mobile penetration and the most, like, remotest of areas.
A lot of people watch YouTube, especially Hindi in the Hindi heartland. So that's, and most of the YouTube stuff is outside the pay
Abhinandan: and broadcast is dying. I think if you try [01:28:00] to grow too fast, we could fall flat on our face. Um, broadcast is inevitably gonna die as far as news is concerned. So. I'm in Noha and
Jayashree: most people I know who watch broadcast watch it anyway on YouTube as well.
It's, that's the app that they use. It's not that, I mean, once upon a time people would have those. Tarka is in set boxes and things where that's very fast sort of going out.
Manisha: Says I'm an independent structural engineer consultant in and I have visited almost every town in city in the state. Most areas appear to be built with little regard for proper engineering standards, making them vulnerable to disaster.
Even contractors and government engineers often seem unable or unwilling to read and follow engineering drawings, corruption and incompetence further worsen the situation. How are we supposed to fix this?
Abhinandan: A million dollar question
Manisha: ish.
Hridayesh: Yeah. 1, 1, 1 thing at at least can be done, which again, I do not give my own view about this.
People who know how the planning in the ous region can be done, [01:29:00] you cannot go very close to the river and you cannot do what Nathan Gri wants. He wants a, uh, cement wall build, uh, both sides of the river, and that will help the river to, you know, be be in check what happens, that people get, get a false sense of security and make closer, you know, structures once you do such things.
And river, whenever it comes, it breaks everything in its path. So one thing. It's very important to know that you should give, give River its way. You can't dictate river where, where to flow. And we have enormous evidence, scientific, and, uh, you know, e every day, which we have practically seen. Second thing, it's a seismic zone.
Five, it means highest earthquake prone zone. So that should also be taken into account, but this hardly happens.
Abhinandan: There was one name from a poem that we studied in school and I remember the, the line 'cause it was explained to me, had [01:30:00] hmm, which means the waterfall will always cut through the mountain. The waterfall will not be stopped.
So you can't alter the, the way of, uh, a river clearly
Manisha: per side. Taja has written two letters, the second letter AB has responded to in detail. So I hope you received that response per and your first email. You say that you are disappointed that we could not find time to discuss both allegations by ECI bar Gand.
ECI, Gandhi, but we're discussing Trump tariffs for two straight weeks. It's all the more confounding because Anna itself has la The fact that many mainstream media seem to be deliberately ignoring these serious allegations, I expected at least a d discussion on request, publish a timeline of all the controver allegations and slight changes of law with regard to ECI so that readers can see the whole picture of how there's a slow but mature application of its duties by the eci.
I so had a long discussion on both Cho and, uh, the idea was that we don't repeat the same, uh, kind of themes on and [01:31:00] little detailed discussion on ECI. Uh, uh, we discussed looking at Trump tariff, but from a diplomacy point of view, not a economics point of view, but, well, this week we've discussed a bit of both jury, so hopefully that satisfies
Abhinandan: you.
Right.
Manisha: But, uh, yeah, we had a Sunset Watch episode, uh, which discussed this in detail. We had. Tania had a podcast and of course Chacha had a detailed discussion. So that says, hi news laundry team. I was eager waiting for the response that came in from the mm-hmm. News laundry team regarding the point of view, agreeing with the government's line and not cross questioning it when it is part of the formal announcement.
I had an eerie feeling when Sanjeev said what he said I was particularly impressed. Could not appreciate though I was particularly impressed by AB, who provided a simple yet effective rebut to the same. This is the organization I so happily I'm a subscriber of, will continue to be. Thank you for holding the fork.
I nursing and I injury currently already apologize for the word count and spelling errors. I'm unable to listen to the complete article [01:32:00] on NL website sharing screenshot, requesting support. Okay. Yes, the AI readout should work, so we'll look into that.
Abhinandan: Thank you, Shar. Appreciate it.
Manisha: Or says hello. I sent two subscriber letters to HTA on April 5th.
Don't use AI for subscriber letters. AB then mentioned my name to end of of the episode, acknowledging the letter was received. My first special subscriber take episode. Well, we shall read that letter. I, I heard the whole first subscriber take episode. My letter was not read. Okay, second letter I sent around 15 June.
Um, I heard the whole second subscriber take episode. My letter was again, not read. So two letters of yours not been read. We shall see about that, but I'm reading this now. I don't know if my opinions are good. Important enough, whatever. If you are picking, choosing what to read, just let me know. I'll be okay with it.
But you committed to read them when they're under one 50 words. Therefore, I've read letter out. Um, my one letter to offer and awesome was prompt read and I had a [01:33:00] good time communicating with the host through my letter.
Abhinandan: So
Jayashree: obviously this is, this must be just a slip, I think. Yeah, I dunno. I not at all on purpose.
Abhinandan: I don't know why it wasn't read, but I think it may be something to do with, since you are Bengali and Ra Bengali, she will never let. Fellow Bengali is let it go unrecognized, whereas these Punjabi producers of mine are ignoring.
Hridayesh: Yeah. Well that was a, a, a spirited defense. I did not anticipate, but
Abhinandan: Right.
But thank you so much. Aha. We will, uh, read the first one out in this, the next one. Just please make a note of it. Oh, dear Amit. Uh, yeah. So now before we wind up, uh, recommendations for the week, Esh, do you wanna go first? Uh, RI
Jayashree: Yeah, I have, uh, two excellent recommendations, guys. Um, so the first one is that for the longest time I did not know how the internet worked.
Like I. There are a lot of things I don't know [01:34:00] in life, but one things about tech are the ones that really fail me. And so only quite like maybe a few years ago I realized that the internet relies on undersea cables. So there are like 800,000 miles of undersea cables and there're thin as a garden hose.
And every time you send an email or watch a reel or you know, transfer money in your I-C-S-C-I bank account, you are using those cables to get things done. And these cables are constantly breaking. So this is a fantastic story in the Verge. It's very long. It's the story of the 22 aging ships that fix these cables every time they break.
And it's very like backbreaking work that lies somewhere between heavy construction and neurosurgery. So that's the sort of skill and finesse that you need to get this done. So it's just about these men, these ships, how they work, what they do, what it's like, and it's like an insight into a world that had no idea about.
So please read it.
Hridayesh: Mm-hmm. And my
Jayashree: second is an essay in The New Yorker, which talked about how, um, refrigeration has fundamentally changed flavor, so. It technically, [01:35:00] refrigeration goes against the natural order of life. You shouldn't be able to eat apples in summer and bananas in winter or whatever. But that's what we do nowadays.
And so over the years, food has been made and processed in a way to make it palatable to eat after refrigeration. So there was this paper that was written in 19 level, which said, the generation of people who remember what food tastes like before ation refrigeration will eventually die. And the generation that follows will never know the difference and Wow.
Yeah, and I thought that was so interesting, like I didn't even think of it. So this essay basically talks about how flavor has fundamentally changed because of the fridge. So yeah, although in India, I think we still tend to eat seasonally still. This is more than the us. Yeah. So I think this is very much like a Western application because it talks about like hamburger patties, it talks about tomatoes and things, but ours is not quite the same.
But still, it's the idea that a generation does not know what food tastes like. Interesting. Hmm.
Hridayesh: Yeah.
Manisha: I have three fantastic [01:36:00] recommendations and everyone must read them. Comp compulsory is
Abhinandan: not optional. Compulsory, compulsory
Manisha: on Independence Day, have to read these beautiful three essays. I'm very happy that News Laundry has them.
You're listening to this podcast on 16th of August, so they should all be on our website. One is a lovely essay by Anan. He's traced the history of patriotic songs, uh, from Tessa to Roche.
Hridayesh: Very good. You
Manisha: know, what makes a patriotic song viral, so to speak, or what makes it really, which are the songs that kind of get left off as just social critique and which ones really become part of our, you know, mission loving whatever library.
So it's really beautiful piece and it makes you think a little bit, I'm very upset you didn't add a num.
But anyway, it's there. Um, so it's a fun piece. Second is a piece by [01:37:00] Wake Call. Uh, I thought it's a function of me coming closer to that. I really romanticize my youth, but I, but now like is backing it economically. So he talks about how there's a certain sense of optimism around India in the early two thousands, routine comparisons to China.
There was this thing in the air. You know, even when need speak to wealth managers that we are really going somewhere and why we've completely lost that over the last decade. And I think it's a very important read. Third one is a beautiful essay by RAG minus Verma, who I think is just a fantastic writer.
He really is.
Hridayesh: It's
Manisha: like a satirical take to through all the idiosyncrasies around celebrating August 15th, the free lados in school. Uh, you know, the fancy dress competitions that we did during Independence Day celebration and what it really means this day and independence. So all three wonderful essays, reflective Great reads.
Check them out on news [01:38:00] only.com.
Hridayesh: Okay. So as I jokingly always say that, uh, everybody says, in including my colleagues in News, laundry, that I always bring, uh, uh, grim stuff on table. So I don't recommend grim things upbeat
Abhinandan: today. We haven't optimistic with,
Hridayesh: yeah. Uh, my recommendations are always, and last time also I gave very, um, Jim Corbett's, my India, and that was very, very happy book.
Oh one is about, uh, bill Atkins, uh, book, which is available in English. I have translated in Hindi. But because your readers will, would like to love, uh, read in English. So it is, it, it is, uh, foot lose in the Himalaya. Mm. Foot lose in the Himalaya is the book, uh, one should read because the whole thread line of the book, the thread of the book is that the best experiences of Himalaya you get at the lower heights, you don't have to go climb much higher.
He documents the expeditions at the summits, which brings out the worst of the human beings to get the, you [01:39:00] know, that, that, to, to get your flag out there in the top of the mountain, you can do anything right. And you will find a lot of people who, who deny to, uh, be part of a summit because they, they, they thought that it is part of, you know, fanning cocky nationalism.
Abhinandan: Mm. Also, also, Messner had written that book, right? Um, uh, above 18,000 feet or something where he says that the rule is that once you're there. You should not. The value system changes if you are submitting and you see someone dying.
Hridayesh: Yeah.
Abhinandan: You will summit.
Hridayesh: Yeah. Yeah.
Abhinandan: You've signed up for that. Yeah.
Hridayesh: But there is one person since you said this very important thing.
One person, the first name I'm missing is some who was part of the Indian Summit. Indian Summit, which concurred Mm. He returned and he was fitter than many else, many other people. He, he returned because he, he, he had to bring oxygen for someone, right? He couldn't, uh, be part of the, you know, his name is not there.
But this was told, uh, to me by Shehar Patak. So, bill Atkins Foot in Himalaya is a wonderful [01:40:00] book, which, uh, is, uh, in the, under the name at Kinka Himalaya by me. But, you know, you read the English one, uh, this wonderful book. Another, uh, I want to, uh, name, uh, people Should know about, uh, George Love. Uh, I don't know how to pronounce his second name.
So second, uh, recommendation is, uh, people should know about George Love, uh, who was, uh. Old time com of, uh, admin Hillary, and he was part of the first summit in 1953. I see. He was the first, uh, team to reach and it was led by John Hunt. So, uh, his book, I will give the name of the book. Uh, one must read because, uh, the, the Forward or, or the introduction of the book was written by, uh, Edmund Hil, but he was such an important person.
The book is written by him. He has actually co-authored with some other person. Okay. So that third thing, uh, which is my self-promotion is that, uh, which I told that my own YouTube channel. Tomorrow I'll tell how. A beautiful lake is built using, uh, you know, [01:41:00] filtering the sea. You know, OO often we see sea, we in the urban parts of country as a burden, as a curse, but sea is actually a resource, right?
People are making filtering sea to make, you know, water, which can be used for many things in some countries drinking also. So, uh, Dr. Sierra Babu of Delhi University has made a beautiful lake. His steam, uh, in the, uh, in, in Delhi only you, you can find it and how it works. Without uni using any STP plant, it means there is no use of energy, no use of electricity, no use of energy.
Wow. And this must be seen. And once you know, I, I'm not telling the name, you will say, wow, you know, the, the place, but you have never been there. Absolutely. So I, I'll do a video, which will be released tomorrow at 5:00 PM
Abhinandan: Right. So we will, um. Please send us a name.
Hridayesh Joshi: And I, I, I, I'm just promoting it as a gift on independence due to my subscribers, please.
Of course.
Abhinandan: So I have, uh, three Recomme. I thought all
Hridayesh: none
Abhinandan: of them is grim. No, no. None at all. Upbeat. These
Jayashree: are great recommendations.
Abhinandan: I have [01:42:00] three recommendations on the intersection of environment psychology.
Hridayesh: Yeah.
Abhinandan: And animal love. Yeah. One is a piece in psychology Today. Why do people love their dogs? And by love they mean like, really love.
We not using the word love casually. People really love their dogs, unlike just liking something. And why do people love their dogs? So that is one recommendation. The second is the. Piece from the New York Times. Um, dogs and cats and the environmental impact. We love our dogs and cats, but are they bad for the environment?
It's a good eyeopener. And a third one, which was sent to me by Avlo, um, he said, I've found someone who hates golf courses as much as you. It's a Malcolm Gladwell's podcast, revisionist history. A good walk spoiled where he, it's shocking. And I'm, I suspect if you were to investigate Delhi, it's similar, the amount of money, the most exclusive and expensive golf [01:43:00] courses in LA save on property tax because of a loophole where middle class people are paying much more and the best parts of the city are.
Exclusively reserved for a few thousand people for golf courses, the resources they use, what they pay to the city, how they find loopholes and get away with it. Uh, yeah, that's my view on golf, uh, and how it is the most inverted, uh, way of making the most expensive things cheapest for the richest in the country at the cost of the poor golf courses, epitomize that, as far as I'm concerned,
Jayashree: golf flowers deserve it.
Like if you're a gold flower, there is funda something fundamentally not feeble, but there is something fundamentally wrong about your approach.
Manisha: Golf as
Jayashree: like,
Manisha: yeah, as insane as I mean about both. They love it as much as dogs. People love their dogs.
Abhinandan: For nine years, I drove [01:44:00] around the country shooting high on my plate.
So, you know, as you can imagine, four adult men all very outspoken, all very combative. So there were lots of disagreements, but the one that really was at the brink was when I said, golf is not a sport. And Rocky sitting at the back said, really? And how heated that argument got. I was like, dude, Rocky, you've never fought about anything as much as this.
So yeah, that's what golf does. No, it
Manisha: requires great skill. I, I wouldn't say, yeah,
Abhinandan: that's right. But we've had this conversation before, but we shall end this podcast with a national integration song on independence. Not on the obvious ones, but this is more about stranding an independent media. 'cause that as my email that has gone out to many of our, uh, you know, viewers, watchers, readers, is what is often the first line and sometimes the last line of defense for a democracy.[01:45:00]
So, thank you, Manisha. Thank you Ri Thank you. Uh, uhh. Thank you to our wonderful, uh, sound recorders. Na. Thank you Amit, and thank you Pali. Uh, have a fantastic independence day. Be good, work hard, and do what you can to keep your independence intact
Song: and never pay that
there's a,
and if you don't, throw in your buckle
freedom calls a.[01:46:00]
-: Thank you for your subscription. You are changing the world by changing the way News is funded for the smoothest news laundry experience. Download the News Laundry app. It is the best way to listen to our paywall podcasts, and you'll also get access to all free news laundry shows. Keep us ad free and subscriber funded.
Help us grow. Tell people who listen to you to pay to keep news free. Subscribe to News Laundry. Keep journalism independent.
Newslaundry is a reader-supported, ad-free, independent news outlet based out of New Delhi. Support their journalism, here.
