This week on Hafta, Newslaundry’s Newslaundry’s Abhinandan Sekhri, Manisha Pande, Jayashree Arunachalam, Raman Kirpal and Shardool Katyayan are joined by senior journalist and CGNet Swara’s co-founder Shubhranshu Choudhary.
We start with a discussion on the killing of 27 suspected Maoists in Chhattisgarh this week and analyse if the Maoist movement in the state has declined. Shubhranshu says, “We don’t agree with the strategy, but it is hugely successful… This war has been won by the Bastariyas (residents of Bastar) themselves who gave information.”
However, he warns that unresolved issues like mining and lack of development could reignite tensions, asking, “What will be our development policy? That will determine whether Maoism will be dead.”
Jayashree raises concerns about the accuracy of government claims, questioning, “Should we be more suspicious when the government says it’s killed dozens of Maoists?” She highlights the lack of judicial scrutiny in encounters, citing, “I think of thousands of encounters that have happened in Bastar in the last 25 years. There’ve only been two judicial inquiries.”
Abhinandan adds, “There’s an overlap of mining interests in media interests – even in ownership,” and Manisha stresses on political representation for a better future for Bastar’s residents. “If militants in the Northeast can join the BJP, why not here? Political representation matters. It gives people real options.”
This and a lot more. Tune in!
Hafta letters: India’s security, Manmohan Singh, Manisha on Sindoor
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Song: Blowing in the wind
Timecodes
00:00:00 – Introductions
00:06:51 – Headlines
00:16:59 - Operation Black Forest
01:13:52 – Letters
01:36:04 – Recommendations
References
Let's call him Vasu: With the Maoists in Chhattisgarh
Recommendations
Shubhranshu
शाल वनों का द्वीप / Shaal vanon ka Dweep
Jayashree
Jayant Narlikar: A Voice That Lit The Cosmos
How to Read a Sentence: The Supreme Court’s Order in Mahmudabad’s Case
A polar bear cub, gifted by Russia to Madras Zoo in 1955, couldn’t survive the heat
Manisha
Full Text | Ashoka University Professor Ali Mahmudabad's Posts
Malini Subramaniam’s pieces in Scroll
Sudha Bharadwaj on activism, human rights in India
Raman
Suhas Palshikar writes on Pahalgam and free speech: How liberal is this democracy?
SC order in Mahmudabad case casts a shadow on our rights
Is establishing the truth a problem during a conflict?
Shardool
How One Company Secretly Poisoned The Planet
Claire Obscure: Expedition 33
Abhinandan
Jon Stewart Slams CNN’s “Bombshell” Biden Book Promo Amidst Cancer Diagnosis
How economists (and TikTok) know if a recession is coming
Check out previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters
Produced by Priyali Dhingra.
Recorded by Hassan Bilal and Anil Kumar.
Production assistance by Ankit Raj.
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Manisha: [00:00:00] This is a News Laundry podcast, and you're listening to NL Hafta
Abhinandan: News Hafta. Welcome to another episode of Hafta. We're recording this on the 23rd of May at 1115 in the morning. Uh, it has been a pretty, um, news heavy week. Uh, and before we get into the headlines, I'd like to introduce our panel. Uh, we have our guest in the story who has very kindly um. Made the time to come and sit with us.
Thank you so much. I will have to introduce you formally, uh, although many of our listeners and viewers may already know who you are. So thanks to Branch for coming to Branch. Three, ladies and gentlemen is a very experienced veteran, journalist and co-founder of CG Net. Is that correct? Did I get that right?
You got it
Song: right. [00:01:00]
Abhinandan: Uh, he's worked as BBC South Asia producer for more than a decade before starting work on experiments for democratization of media in the forest of Central India. He won the Google Digital Activism Award in 2014 and was also named as one of the hundred leading Global Thinkers in 2014 by Foreign Policy Magazine.
Uh, so, um, what is. The experiments for democratization of media and the Forest Central India. What, what is your, that
Shubhranshu: CG net were, uh,
Abhinandan: so what is your stated objective, uh, you know, desired outcome of, of that pursuit? What, what is it that you're doing?
Shubhranshu: So, the war, which we are hope to discuss today, uh, I grew up in that forest.
I see, uh, my parents are refugees. They came from what is now Bangladesh. Mm-hmm. And, uh, as a journalist, when I visited, we reported this five killed and seven injured, as we always do. But I, uh, grew up with [00:02:00] Go tribals. Uh, and as you know, 99% of what we call the terrorists are made of these go tribals. So when I started spending more time, you know as a journalist, when you go and mainly with television, I was with B, B, C, you don't have much time.
You do one interview here, one interview there, a few pictures and you know, you rush. So I kept going back. India is huge. You know, there's a little bit of India after Delhi as well, and they have no voice. Politics has democratized, everybody has one vote,
Abhinandan: but media is not democratized.
Shubhranshu: 80% of India probably doesn't get 20% space.
Hmm. So can media be democratic? So that was my intervention. So I left my job and started living with them. [00:03:00] Uh, can everybody tell their own story?
Abhinandan: And if I may ask, how is it that you grew up there? I mean, were your parents working there as you know?
Shubhranshu: Yeah, my father went to work there in the railways.
Abhinandan: I see.
So you at the government and you just happened to be in that area?
Shubhranshu: Yeah, and I grew up in a very small railway station, which has only one school, and it was run by the tribal welfare department. So that was the only school there. And all my classmates, uh, uh, were, uh, uh, from tribal community. So I got educated and I became a journalist.
And uh, I started working with BBC. And here, when I go back, uh, I find some of my classmates there No
Abhinandan: where
Shubhranshu: within Marists is that right? And that is the start of journey of this democratization of media experiment.
Abhinandan: So you've had very uh. Interesting insider stake on it. I mean, over time, not just for like a [00:04:00] short period.
You, you, you've, you've known what they're thinking since you
Shubhranshu: It took me, it took me, it took me many years. They were saying in Hindi, uh, like we are sitting under a tree, you know, uh, and they'll tell me,
can you make media like air? I didn't understand what they're they saying. So these are not scientists, these are not journalists. These are not thinkers. You know, these are simple ade boys and girls. Half of them are girls, as you know, right. In Mao party. Um, they said, see, we are talking what is the medium?
We are using air. I said, yes. Who owns this? Neither you nor I. It's nature. So nature has given us democratic media. You guys have made a media, which is controlled by your [00:05:00] boss. So you report for your boss. Your boss wants our forest, your boss wants our river. Why will you report about us?
Abhinandan: And that's also because there's an overlap of mining interests in media interests.
Um, even in ownership
Raman: today, we have this news. Yes, the mining rights have been given, uh, clearly. Uh, they are going to cut 1.23 lack trees. Mm-hmm. And, uh, over 900 hectare of forest land. I mean, the Ministry of Environment has given the permission two, uh, to, uh, to one company, Lloyd, I think, and uh, in Oli
Shubhranshu: Oli.
Yeah.
Raman: Oli and Mata government has immediately started. On it.
Abhinandan: Nice. So we'll get into the detailed discussion on this, but that's our guest ri. Uh, before we get the headlines request, uh, many of you have expressed your love, support, and concern over a case [00:06:00] that we are already proud of. Our colleague, Manisha and other lady colleagues who work at News Laundry between the ages of 22 and 35, that, that, that bracket have filed.
Uh, and many of you have said, can you contribute and can you help in any way? So your good wishes are enough. Your subscriptions keep us going because we don't have to depend on anybody else. Uh, and since many of you asked, here's a QR code, um, you can contribute. You can subscribe, and you can help power standing for not just reporting for news, but also standing up for what is right.
So thank you all. Um, we can have the headlines and get into the discussion after. Sorry, I didn't use, there is a panel I took you for granted.
Jayashree: It's
Abhinandan: okay. Gki one. So
Jayashree: upsetting. So upsetting du
Abhinandan: Hello Tu Hi Gki Manisha pane.
Jayashree: Hello.
Abhinandan: And joining us from Chen is Jeri.
Jayashree: Hello? Yes.
Abhinandan: [00:07:00] Now that's the panel and now the headlines.
Jayashree: Yes. So it's been a busy week. Updates in India and Pakistan. Pakistan's Army Chief General Asim has been promoted to the rank of Field Marshall. This is the first such promotion in nearly 60 years in India. Prime Minister Modi has said the Indian armed forces made Pakistan kneel during Operation Du. He said The world and India's enemies have now seen what happens when.
Sindu turns to gunpowder and that Guam Sindu runs through his beans.
Manisha: Sounds very odd And English. Yes. That imagery is horrible. Although there was
Abhinandan: a Bollywood film by that name. Uh, du Guru, not Guam.
Shardool: Sounds like a
Abhinandan: You know what? No, no, it does not sound
or something. It was, it's something along that full, you've gone into a different zone
Jayashree: bar also. Anyway, all this, even as a [00:08:00] soldier was killed in action in India and two others wounded during a gun battle with a group of Jewish terrorists in Kichwa district on Thursday. Yeah.
Shardool: Before we actually move on.
And everybody like Moji saying Ur veins like it's made up of lead. I hope not. The major consequences lead, you'll have lead poisoning.
Manisha: That's a corruption of no, no S is
Shardool: made from lead. Now
Abhinandan: what? We never maintain it not, it wasn't earlier.
Jayashree: Right. The union government has announced a formation of seven delegations that will visit key partner countries, including members of the UN Security Council.
It includes 31 NDA leaders and 20 politicians from other parties. YouTuber has been accused by Ana police of spying for Pakistani intelligence. She's amongst 10 people in total who have been accused of such activities so far. This is across both Punjab and Ana. I think she's a travel vlogger.
Manisha: The media coverage again, uh, is just horrific with this [00:09:00] flashing her personal pictures, making all sort of insinuations about her affairs.
There's no proof of any of that. Yeah, IA Police has not said any of that, but it's complete character. They're doing. What they did
Abhinandan: is R they haven't learned the lesson. Same thing. Same. They really don't care.
Jayashree: The other big news of the week is Raju, the leader of the band, communist Party of India. Maoist, was amongst 7 27 suspected Maoist killed in a gunfight with security forces in Chaska home Minister Amed Shah described him as the backbone of the Naxal movement, said his killing as a landmark achievement in the battle to eliminate Maxism.
I believe the central government has said it'll do this by March, 2026. The union government also says, operation Black Forest has concluded during which 54 suspected males have been arrested. With this more than 185 suspected maoists have been killed in gunfights this year in news from the courts, the Supreme Court granted interim bail to Ashoka University Professor Ali k Uba.
He was arrested for his social media post and operation du, but the court refused to stay. The [00:10:00] investigation against him termed his statements dog whistling.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Jayashree: The Bangalore police filed a Bangalore police, filed an FIR against Amit Malvia and Adab GOs Swami for falsely claiming the Istanbul Congress Center is an office of the Indian National Congress. And this, this was, sorry, go ahead. So stupid. No, I mean, and, and this man is
Abhinandan: opening
Jayashree: a
Abhinandan: journalism school. Yes. I mean the kind of, I just, I mean this, it's not even, there's no punchline.
I mean, he is the set line. He is the punchline and he's the punchline to the punchline that now learn journalism from me.
Jayashree: But the joke is on us.
Abhinandan: Yeah. The joke is on us. Not really on us. The joke is on the people who watch and, uh, and, and in not insist, but think that ad funded journalism gets, gets them news.
Jayashree: Now the Supreme Court rejected the apology by BJP leader and mad minister je sha his remarks on Colonel Sophia Koi. [00:11:00] It's now ordered the formation of an SIT to look into the matter in Albad. The high court has refused to quash the up police's, FIR against Mohammad Bert. This is because he put up a social media post that criticized Ang nursing aans in ndi remarks on the prophet
Abhinandan: and, sorry, on the earlier headline.
Uh, this minister, while all this, he still has not been removed. No, the party has not Rule. Party hasn't taken any action. No actions. Zero action has been taken yet. So just And,
Raman: and the same, same party, uh, the party which is ruling had, uh, brought in SoFi, you know, as this spokesperson?
Abhinandan: No, not, not, they have not, not said anything.
What they have said has been in support of him. Yeah. Yeah. His, the, his local BJP colleagues.
Shardool: Right. I meant there hasn't been no official stance or reprimand for him.
Jayashree: The Supreme Court ripped into the enforcement directorate for crossing all limits and violating the concept of federal governments. This is when it was [00:12:00] during a hearing on the Ed's raid on Smac, which is LAN Liquor Policy.
Satan Liquor Shops in ro. The bench led by Chief Justice said You may register cases against individuals, but corporations, your ED is passing all limits.
Abhinandan: Yeah, I mean, I really hope the Supreme Court comes down heavily and what I, I think this is
Raman: second time Ed has been called out, you know?
Abhinandan: Yeah. But I mean, in the past
Raman: recent days, I would tell, I
Abhinandan: mean, of course they've had egg on their face enough times.
But also, I liked what the Chief Justice said, I think this week or last week, that, uh, the judiciary, the executive and the legislature are, no one is Supreme. It's the constitution that is supreme. Yeah. So no one can claim supremacy over the other that, you know, we are democratically elected, so we, you know, are higher than the, because that is what the insinuation of some, I guess Ill read or, uh, illiterate, BJP, you know, member seems to be, [00:13:00] I think Justice Gwai clarified.
Mm-hmm. For those illiterates, no, that's not how it works.
Jayashree: The CBI has filed a charge sheet against former Jamon Kashmir, governor Sattal Malik, and seven others. This is over alleged corruption in the award of a 2,200 Crow Civil Works contract for a Pedro Power project.
Raman: Wasn't it when he was BJPA appointee governor?
It must have, yeah. He was,
Abhinandan: in fact, he, he had said that he was asked to bend the rules first. Ah hmm.
Jayashree: Also, three days before this, he had posted on Twitter saying he's getting many phone calls, but he's been admitted in hospital and it was a very distressing photo right of him lying in bed. So, Mr. Misam has become India's first fully literate, literate state the chief minister declared on Tuesday.
The literacy rate in Misam has crossed the 95% mark, which is considered to be equivalent to full literacy by the education ministry. But
Abhinandan: why first wasn't Kerala there already? [00:14:00]
Jayashree: I think that data is from 2011 or something though. I see. Okay. So. Um, the International Booker Prize 2025 has been awarded to Hot Lamp, a collection of 12 short stories by Canada writer Nu Muta, and translated by Dipa bti.
This marks the first time a Canada book and a short story collection has won the prize, and she's Dipa has become the first Indian translator to receive this honor. Also, I think there's been no congratulations yet from the central government, which is surprising.
Abhinandan: Yeah,
Jayashree: 57% of districts in India are now facing extreme heat risks according to a new study by the Council on En Energy Environment and water.
And these districts are home to 76% of the world's pop of the country's population.
Abhinandan: A good time for us to remind you of News LA's Campaign, which is not just for a particular time on stories on the climate, uh, our right to breathe while we are pegging it around the quality of air, not in [00:15:00] Delhi, across India, because now this.
You know, uh, criminally high a QI has reached Bangalore, Bombay, et cetera. But it is influenced by a bunch of climatic factors. So we want to spend a lot more time, energy, effort, and funds in doing stories right to the climate. So there's a QR code, uh, you can contribute to that fund. Also, you can help us not just with money.
You can also help us in filing RTIs in telling us what the a QI in your areas at specific times. There's an entire page. As you scan this, you'll come to a page. You can click on the link in the show notes below and see in the many ways that you can get involved so that we can help cover the climate in a more comprehensive and productive way.
Jayashree: Great. The IMF has imposed 11 new conditions on Pakistan, the release of Next Fund Tran as part of its Baylor program. The agency also warned that rising tension between India and Pakistan, if sustained or deteriorated further. Could heightened risks to the fiscal, external and reform goals of the program.
Abhinandan: Hmm. [00:16:00]
Jayashree: In Washington dc, two aids of the Israel embassy was shot dead by a gunman who is reported to have shouted free Palestine. Benjamin Netanya, who has used the murders to now accuse France, Britain, and Canada of emboldening militants. He said they want Israel to stand down and accept that Hamas army of mass murderers will survive.
Since Wednesday, Israel strikes on Gaza have killed at least 85 people. Nathan New says he'll end the war only if Hamas releases all hostages.
Abhinandan: Yeah. Anyway, he's, and
Jayashree: finally, the US Department of Homeland Security has revoked Harvard's ability to enroll international students under the student and exchange visitor program.
I think what that also means is that a bunch of students who are currently studying there will have to make plans to leave.
Abhinandan: Yeah. And the ones who were accepted this year can't go. Yeah. Yep. Anyway, Mr. Trump has got one. A few tips of genuine versus the central government, and he's figuring out how he can do that.
Uh, but yeah, this will go to court as well. [00:17:00] Yeah. But thank you, uh, RI um, another reminder, QR code, please pay to keep ministry, support our journalism so that we are not dependent on ads social branch. Who, um, you, I'm sure it was all over the action, uh, where some top commanders of the Maoists have been gunned down after a long time.
And there is this map, which I don't know how credible it is, which shows that under Amit Sha the quote unquote red corridor has shrunk from a significant trunk to maybe one 10th. And we've, you know, been discussing this for a long time. I mean, you tell us there were, there was a certain point of view that Mao activity actually peaked, uh, during the SC Zs.
When they were being given out big SES chunks of land. And during the very fast growth of the UPA government UPA one, [00:18:00] when, um, there were certain SOPs lands incentives being given to large industrialists at the cost of tribals. Uh, and that is when actually the red record of peak, that is also when Outlook did that cover story.
Uh, which I think, I don't know if he had written or I I may be confusing the two that was, yeah, that was Outlook cover story. Yeah. So, so I, so that was, you know, peak time. Uh, has it really shrunk? Is it just that we cover it less? And when they say that, you know, he's managed to quash Maoism, is it just that they've managed, it's like Kashmir, you know, till five, eight weeks ago, they were boasting.
Kashmir is all quiet. It's become peaceful again. Everything is lovely. Everyone loves everyone. Which our reporters would go on there had told us it's not true. You know, where does the truth lie? And your insights would be invaluable 'cause of the time you've spent, and not just as a journalist, but even as a child.
Shubhranshu: See? And then, uh, the Maoist, uh, movement [00:19:00] today is confined only to ska and the Maoist movement in Bengal where it started. Andra Bihar is different there. It is a Maoist movement. Uh, not many people know. Um, Maoist came to ISHKA when it was not ishka, uh, in early 1980s to hide not to do revolution. So, uh, um, in any place, if there is.
Communist movement or revolution. There is a 50 year history before of, uh, you know, literature of cinema, of songs, of poetry, which has happened in Bengal, which has happened in Nepal, which has happened in Bihar, which has definitely happened in Andra, not in here. They came to hide for 10 [00:20:00] years, they did nothing.
And, uh, when they can't go back to and Pradesh because to hide means it's a strategy. It's called. A rear area strategy. Yeah. So, uh, uh, so to your question, yes, Amit Shah, we don't agree or like with his strategy, but it is hugely successful and, uh, Maoist movement is over. Um, and like Jay, she was telling there was this operation Black Forest, which was a disaster.
Um, they called it the biggest operation against Maoist, which ran for what, three weeks. And there were various numbers. We don't know what the exact numbers, some said 30,000, some say 10,000 people. They claimed that, um, the biggest, uh, Maoist force, which is called Battalion one, they've encircled. [00:21:00] Uh, but um, they could kill only 31.
I'm saying only because, uh. They were claiming there are three 50 people, 500 people, you, no, uh, there was lack of cooperation between, it is in the border of, uh, this Kata Hills. It's in border of Ana and Mahara. So Hur, which you were just talking about. So it'd say around 80 kilometer Carta range, and all the big leaders slipped away.
So we, um, don't like the strategy of only military, uh, but it is hugely successful. And, uh, Mao party's over. Uh, the reason I say, so after Ka gta, I was of the opinion that, uh, what has happened after Ka gta that okay, they couldn't get any of the big leaders, but, uh, battalion one was [00:22:00] fragmented. Um, uh, uh, so in tens and fifteens, you know.
And they have, I mean, armature has given a deadline of 31st March, so when you're in small groups, it is difficult for you to do big operations. But again, at the same time, it is difficult to detect you and it's a huge forest. I. It's called under forest. It's around a hundred thousand square kilometers and it's in six states.
So, and its rain is coming in two weeks time and, uh, it's very difficult to do any operation during rains. So four months is gone. When rains are gone, there won't be much time left. That was my feeling. So this 31st march is not happening is my feeling after kata, but everything changed with killing of Namal Shara, which is the head of Mao party.
So what it looks is, uh, [00:23:00] state is supported by, uh, good tech intelligence now.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm. So technology has made a big difference on this wall. That is
Shubhranshu: my feeling. So what I was feeling that, um, it'll be difficult to detect the smaller groups, which is not the case. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I already know that, um, number two.
So number one was Mr. Rao. Number two. His name is Al, who is issuing press notes almost every week now. His name is Mr. Al, but he's known as Abbe When he's sending these press notes, he's already escaped. Hmm. He left this place abut ma, which is partly in Ro Lee, partly in, uh, that's the headquarter of Mao party from last more than 40 years.
So he's now in safe heaven in somewhere in Telangana. So big leaders are leaving already or have left Many of them. It is, uh, uh, the awa, [00:24:00] which were the 99%, but none in leadership. So this, so, so this movement has no future. Yeah. So
Abhinandan: I mean, I guess that's a good thing, uh, in a sense, because I. Then this kind of violence will not really end with anything positive.
Uh, and, and that's not to say there's no injustice. Of course there's injustice, but I'm not sure this is the best way to address it. While at a human level, it may be, you know, understandable. But it is definitely not at a structural level or a macro level or a governance level, a sustainable way to achieve anything.
Not in 2025. Definitely.
Shubhranshu: And not in India. It may be possible in Afghanistan, in Myanmar, or in Sudan. Even there,
Abhinandan: I'm not sure, you know, at this time. But yeah, it's
Manisha: a cycle that you never really know where it ends.
Abhinandan: But I just had one more question that I'd like to open it up to the panel. And if you could just briefly tell me, when you say the Maoist [00:25:00] movement, you said Shaka didn't have any because it didn't have roots there.
It was this, I mean, they had just come there to hide. It wasn't like it had a. A, a, a historical, cultural kind of, you know, manure, which sprouted this entire ideology. But since you grew up there, you interacted with these people at a very young age. When they say, do they identify as maoists and do they know who MAO was and what his legacy is?
Very little. So it's like, so it's become a, a common, common noun.
Shubhranshu: So like, you know, uh, a girl runs away, you know, to Mumbai, uh, to join the film industry. Uh, 50% of them are girls. Yeah. And I have interacted with hundreds of them, and 99% of them or more told me they were attracted by the dance and drama party.
Uh, Maoist had this, they call it [00:26:00] Manali. Yeah.
Abhinandan: Yes.
Shubhranshu: Who, who will go from village to village? Performing, performing, and all these, so like I was, what I was telling it is different story from Andra, uh, Bengal and Bihar, which is, which was a fight for land and it was a fight of landless people. In forest, there is no land problem.
There is no landlord. You know, you want three more acres, you got more forest. No. So when the Mao came here, what to do, you know, so they invented this movement, and I, and I can go into those details. So it was in reaction of police action. Police was harassing people who joined Maoist and
Abhinandan: also Salva didn't help clearly.
Shubhranshu: Salva was wonderful for Maoist. They wrote articles like Al, I was talking about the more
Abhinandan: recruits than anything else. Yeah.
Shubhranshu: He wrote, thank you Salva. This the current leader of the undercurrent who I wrote a book [00:27:00] about, let's call him Vasu. He's the Vasu. He once told me, we called ourselves People's War.
Mm. There were no people here. People came thanks to police atrocity and Salvager room was the, you know, the peak of it.
Abhinandan: It was the institutionalization of that. In fact, on one thing I will give it to the, you know, I won't say newly minted, but the. Now, um, some of the abusive nationalists who have been embraced by the party as proxies, I remember even on the UPA time, uh, many of them were not, of course, hardcore BJV bucks like they are now, but I remember they used to, uh, argue with me.
Uh, while they didn't support the UPA, they were consistent on supporting salvage. They basically were consistent on supporting violence to crush anything that is, I think that gives them a hardon violence. Let's kill everybody. Let's chop everybody up. And of course, now that it is clearly it was a big failure.
Um, I, we don't hear much on the salvage them [00:28:00] supporters, who many of them now are BJP supporters, but okay. Uh, so clearly Mr. Shah has managed to quell that. But before, uh, you know, after I take it across, I'd like to come back to you that. Does that mean that concerns have also been addressed, or it's just brute force is quelled, but unless those concerns are rest, we can't take for granted that it won't rise again.
But uh, before I do that, uh, Manisha, Raman, ul, you wanna, uh, Jess you wanna go first on what you make of the news that came and how there is a reduction in violence, at least as far as headlines are concerned. I mean, I dunno what's happening inside.
Jayashree: I have a comment, but also, so therefore, like a question for Schu, which is that, um, see at News Laundry, we're a small organization.
We report as much as we can. So we have a reporter called Pratik, who I think I can cite at least 10 stories that Pratik has done in the past couple of years on villagers being branded, Maoists being arrested, being heard away, and who say that they are [00:29:00] innocent, but they are called Mao by the state and often killed.
With little or no proof. So I guess my question, which I don't know if this is the right time to ask it, but should we be more suspicious when the government says it's killed? Dozens of Maoists? I think of thousands of encounters that have happened in Baar in the last 25 years. I think there've only been two judicial inquiries that were headed by retired high court judges.
In both cases, they found all the victims to be innocent. And for me, I link it to how the state also treats people that it presumes to be axle sympathizers. You look at people like Sababa or that Wellow, doctor Benen. So if the state is doing such a shori job of identifying what it calls world's, Maoist sympathizers, should we not be more suspicious of the job it's doing in hunting down the so-called Maos?
Like so when it tells us that 28 have been killed, would you say that it is accurate to say that all 28 were maoists. By definition or is that always open to scrutiny? Especially because it's, you [00:30:00] know, I know you run a, a community thing over there because it is very difficult for the media to report. So therefore what we see in mainstream newspapers and journals and whatever is the official version of events where it's the IGP or whatever who's telling you that X has died and this is diet and here are the pictures of the victims.
So when there's such a reliance on official versions, is there not a lot of room for it to be inaccurate?
Shubhranshu: What you said in the headline that in this year, uh, they've killed 1 45 Ma. Yeah, I go by, let's see, there is other side and other side is Maoists. And when you're doing journalism day to day, it's very difficult to get their version.
But recently, uh, thanks to mobile phones and internet reaching remote areas, we almost get uh, Maoist Press note. If not the same day. Yeah. Second day or third day. And in this last two years, uh, I think [00:31:00] they've killed around 440, which I last counted. There are two incidents where, uh, Maoists claimed that they were, uh, not Maoists, but uh, not only Aha has been hugely successful, uh, but they've killed the quote unquote Maoists because, uh, Maoists have claimed that out of these 27, uh, the Maoist press not, hasn't come yet.
They will tell how many were, uh, their people and her me were not.
Manisha: So they're clearly putting out information that we have lost X number of peoples. Yes.
Jayashree: And, but isn't this also what the villagers say that they're, I mean, on one hand cops are saying that you are Mao or the other hand the Mao are saying, yeah, yeah.
They are Mao and they're like, we are, are often they are living in between. Is that actually the case in some things or not really?
Shubhranshu: So there will be many in between, but I'm talking of last two years and there were I think two incidents where villagers also came out and Mais also said that they were not mais, [00:32:00] but in rest of the cases.
Uh, so, so there have been hu So who is successful? Successful is DRG, not CRPF? Yes. What is DRG? Is surrendered, moist is, uh, know the local Baia boys and like to kill nara. No. CRPF went, they're recruited as in the
Abhinandan: force as this.
Shubhranshu: This is, this is illegal because Supreme Court asked in 2011, uh, in a, um, order that they should not be recruited, but they're hugely successful
Manisha: because they know
Shubhranshu: they have a language.
They know the terrain, they know the people. They know. Say, like I can say I'm not a Maoist, no, because I'm not wearing this green dress. But we were friends. We were in the same side for 20 years. So then you
Abhinandan: know how to take them on.
Shubhranshu: I know who you are. You know who I am. So, so this war is one CRPA for central government has helped.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Shubhranshu: But this [00:33:00] war
Abhinandan: has been won by their own, has been
Shubhranshu: won by the baia themselves. This war was won by people of BA who has given information.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Shubhranshu: Like Cobra. Cobra is the elite CRPF commando. You know, if you send a cobra and don't give it intelligence, it'll hit it the wrong place. And that's what Mao wanted.
You know, they were so happy with Salva. You kill five and if there are wrong people, 25 more join. Mm-hmm. So they will oppose these killings, but they were so happy behind, you know. Oh, wonderful. You know, they should kill more men. They won't stay in public.
Abhinandan: Yeah. But it basically gets that. But this
Shubhranshu: time, see, things have changed 10 years after Salva, when Salva happened, uh, it was so big.
Like Malist movements started in 1990 when S one started that was called Ian.
Abhinandan: Yes,
Shubhranshu: 1980. They came to hide, as I said, till 90. They were, [00:34:00] you know, loitering around, but 90 onwards things are not changing in Andra that they will go back. So they said, okay, we will do revolution here. You know, they, through their head and ti who was before Namah, Kera, the general secretary said, we'll do revolution here.
This guy Al, he's saying it'll not happen here and. The tribal leadership told tribals that, you know, police is harassing you in the name of John Jagar and Abian. You can't go home. You can't, you know, so they're raping, they're killing, they're burning your houses for giving chai and coffee and water to Maui, showing them part.
These are good people. These are here from last 10 years. They helped us and they helped in last 10 years, and we can go into those details, so please join. That was the start of Maoist movement. It was [00:35:00] not like kra, not like Bengal. So it was. A reaction to police action. And that became so big in Salva that there was no place for fence sitting either you'll have to join ma, or basically it's basically you're
Abhinandan: with us again.
So it's like the Bush doctrine kind of thing. So I have a question
Shardool: before I comment. I have a question for, um, uh, Shu uh, Chu, the DRG District Reserve Guard, they came after Salva Lum was completely disbanded and the court decision came. So I wanted to ask you, is there, are there common personnel between people who were in Salva Lum associated in some way and now part of DRG is, is it?
Oh yeah.
Shubhranshu: I don't know the exact number, but yeah. Big number of them is PS they were called Yes. Special police officers. Police officer, yes. Uh, and, uh, they have recruited, uh, many people from bus region as well. Mm-hmm. So this is a hundred percent, uh, local people. Um, and, uh, a big [00:36:00] number surrendered and big number SPOs.
Yes. That's what make DRG
Manisha: in the current operation where they got, uh, Baju. Is it the DRG that went in completely or?
Shubhranshu, Manisha, Shardool: Absolutely. So there's no C rrp? F No. C rrp. F. That's minimal. Minimal. CRP, no, CRPF In this operation?
Shardool: Yeah. I mean, like they were sitting at in the camps.
Manisha: That's quite something. Yeah.
Shardool: Yeah. DRG is the head of the spear,
Manisha: which means actually, then we can confirm that it's really in its last leg.
Because you, if you have, don't have the local support and if you have a unit of local bus areas, like you said, oh yeah. See, see bus, there's no way this movement can,
Shubhranshu: as I said, go on. So 2004, uh, Maoist party went like this, you know, 10 times. The intelligence report says 21 times more. This battalion one was formed just after there's so many people that didn't know what to do, but for 10 years, this continued around 2015.
We were doing the CG nets for there and people are telling their stories and they'll [00:37:00] come to our meetings and they said, I mean, this is okay. This is very good for us. You know, uh, we have a voice. We can tell our stories, our problems are getting solved, but we want this movement to be over
Manisha: so there's no popular support for ma.
So
Shubhranshu: that was the start. So 2000, uh, and oh four, it went up 2014, 15. Nothing to do with Mr. Modi. The same tribal leaders who told them in 1990 that there are good people. If you can't go home, join them. They said, they still said they're good people, they're better than police, you know, they live with us, they speak our language, you know, but their movement.
Is harmful for us in the long run. Like this is not good for our community. Yeah.
Abhinandan: So that, so there was a certain maturity and looking at the long term and the bigger picture in this, even within the community that was [00:38:00] marginalized. Absolutely. It wasn't like completely reactionary in that sense. It,
Shubhranshu: there's no reactionary in starting.
They, they were, as you said, do they know about Mao? No. Still they don't know the, who is the biggest guy, you know, government of, uh, security forces thereafter. Yeah. This
Manisha: mythical guy who's, I
Shubhranshu: spent a week with him.
Manisha: You have?
Shubhranshu: And, uh, because he Mao
Manisha: no one knows. Who he is, where he goes, how he moves.
Shubhranshu: So that is a created, uh, uh, you know, image.
He's a normal guy, you know, uh, in a class two fail. So I started asking him, you know, uh, uh, you're talking about China, you're talking about Russia. Have you been there? A why are you making fun of me? I've not seen my, uh, district headquarter. He said, no. He's a young, you know, simple guy. It's not that much young now.
It doesn't look like what, uh, photographs, um, [00:39:00] police is putting out. Mm. But he's definitely not what, uh, all his spin doctors are making out about him. That he's the mastermind Masterminds are, uh, people like you and me. Masterminds are, uh, Bengalis and telegu and who design. And they put this hid ma character in the front.
Um, why did Hilma join? And I ask him, okay, churro, no. Leave all these China and Russia. Please tell me why did you join? And you know what he says? No revolution and no Mao. He said, one day a forest guard came to my house and slapped my elder brother. I said, that is it. I want to change this. This forest is mine and nobody can take this forest from us.
Abhinandan: In fact, even during the Punjab movement, so many young people who did not see themselves as [00:40:00] separate from India, just the reason that they actually, even if they didn't join the movement, they would take every opportunity they could to, you know, hit out at cops violently, was because of how badly they had seen their family members treated by cops.
It was not ideological. Yes. It was just that and that that is something I think at a very fundamental level. I think culturally, our security forces and those who have power don't seem to understand that if you humiliate someone, they don't have to be ideologically opposed to you. Yes. It's just so many people's politics is influenced by, because they were bloody.
Uh, you know, treated badly by one, uh, minister because they were made to stand outside his house. They've suddenly become, you know, ideologically inclined one way or the other. Yeah, that's, yeah.
Shardool: Personal hearts creates worse enemies. Like, if you humiliate or hurt someone personally, they will hold it against you because they'll remember it, it, it's their own.
Abhinandan: But [00:41:00] how has he ma, I mean, considering he's not very, you know, well read or well traveled or well educated, how has he managed to, you know, at some level there's some organizational skills required to run an operation of the scale, and if he is seen as the head of that. I mean, is he instinctively really good at managing people?
What, what is it that,
Shubhranshu: see, I've spent only a week with him, but what that's, I think is, I think is we are,
Abhinandan: we are in an Asia media where people write a profile of people after spending two minutes with them. So just don't worry about a week is week is enough to write a book.
Jayashree: People spend an hour reading tweets and be like, yeah, I'm gonna write the
Shubhranshu: Maoist spin.
Doctors have created this image of mah is my feeling. Of course, you know, 99% of your foot soldiers are tribals and they speak only Gandhi, you know, and he's a Gandhi speaker. Barely. He could speak, you know, uh, few, few lines of Hindi. So he could be a good organizer in his language with [00:42:00] his own people. But, uh, but the Brahmins, the.
Or which we call managers or leaders are definitely not the tribals are, are these telegu. So I looked at their say like Battalion has many companies, you know, so who is in this company? Every company I'm talking about that trip, no. Had a telegu at the top who is the brain and all the fighters are tribals.
Manisha: So, so I think it's a very interesting point you've made several times now that the tribals are just foot soldiers and the guys who are so-called, who are planning everything are outsiders. People
Shubhranshu: like you and me.
Manisha: So there would be a sense among, among tribals, which is why perhaps that tribals feel, these guys aren't really, it's not in our benefit, they're not us, and we are ultimately just being used.
I mean, I guess so that feeling
Shubhranshu: came, that feeling came much later. So as I said, 99% are going tribals, 50% [00:43:00] are girls, 40 to 50% in leadership, zero. No tribal, no women. It's all people from outside now. So what kind of, uh, new democratic revolution are we talking about mm-hmm. In 40 years? You know, 1980, they, I'm talking about only Tigar.
Uh, so Maoist have created, uh, you know, an army of killers know. Mm. Uh, if you look at, uh, look at official figures, this many number of policemen got killed. This many number of, uh, uh, um, Mao got killed. The number of. People killed in middle. Nobody talks about them. That is double then this number. They've been killing in ones and twos, all these.
And they're not
Abhinandan: combatants on either side.
Shubhranshu: No. Simply on suspicion.
Manisha: Suspicion of being informers. Yeah. Like the public court senator talking about
Shubhranshu: Maoist, uh, sympathizer state is killing and Maoist are killing. So in last three, [00:44:00] four weeks, Maoist have announced a ceasefire, unilateral ceasefire. Even after that, I think they have killed half a dozen people.
Yeah.
Manisha: Just on suspicion of aiding the state. Yes.
Shubhranshu: And this goes on,
Manisha: one thing I wanted to make a note of, and I don't know if you have any um, uh, opinion on that, but April beginning, I read in the papers, there was a very interesting statement by the home minister where it was very conciliatory. You know, he says, brothers and sisters, I'm quoting from it.
No one wants to kill anyone. No matter what you've done, come to the mainstream government of Indian will completely protect you. You are our own and no one is happy when an al is killed. So those, you know, it seemed for a government that has made urban al like this big thing and it's the biggest thing.
Yeah, the outreach is, the outreach was pretty interesting. And then from April to now, there seems to be a complete shutdown. The, we don't wanna talk, we just wanna kill and come out. What changed between. April and no say like this one month. So like day,
Shubhranshu: uh, before coming here, I read a statement [00:45:00] from, uh, chief Minister of Tigar and he said, we don't want to talk to these hy buddies.
No. Ah,
Abhinandan: we
Shubhranshu: want to talk to this. 99% is what he means to say. See, Abbe I was talking about in his last statement doesn't say very clearly, but he's hinting. See, uh,
Abhinandan: person, the number two who goes by the, see, he
Shubhranshu: hints there that, uh, oh, give us one month of, uh, uh, cease fire. We need to discuss, we are a Democratic party to discuss surrender is what we are talking. So what we need today, see this, there are thousand people now. They may be misguided, but they are our brothers and sisters, which Amit, uh, you know, very kindly said.
So, uh, it's very difficult to compare, uh, uh, Maoist party, which is a political party with Koit and the other end of Mad [00:46:00] de Pradesh. Ti was part of mad the Prh, you knows, you know, engineered or helped the surrender of the cos. That's what is needed here. Somehow this. Thousand people stuck there somehow.
You know, a mass surrender needs to be negotiated. So,
Abhinandan: uh, we ha I know we have you only for 10 minutes. You've very kindly made the time and you have to get back, uh, in 10 minutes. So if anyone has any questions, please feel free to ask. I mean, you are clearly an expert in this zone. Um, and at the risk of, you know, burdening you with being an expert in any conflict zone, I'd mentioned this in a hafta a few weeks ago.
'cause I happened to be speaking to some, uh, retired very senior gentleman from the forces who had said that there is such a reluctance of the government to recruit locally, Kashmiri. Uh, and he said when I, when he was there, they had recruited [00:47:00] and they had been able to quell a lot of the discontent because.
We recruited locally and these guys know those youngsters, you know, the guys were pelting stones. He was like, dude, it's your buddies. Just go control them. Uh, so while there would be little, you know, sparks of outrage and violence, they would, it was very difficult to completely radicalize them. So, because I put their own, you know, community to tackle them, uh, and that has completely been stopped by this government.
But you're saying there, it has worked very well. So I'm curious if it's working so well there, why have they discontinued local recruitment? Cus kmi, would you reckon it's because of religion?
Shubhranshu: I don't know. They borrowed like this. SPO? No. When I used to go to KA as a B, BC person, the same guy left and uh, uh, generals came and said, see, like Ti girl, why was TI Girl [00:48:00] created?
Ti Girl was created because, you know, they need to do mining. Uh, and small states are manageable. Uh. They put general set there as governor. Uh, 1, 2, 3. If you look at governors all were these military people. So, uh, they brought this SPO strategy from Kashmir. Of course, the SPO strategy was used in 1948 also when the first, uh, we didn't call it Maoist at that time in telangana happened.
So these are old strategies, um, of recruiting SPOs and recruiting locals. And they have been, uh, using it very successfully here. I, I don't know much about, uh, kashee not been following this for, you know, more than 20 years now, but, uh, it was very distressing. Uh, all these people who surrendered. Yeah, they could have been, and there is a court order for it.
They could have been taken as a teacher, you know, as a health worker. But, uh, you come [00:49:00] from one combat and you push them to another side, you know, uh, they don't like it. They have been successful. They have been very useful, but state has used them. They didn't like it. They didn't want to, you know, fight their, so here what is happening is the tribals killing tribals.
Now if it is a Mao getting killed, or it is a state getting killed, both that it is only tribals, uh, the tribals are killing tribals. That what was happening in Salva is still happening. So no ji, no Raji getting killed. No ra Reddi is getting killed. It's only the awa, which should stop. Uh, Joshua, you had a question.
Very
Jayashree: interesting. Yeah, I just wanna ask, I mean, what do you see, um, so with RA's death, I assume now, you know, very demoralized, sort of in flux. So what do you see as the sort of immediate future for the movement as a whole? Like, will it regroup very quickly? Will, is it, or do you think the center, this is when the central [00:50:00] government needs to take certain decisive steps?
And if so, like what would those steps be?
Shubhranshu, Manisha, Shardool: I think March likely. 'cause you said that
Jayashree: you didn't think initially that they would meet that target of March, 2026, but now you're saying it looks a little more likely. So.
Shubhranshu: I, I won't waste my time on future of ma party. That is over what I would say two things.
One is, which I was talking about saving these 500 to thousand lives who are still in the ma party. Uh, uh, how do we save these lives? Do we have a group of people who can, you know, engineer this surrender? And the second days, which is even more important, is Buster. Buster is bigger than Caroline size.
Amar, you know, which is the headquarter of Mave is bigger than, say, Goa in size. This is a transfer of power movement. Half of Buster was controlled by Maoists, entire [00:51:00] Amar. It was a no-go area. This was late two thousands.
Abhinandan: Yeah.
Shubhranshu: Uh. From now, from 80 to now till now. Okay. Now, uh, state will be going, so what will be our development policy?
Mm. That will determine whether Hi will be dead. If there is, you know, no ceasefire and no, uh, peace talks today or tomorrow. But the issues he's raising is not, they will not go away
Abhinandan: overnight. So, so
Shubhranshu: is state addressing them? That is a bigger issue. You know, mining has already started in Abu Ma, you know, like Forest Strikes Act, which Edma was talking about when I was talking to him.
I said, you know what? You're talking, there is a law, you know, there is a law called Forest Rights Act.
These are all in papers. That's true for so many laws in India. Yeah. But so will it be delivered
Raman: after? So I mean, the point that he has raised about [00:52:00] forest rights, I can also say, I mean this. Movement. The entire thing was very complex. I mean, he has given, uh, you know, very nicely the, this tribal killing.
Tribal is absolutely right. But when I was reporting, I remember 2004, 2005 is the time when the mining increases. Huh? It peaked. And then 2005, the government also came up with the, to, I mean, as, as, uh, recruited tribals as SPOs trained them, and they started attacking. And I remember in 2007, uh, uh, 2007, there was Dgps meeting, uh, DGPS of all the states had come to Delhi and there was a meeting of them.
And, uh, the home minister, whoever was, I forgot maybe. So, uh, so he, uh, at that time, in that year, 2007. Uh, there's the [00:53:00] killings in, uh, you know, chat's girl. They were, uh, they had, they were more than the killings in Kashmir in 2007. So this is a time when the violence had peaked. Ha The violence had peaked and since then they.
I mean, they started was of course, mm-hmm. Uh, was, uh, you know, the main, uh, way to counter them, counter the moist. Gotcha. But then it went wrong. I mean, they, they lost the local support, moist. I think they lost the local support. And that is how the,
Abhinandan: and I'm sure there's, there's a fatigue element as well, right?
Yeah. So, I mean, course I cannot discount them. There is a fatigue element. Absolutely. And technology, and being aware of what's happening, different parts of the world, how things are moving forward, the inevitability of a certain kind of. You know, a dominance of the conventional development narrative as opposed to, you know, the sustainable mobile phone.
Mobile phone has changed
Shubhranshu: everything. Maoism versus modernism. And now what [00:54:00] state want is M-O-M-O-U, you know, what you were talking Memorandum of understanding a different kind of maoism of these mining companies. So there are lots of, but, but, uh, mobile phone has played a major, major role like in Andra.
Now, people still love Maoists. Uh, when you go and talk to them, they give them land. But after land you need what? Uh, you need electricity and state gave that. Here also, state was, uh, you know, they divided buster into seven districts. There's mobile phone you can call the officer. So state has started responding and this, this fatigue.
Shubhranshu, Manisha, Shardool: So
Shubhranshu: information. Was given by people. So it was not Greyhound, which finished Maoist. In Andra in the same way, local support. Without that, it's just not possible. So the people has moved to state 15 onwards. Salva Judum has shifted people right to Maoist. Mm-hmm. [00:55:00] So those are the chunks. 80 to 90. Maoist came.
No people, 90 people started joining thanks to police atrocities. Salva took it to peak 15 onwards. They said, you know, this is not, this violence is not, but where were
Raman: they getting their weapons and their economic support? Where was that? Did you have any idea how these moist were getting, or was it
Abhinandan: just through robberies?
Shubhranshu: I mean, I have never seen any, like you saw in Punjab or Northeast or Kmi, that level of support. They have anything coming from outside. I've never seen China,
Manisha: which is
Shubhranshu: why I have never seen, and MHA also never said that they're getting anything from outside. I saw some of the
Raman: IB reports, which was saying that the Pakistan or the Stanis, they are supporting, they're sending the weapons.
In fact, they had also got, uh, you know, drones.
Abhinandan: Well, so, but IB is not the most credible IB [00:56:00] also. No,
Raman: I read, of course not. Credible. I said, yeah, I read a couple of the reports. So I, I still am in,
Manisha: but one thing I not
Raman: giving any credences to it, not giving any credences to those reports. The create, so that's
Shubhranshu: 47, which we have seen in say like, uh, yeah, nga, correct.
And Northeast, I've never seen any Yeah. Whatever I've seen is they've taken from, they've killed so many policemen. Yes. Basically they've robbed, they've robbed
Abhinandan: Val and Chalky, et cetera. That whole
Shubhranshu: Nigar armory de looted. Yes. They looted
Abhinandan: armories. So, and, and like you said, you know, that pity packed, what they call pity packed equipment has not been recovered from them ever.
So it, it, it couldn't be pity pack. But thank you so much. I know you've taken a lot of your time. I know you have, uh, to get home to deal with the medical, uh, situation in the family, but we really appreciate the time to come all the way here, uh, for an hour to just. Help us understand this complex problem.
Uh, but before we say goodbye, any recommendation that you think could enrich [00:57:00] the lives of our listeners and viewers.
Shubhranshu: So I'm reading a book, uh, these days. I was talking about Abu Ma. So Abu Ma is, uh, 4,000 square kilometer inside, um, Buster, and it is partly in Oli. And there were two people, um, one anthropologist called Edward, JI think was his name.
And, uh, the book I'm reading is by his friend called Shani. And, um, Abu Mar So means which you don't understand, a and ma means, uh. A flat plateau? No. So why should an area be Abu? You know, we live in the 21st century, but this is the only area in the country which is not surveyed yet. It was not surveyed by British and then by mainstream, uh, know, free India.
And then 40 years it's mouse there. [00:58:00] So, uh, he, uh, so the, the name of the book is Sha Al. Uh, so, so, so, so like Abu Ma, uh, when I was talking to some Gandhi, uh uh. Teachers and they said, this is not a Hindi word. I said, what? So AJ means Sal and ma means jungle. So Sal Jungle, it's just like Sal Bunny or so, so we don't even understand these places.
So this places are getting their independence and uh, democracy will go there, development will go there, the roads will go, electricity will go, mobile, phone will go. And there'll
Abhinandan: be friction inevitably when that happens.
Shubhranshu: So, so mining will go. So, uh, what I feel is. This is a very good time, um, to, to take more interest in these places.
We [00:59:00] call them red areas. So there were three types of areas in buster, red, yellow, and green. Red means where complete mouse control, it was around 15,000 square kilometers out of 39,000. Uh, yellow where state and mouse both are going green, where status these red areas are going to be. You know, uh, I talked about transfer of power, what kind of development there.
Mm-hmm. And, you know, that is a huge challenge for, uh, a country like ours that, you know, these are forest economies or these are sustainable economies now, uh, uh, so good things. Okay? They grow probably the. Purest form of organic food. Hmm. Or will we supply DDT and Fertilizer to finish them in the name of, you know, increasing their productivity.
Political, I think political representation,
Manisha: political representation. What participation these thousands of Mao Tribals who joined the ranks of [01:00:00] Mao, who you are saying even the home ministers outreach to, how can we involve them in the political process of, you know, to give democracy to their hands?
We've done it successfully in the Northeast where Borderland militants have joined the BJP.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Manisha: So can they have a say in their own, it's
Shubhranshu: come this far? Can we need
Manisha: to have them in politics? Can we
Abhinandan: take
Shubhranshu: it to Absolutely. Maoist have tried. Uh, so there is a group of Maoists, uh, uh, say like in Nepal. Uh, they did this, uh, they call it United Front.
The MA have many strategies, so they put up a Maoist, uh, united front, front, uh, called Munch. This was three, four years ago. Uh, and that kind of strategy brought peace in Nepal, but ne state never, uh, responded to that strategy. And these are young boys and girls. What we're just talking about Milia. So, uh, very articulate.
Uh, it is product of post Corona. So when Corona happened, [01:01:00] uh, thousands of boys and girls and, uh, from these ashram, shaah, these, uh, hostels where they were studying because of Salva, many schools got closed. So these residential school, they went home for two years and they got, you know, a recruited, uh, by ma and, and these are the boys and girls, which should be coming to the mainstream politics.
Yeah. They have to be. And we've done that. They're now in band. Yeah. But, uh, that's our task that, uh, what is the future of Buster? You know, will it be. After MAOIs, will it be Mized? Mm-hmm.
Abhinandan: Or will there be some, or will there be
Shubhranshu: democracy or will their voices be heard? Well, if you've
Abhinandan: come this far, you know, I, I hope it is taken to its logical equilibrium, which is a peaceful and uh, fair equilibrium.
'cause that's the only kind that's sustainable. Uh, but thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate your time, uh, and have a great week and I hope all goes well at home.
Shubhranshu: Thank you for having me. My pleasure. [01:02:00]
Abhinandan: Yeah, Shadu, uh, you always come very prepped with notes, et cetera, which always impresses me.
Manisha: Yes. And he's furiously scribbling as we talk.
Abhinandan: Yes. So I, that he could be doing like I used to do in economics class.
Shardool: Funny enough, I I I have to, I nod. I have to, I have to pretend. Yeah. I have to say something about economic class further in the episode. Uh, but I was scribbling because like, sadly, and you can sadly, I, I'm very familiar with violence, but not in ska.
Like I have had a life full of violence. So I understand that equation on and how it Yes. How psychologically it plays out and how it plays out in different levels.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Shardool: Like top tier violence will be different from the mid-tier person's violence, and the person who are they, while doing violence against will do further violence.
There's a cycle of violence is like this. And what, when sub was talking like one quote, which is like, I, I love speaking in quotes, but not speaking, at least collecting them a old [01:03:00] quote by Earnest Hemingway. And I think that is true for this cycle of violence that, um, there is no hunting, like hunting of a man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care about anything else.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Shardool: This is so true for this situation because I understand India Pakistan conflict and it's very easy and like I feel familiar in equating the do's and don'ts in this. This is very complex because this is, you know, handling of states enemy within the country from among your people. And they took up palms because of real or perceived injustices, but for them they were real.
Abhinandan: Right? And, and, and that's true for so many of the, you know, conflicts in the state. And, but I just had one question, Steve. I know, you know, I, he, you know, our guest wasn't here long enough, Shaban. 'cause he had to, to, but I wanna throw this question out there. Um, if anyone has a considered view on [01:04:00] this. Since he said a lot of the recruits are locally, a lot of them are locally, you know, local recruits.
I mean, I'm just trying to figure out what is the difference in that in Salva. So, Sal
Raman: is, was, uh, orchestrated by the. Uh, state.
Shubhranshu, Manisha, Shardool: State,
Raman: it wasn't the pupil movement they, or orchestrated as a pupil movement against moist. So they, they trained some. Okay, okay.
Abhinandan: So they were extra judicial. Ah, kind of. Okay. These guys have been formally recruited.
Shardool: I see.
Abhinandan: They incentivized. And
Jayashree: SALVA was also trained by the state, it like militia. They trained and
Shardool: incentivized local people to commit violence against their own. Oh, this is institutional kind of
Shubhranshu, Manisha, Shardool: recruitment? Yes. Okay.
Shardool: And this is understood, disgruntled people who are seeking or helping the state against situation, which is, which has become untenable as opposed to here
Abhinandan: guns now go.
Yes. Okay, got it. Understood.
Raman: They, they were made SPOs special police officers. Right. They were [01:05:00] given training also.
Abhinandan: Right. So they fell into the gray of official unofficial, yes. So
Raman: CRPF cuff, I mean, they used to be the front of the CRPF. Understood. So CRPF will go later, first day and they started killing their own people also.
Understood.
Shardool: Yeah, because personal judges, so what I was saying was now. In a situation like this, which I maybe in my head that made sense to how to, how to, uh, how to I identify this conflict in the previous way possible. And I wrote it down that this requires a very different and delicate strategy. Like you said, like now, if.
Not, not if like there are official figures. Like when UPA went on, when UPA put out the figures, there were about a hundred, officially 126 districts, which were considered red like mao. Now there are only 38.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Shardool: According to us. So it has shrunk significantly. And also like, I may not know the conflict and I like struggle to understand which side you fall on.
But if you look at the behavior of the people participating in the conflict, like no party [01:06:00] which is winning in an armed conflict will seek active negotiation. Mm-hmm. So that should tell you. That Maoists are on a back foot and they want people to come to the table so people stop dying.
Abhinandan: But I think MO mobile access and just access to what's happening in the world makes a big difference to any conflict.
Actually. It works both ways. It can also work in recruiting people, you know, like in the case of seeing the violence in Gaza, et cetera. Yes. And can also help in decentivize, disincentivize. It can work both
Shardool: ways. Uh, but two small points, and then everybody speaks to one which to branch also identified. And you did that.
At some point, at some level, progress becomes unstoppable.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Shardool: The, the, the, the charm for communist armed revolution, the Soviet USSR is over. It has been over for a while. So that charm from the popular culture has gone. The other part is the, the, the state and how it's cleaving the leadership and the people like Lan who [01:07:00] identified so beautifully that the foot soldier are also feeling the brunt of the, the violence.
And it has been going on for too long and they see children and because of mobile phone, they see other people moving ahead.
Abhinandan: Right. That makes a big difference. But, you know, on this, um, and if anybody has anything else, please come in and then we can move on to the emails. And, uh,
Raman: no, I subscriber
Abhinandan: feedback, but this whole, uh, at a bigger picture, the, you know, communist versus the capitalist Cold War and all that, I'm, I'm wondering if someone's written a piece on it or scrutinized it.
I don't think it's a coincidence that the two nations that were the strongest and pushing their own political ideology were both self-sufficient on energy and oil. Yeah. Uh, because I, I mean, I really think this entire bullshit, especially when people, I see their bios. Communist or [01:08:00] capitalist. I'm like, dude, you know, you, I mean, I, it's like when someone says, has an Anne Rand quote as their life mission, you know, I'm like, dude, you are.
Just grow up a little bit.
Jayashree: See, when someone calls themselves a communist, they usually mean they're a socialist,
Abhinandan: is what I feel. I mean, I, but it's, I, when someone calls themselves a capitalists, I'm wondering what they mean. But I'm just saying, had America not had the largest reserves of oil and Russia not had the fourth or fifth largest reserves of oil in the world.
Mm-hmm. How would they have funded their, uh, political ideology? They would both have been bankrupt. You know what I'm saying? It's just, it's, it's not a coincidence that any country that has said that we will, you know, Saudi Arabia take all away from them, or all the time when, uh, Gaddafi, you know, stood up to the us, take all away from him, take all away from Venezuela.
Anyone who has stood up to any political ideology has done so on the back of. A, a naturally occurring mineral that they have now, apparently the democratic role of Congo has apparently the largest, [01:09:00] what, what rare earth metal do they have? Which is required for all EVs now, you know, tomorrow if they get politically organized, they can hold the world ransom.
We will float our own ideology. It can be ideology, but that's,
Jayashree: but that's the nature of, I mean, power or pushing back against power, right? You, you have a bargaining chip and that gives you a position from which you can argue otherwise you have nothing. So it's the only way you can be countries
Abhinandan: or you have something more solid like internet during Mahara, then you can say, okay, you, you know, we can, I can fly.
Like, so you say no
Raman: if you, if you see the way development has happened, uh, in our country and say, development is our, uh, ideology. So I very. I, I can see that, I can foresee that corporatization of the forest area, which is going to open up, you know, is, uh, is going to happen because these are, there are, the development in our country had that hedonistic, uh, you know, [01:10:00] tendency.
I mean, if you see, uh, I have done stories on mining in Goa when the China, China was going to come up. Uh, you know, with, they were hosting, uh, Olympics. They needed a no. So roa, so I saw the politician digging his own agriculture field to get that a no and making 50 caries out of that before, uh, you know, uh, government takes state, realized the government took note of it, and he was FI was filed.
And, uh, he was put in the, I'm sure he must be out by now. Right? So, so, so I think this is at individual level and at state level and at, at, uh, at the central government level. See, the way the mining rights have been given to the entire corporate world, you know, in these jungles, Goa is an example. Goa. If, if anybody wants to do, see the, you know how the mining minings, goa, I'm talking of the, you know, that forest, [01:11:00] which runs from mata to Goa, that area is very well known.
So, so if you, so I think that is, if you just go by that and if development is an a ideology, I think we are going to see the corporatization of this version. Right. I think
Manisha: political representation is key. And to compare with Kashmir, one of the big issues with Kashmir, apart from a foreign actor playing, is that the people of Kashmir have never seen their politicians as people speaking for them.
There's always this accusation that Muftis and Abdullah's have to suffer that while we suffered, you are Delhi's puppets or you have this life there and you are not in sync with what we are going through. And it's sad because for them it's, you know, they say that we've been fighting the Indian states battle, which is what makes us so unpopular among our own people.
Hmm. But I think one big issue with Kashmir is also that if they had a leadership where people felt that they genuinely represent us and they stand with us, something that they tried with Rashid, the engineer. Mm-hmm. But there's such a [01:12:00] cloud around who propped him up. But. Similarly, if you look at, again, tribal state, they have a jja, which there's trust in a party that can fight for us, can protect us, could organize
Abhinandan: themselves as a political, you know, so I think unit
Manisha: political force and a sense in people.
That our aspirations will find a voice politically matters a lot. That makes sense. And then it could be anything. Then you can have tribals who join the BJP, the Congress. They can be communist capitalists, but there are own people giving us various political options.
Shardool: Right. So I
Manisha: think that would be key to what happens here.
I think BJ sort of political,
Shardool: sorry. Sorry, go on.
Manisha: No, I'm just saying that what sort of political representation they get will define the nature of what this mobs, I
Shardool: think the, the statements by home ministry sort of paving the way for BJP opening their arms to some people joining them and No, I think
Manisha: whatever with borderland, that's exactly what happened.
Yeah. Joined the BJP
Shardool: and don't forget, has been working for a long time. It was a very,
Raman: no. Whatever. Whatever the [01:13:00] politics is, whatever the presentation is, I don't think it'll stand in the way of corporatization. Yeah, of course. It just cannot,
Abhinandan: which, which also may not be a bad thing as long as there's a addressable mechanism.
Yeah. Which is, which can provide justice, which is. Judicial reforms is the only way. But, uh, last word to Jesse before you move on to the emails.
Jayashree: No, I would say that I think, um, to come back entirely to this operation, black Forest and so on. So I think right now this militaristic approach is working very well.
As you said, though, part of the Home Ministries is pursuing in, but also there needs to be another plan after this if we're thinking that they look towards politics or whatever. So for some kind of respite, but also the, at the heart of all this extremism and insurgency and so on is poverty, right? So if you have sort of targeted approaches to what they plan for Bastar and kind of development programs and rehabilitation programs, I think only then you see the next chapter of what is the end of.
Left wing extremism, especially in chat.
Abhinandan: Right. [01:14:00] Okay. We'll move on to the emails. I just like to remind our subscribers, we only entertain the emails of subscribers. So if you're not a subscriber, you can scan this QR code or click on the link in the show notes below and become a subscriber and power journalism that is not paid for by advertising, whether it's Sari government advertising or advertising of large corporations.
And then you can also give us feedback that we will discuss and we don't leave any of it out. And as you also may already know, if you're a long time, you're a listener of hta, we have got a new system where we, we curate four to six emails every week and then all the other emails that you know get collected and it go into 40, 50, 60, 70.
We will be addressing all of them together every four to five weeks in a separate recording of HTA feedback, which we are calling. Subscriber
Jayashree: take,
Abhinandan: subscriber take Hafta. Subscribers take, because this is a pun, hafta take and subscriber take so you [01:15:00] could get it. Uh oh God. So you,
Jayashree: we'll change the name Issa
Abhinandan: so you can make, uh, you can send your feedback to podcasts@newsrun.com at repeat podcasts@news.com.
I can click on the link in the show notes below, uh, this week's emails and like, like to do this in All India radio style.
Subscribers
Manisha: received from kk, you have to do a mutual fund. No.
Abhinandan: Okay. Mutual funds. You have to do. Okay, so the you receive
Manisha: letters from,
Abhinandan: so we have received letters from kk, Mia, and 7 47 and Kaia. Rahi, Anja Kumar Gora, Vikram Amin, Hara, and two anonymous letters, which you'll be reading out in the special letters of Hafta, but the others will be read out right now, which have been curated too
Manisha: Slow.
Mutual functional. Okay. Yes. [01:16:00] Pery Asia. I think we need to. We read a lot of letters by him.
Abhinandan: Yeah. Perry, you are writing a lot of emails, which we appreciate.
Manisha: Thank you. Yeah. But maybe we're being But you're getting
Abhinandan: undue representation. Yeah. Yes. Too much. He's there in every awful tism.
Manisha: Two to three letters we are reading and, okay.
Anyway, he says, respected and I think respected about us. But anyway, having experienced unreliable misinformation everywhere, I recommend independent journalists for providing accurate verified information. Now that there's ceasefire in place, we must start asking uncomfortable questions like how the attacks are happening in the first place.
Was it a security failure? And who's responsible? Despite being a wish guru, it seems Trump does not care much for India's concerns. I am afraid operations Hindu does not stop independent journalists from asking questions to the government. Don't be afraid. I mean, that is a good thing. It should not. Also, please discuss and condemn in strongest term the Depro deplorable proclamations by MP Minister Against Colonel Rishi.
Courage is contagious, but also very short in supply and recommendations is the four part documentary by DW Hitler's Reich, diaries of supporters, [01:17:00] opponents, and Victims. Okay. Wow. Should watch. That sounds interesting. Thank you,
Abhinandan: Perry.
Manisha: Peter Kat. Recording. Says in an earlier hta, Shaul said that during the UPA years, India lacked strategic depth, which is why Manmohan Singh was criticized while the Modi government is now doing a better job.
I disagree. What did the, the around Bala court really achieve? Five years later, we are back to square one with no tangible gains. Man. Mohans restraint, on the other hand, rallied global support diplomatically isolated Pakistan and helped maintain relative calm until mohi and reignited tensions in Kashmir.
Abhinandan: Do you have anything? Yes.
Shardool: Uh, so Peter, you have all the right to disagree and I don't disagree with that, but just from the top of my head, if you remember 2006 statement by man musing and then 2000, I think nine statement by defense, no external minister, defense minister, I'm not sure Sm Krishna with uh, uh, Pakistan, [01:18:00] uh, equivalent undermined India's policy that we will not negotiate.
While the terror is bred, trained and nurtured on Pakistan soil and Maning statement sort of conflated equal responsibility, there cannot be equal responsibility between victim and the perpetrator. Perpetrator, abuser. And if you remember the years, I'm sure Aand does, everybody does. Back then, bomb blast used to be a every year thing.
Like I remember when I, I had just moved out of gk of GK MHA and then Sir Nagar blast, some blast there. High
Manisha: coat me. 2014 there was a high coat when it
Shardool: has reduced significantly post in, in the past decade. So you cannot deny and look back then India. There were statements, I'm not sure, I'm not able to recall the book, but a defense personnel retired had said that we wanted to retaliate across the border at the terror centers, but the government restrained them.
So this restrained thing, like you can only stay [01:19:00] restrained for so long. If you re remain restrained long enough, then you are not restrained. You are unleashed. And that lesion in somebody's hand. And you do not need, I'm sorry to use the word, but like this global support Cho. Like who are these Cho, if you don't like it, then it's okay.
Yeah, but I, I mean, while
Abhinandan: I agree with some what you're saying, you have to be in a certain position to say we don't care about global support. Yes. We are not in that position. Of course. Yes. So China's in that position. So one thing,
Manisha: can we think, I was just thinking about this athlete that. 15 years ago, had we done something like this to Pakistan, like launched terror strikes without giving proof to the world.
Mm. Uh, without any investigation, would we have attracted more seja from everyone? Yes. I mean, today we don't Yes. Have that?
Abhinandan: No, I don't think so. I think, or
Manisha: is it a function of just different world leaders now doing whatever we want? Yeah. I
Abhinandan: think on the country, I think there are two or three, you know, factors that have changed dramatically.
Shubhranshu, Manisha, Shardool: Mm-hmm.
Abhinandan: Uh, one is the world is more inward looking right now, each country is looking more inward than [01:20:00] it is now. It is very shamelessly and transparently self-interest and not, you know, what is the right thing to do. The second thing is, I think had we done it close on the heels of bushes. You know, incursion into Afghanistan.
Yeah. Then you see when you time it, then you can say hello, you know, what are you doing? Like, for example, what Israel is doing right now that can actually get a lot of countries to, to under that shadow, do five other things. You see, because then you can say that if you cannot call them out, you can't call us out either.
Yeah. So I, I think that's so many things that I don't see,
Manisha: but I think it could also be a function, a little bit of our own diplomacy that we,
Raman: so No, no, I, I don't, uh, the way Shadu has presented it, uh, one Moning versus, uh, just a minute, when Mosen was his, uh, Modi, Modi, I do not think it, it should be explained this way.
Mm. I think our foreign policy is consistent. Mm. Even [01:21:00] man Moning time. I think they were the strategy that they adopted as the, uh, you know, subscriber is saying we were, he was also, his government was also able to isolate Pakistan. And it, it was more importantly, uh, you know, the government was able to raise, uh, you know, its, uh, voice at the global level.
So I, and I think it was con in Inconsist, and yes, right now we are more aggressive. But this is, again,
Abhinandan: this is purely for, you know, academic purposes. There, there is no way it is like, you know, did the stimulus work. You cannot create that situation again and did this.
Shardool: So, so I agree with Robin and ab, the, if you remember, I made the argument that Pakistan is less relevant to the world now.
Back then it was. So that also plays in, and one thing which, uh, Peter mentioned about Bala code. So Bala code did help us in identifying our problems. We found out that our, our missile, missile sort of range was less than Pakistan. Mm. Right. But the good thing, which [01:22:00] I do not like this government like that is, should be obvious for people who watch our programs.
But one thing this government has done is, you know, at least in this defense, they picked up their strategy and they changed it after they found out that we worked in, which is a for refreshing change.
Abhinandan: But just one point I wanna make is that every major conflict in India, of India has had. Either a particular person in the military or a particular battalion or a platoon, et cetera, et cetera, you know, whether it's from Abdul Hamid to Bikram Batan whose films have been made, AB was unfortunately captured, but you know, there was certain, you know, whether it's the book, something of this is the first time I have seen, and maybe some media commentator can write a piece on it, where the hero of the battle is muhi.
Whether it is through visual representations, [01:23:00] whether it's through posters, whether it's who is the king, the film that we made. Five years from now will not be about Vikram Batra or you know, any commander. It'll be about Mohi. There'll be no Sam Manekshaw. There'll be that I think is completely new and distasteful and quite vulgar.
Manisha: But the uh, but no euro in the sensex border was made on the battalion that was stationed there. The Punjab regimen.
Abhinandan: Even the short stories he read in school were not specific specific here.
Manisha: The Air Force. Fighter pilots or the squadron or the marshes. Hamid
Raman: used to be the hero.
Manisha: It's not at the forefront of
Abhinandan: but But this is tech, tech warfare.
No. Yeah, but irrespective that doesn't mean Modi is the king. Ah, of course Mo in a Iic SC book, there was one story in Abdul Hamid. Ah, there was one story on um, another battle. I forget the specific one that was in the China battle. This one platoon that had got stuck somewhere and they fought till the end shoes.
Yeah.
Raman: The two guys killed many Chinese.
Abhinandan: So there were, there were many. Then there was one stories of the tank battle of 71. I think we had two or three stories famously, Sam
Manisha: Manekshaw, who [01:24:00] was actually with a very strong prime minister. But we still talk about Sam Manekshaw.
Shardool: Yes, yes. Yeah.
Manisha: Cool. Anyway, uh, we says, uh, dear Nl team, thank you for your wonderful work.
I love Manisha. But seeing her arguing about du not being a symbol of patriarchy was disappointing. The symbols may be different, but each culture has practices which reinforce patriarchy, normalizing such symbols as part of cultures dangerous. The measure of it is, of something is simple, of patriarchy, is not quite simple.
Mm-hmm. Does it apply to both men and women equally? Are women subjected to social judgment or for, for not following it? If you observe closely, the institution of marriage itself doesn't pass these tests. It's an unequal relationship where you stay, who owns majority of assets, how inheritance is distributed, et cetera.
And I don't need to tell you the social judgment that unmarried women have to face. The progress that has happened is because of scientific developments in our knowledge and the women's movements, which fought against all such practices. Another one in, so I can read all of them together, but Sura says, high NL team, [01:25:00] I'm 96 born, so I believe that qualifies me as Gen Z.
Shardool: No. Millennial.
Manisha: 96 is not millennial. It's,
Abhinandan: yeah, 96 would be millennial. Really? Gen Z would be 2000 and beyond post 2000. Okay.
Jayashree: Millennial. Millennial is until 96. Okay, so it's 81
Manisha: 2. So you're on the border. I think Uras, patriarchal as are manal, suru, tourings, ndi, and white. When society makes decisions for what is appropriate for people to wear, depending on their marital status, without a parity between the man and the woman, it's patriarchal.
Hindu society denied privileges to women who were not married, allowed them to marry only once. Remember, sathi and these things are very obvious outward markers. Girls are conditioned to want to wear these things watching their mothers, but they can also do so if they marry and lose the right again if their husbands die before them.
So lu is not like makeup or jewelry. I also think marriage is patriarchal in Indian society. Women's social position and acceptance changes depending on whether they marry, whether they can have children, whether they have sons, how many sons they [01:26:00] have. Men are not judged as much. Keep up the amazing work.
One more. So I'll finish all that. Who dismissed patriotism as a primitive virtue? I wonder if the prefix patri is the problem. No. He and ram were frivolously. Cribbing about URA being a symbol of patriarchy Is patis. I like how she's narrowed it to Patri Is Pat If patriotism is primitive because it has Adi, ADI with patriarchy.
Abhinandan: Sorry, what is Adi? What does that mean? The, the prefix? I don't Okay. Okay. The prefix.
Manisha: Um, strange to see lefties having problems. Fatherly references
Shardool: with fatherly references, having
Manisha: problems with fatherly. Why it's not strange. Does Cism
Shardool: sound better?
Manisha: Does matri autism sound any better? It's it simple to equate harmless customs to ghettoization symbols of oppression.
On a side note, who are a natural cripple? SA surnames? Vestiges of [01:27:00] patriarchy. Why aren't they gone? Yes, of course they have
Jayashree: his teachers of patriarchy.
Manisha: Why aren't they gone? If being primitive is a problem, a bacterium, supposedly primitive is more advanced than humans, and bacteria will outlive all life forms.
I seriously, I'll jump in
Jayashree: here because why aren't they gone? Because we are not allowed to let go of them because of patriarchy. I mean, you think, I do not want to have to apply for a passport and put my father's name. I do not want to, if I'm participating in a court case, have to give my father's name. I do not want to constantly give my father's name if I'm applying for a visa or for any sort of document that I, as an almost 40-year-old woman should be able to do without saying, well, here is my father.
Here is my husband. Therefore I'm allowed to do what I want to do. But it is because of patriarchy that could be, are forced to. So
Manisha: I feel so as more seriously cran who has patriots and partisans where he explains what he means by patri autism, which is among many a useful one. As a general point, I wanna convey something that I wish to share.
Yeah. So
Abhinandan: that point, I general point you Canta, what you've said is that yes, we read, while we only read out one 50 words, [01:28:00] but we've read the emails in total so that we do. But on this point, two things, since you have specifically called out Raman and me on one note, I think you yourself have acknowledged your, it's a joke.
It's a joke. So yeah. It's got But like, uh, Jeff, she said yes. Those are all vestiges of patriarchy. Yes. Um, and in fact, I think any surname is a vestige of some power dynamic. Um, if I would have taken my mother's name and called myself, I've been than a year, it would be a establishment of. Some al you know, uh, showing off.
In fact, also, you still wouldn't be taking
Jayashree: your mother's name. You'd be taking like your mother's father's name. Exactly. So unless if you call your mother, if you call yourself like, so that's complicated.
Abhinandan: So
Jayashree: yeah,
Abhinandan: I, I know certain people who've dropped their name altogether, which I osh while I disagree with him on many things.
My former colleagues from, uh, who's Raj, he is osh. And even when I met him for the first time at Tak, I said, OSH. He said, [01:29:00] why? She thought she's not enough. I said, okay, it's enough. So he just dropped it. I dunno how he deals with her on distinct basis, or if I become, as, you know, famous as Prince or Madonna, like, then you, you just have one name, you're like, prince, you're Madonna.
You don't need a second name, you're Queen, whatever.
Raman: No, there's a huge problem. My friend's daughter, she went to UK to do PhD. Hmm. And, uh, she, her name, she did not take, uh, you know, her, uh, father's name. Hmm. And this at the airport, they kept. Asking Luki, what is your surname? What is your last name? What is your Now she faced lots of problem.
Manisha: So people do face, so Sikhs, in fact, the core and the seeing introduction for women and men was precisely to fight this
Abhinandan: your
Manisha: past identification from your last name. Right? So all men are seeing, all women are core.
Abhinandan: So,
Jayashree: but on also, there's that 17-year-old child who, um, she was the topper in the ICSA exams or whatever.
The results came out recently and she goes by her first name 'cause she wanted to drop the surname because she said it's patriarchal and religious, [01:30:00] whatever, and I just wanna go by my first name. So a lot of like BB, C times of India, everyone did stories on her saying This girl is a topper. She got a hundred percent, she the number of rape threats and death threats that that child got.
And she's 17 years old because they're like, oh my God, she thinks she's too good for her father's name because, and this again, isn't, it is patriarchy saying, oh, why don't you drop the name? People who do drop the name have multitudes of issues and it's logistical, it's abusive
Abhinandan: it and there's vanity also.
Yeah. You know, honestly, it's. I mean, I didn't choose to be called RI or you know, Rams didn't choose to be called. But now that, that is a part of your identity. If I had kids, yeah, this is my name now, and if, if I had kids, one of my kids became a football player. And he was playing. I like his name to read Sacred 'cause if he scores a goal and he does this, it's a sacred vanity comes in there.
Yeah. It's, it's purely God played cricket. No, he played cricket. I
Shardool: changed my name, so tell you. Right. So, so two things I wanna say. One, one [01:31:00] letter, right? I forgot your name. Unmarried men also gets flack. Unbelievable flak in India. So please that is, I think democratic
Abhinandan: two. Unbelievable flack. I'm the only unmarried man here.
And you were married at some point.
Shardool: I am not anymore. Which is worse.
Abhinandan: So I, I don't
Jayashree: wanna say I, what, what a fight this has, this this. Never been man who has once been married.
Abhinandan: I don't think unmarried men. Have any sort of, um, social stigma? I've seen many of them. Dude, you know, people like Modi and me. We have, we have never faced,
Manisha: in fact, our leaders have only been unmarried, the popular ones.
Abhinandan: People like Ji, Modi, Raul, and me. Dude. Uh, if unmarried men are whining about being gonna be social stigma, then you are generally losers for other reasons. It has nothing with your not being married.
Shardool: So, so you are [01:32:00] these privileged, unmarried men, not including ab and then who also privileged except about the thing Manisha was talking about that are all our leaders have been like, this
Jayashree: has been married guys.
Why are we also getting that? But that doesn't count. That doesn't
Abhinandan: count.
Shardool: I mean, my point is they have been lecturing us ad nauseum for a long time about how to drum relationships. The girlfriend al, the second point I wanted to make was the last name thing, is that this last name, I, I read it somewhere in some articles.
It's coming up again. In the sort of, uh, viral cycle that India, before colonialism had less sort of emphasis on last names. It's the cannoli experience, which has included middle names and last names a lot, which like, I think Tosha also had that UK and Western Europe emphasizes on it more. Yeah. Right.
Yeah. Anyway,
Abhinandan: fine. So the rest of the emails will be collected and read in our email special. [01:33:00] Uh, let's get the recommendations for the week before we wind up. But
Manisha: on thisAnd the whole thing, I must say that I really, uh, researched its origins. Mm. And apparently it's Harpa Valley civilization is where they found figurines with first use of du which predates Hinduism.
Yes. Uh, my friends share the same shock as the letter writer. That how can you support it as not, I mean, I don't support it or not, but I don't find it. But I think two things. One is that, uh, on equality test, maybe it fails. You're right, because it comes from a time where men were making decisions on how women should look.
Yes. I don't think women came together and decided, okay, we'll wear a UL for our wedding, whatever. Probably a priest decided. So it's unequal. But on the oppression thing, I still think that there's just not enough proof today to say that women are being oppressed into wearing a sul. Uh, most women wear it out of choice or out of some sort of conservative sense.
You can at best call it conservative choice, I think. But it's as patriarchal to me as say maybe high yields are, I mean, I don't see, it's the same sort of burden that is put on women to [01:34:00] look a certain way. And it is, I would say it is still very different from burka, which is a negation of womanhood. UR is whatever it is, a aesthetic celebration of a married woman.
But I'd also say it's different from a hijab. Women across cultures, continents have worn scarves on their heads for various reasons, not just Islam. Certain segments of Islam, it's a bit, uh, you know, it's a bit strident in the sense that you can't have a strand of hair showing, but in North Africa, Islamic cultures have the scarf and the headgear, and it's not that stringent.
So even if there's a comparison to be made, I'd say hijab would be more. Comparable then to a, which is only comparable to a, I think,
Jayashree: yes. But you can't see, I mean, I completely push back at the idea that one is negation of woman womanhood and the other celebration of it. I mean, I think they're both serving the same purpose in different ways, but not that one is, no one is an aesthetic.
Manisha: It's still, when you read about it or how it, is, there still an aesthetic embellishment Yes. Reserved for it, I think's. I think we find it, [01:35:00] but as an
Jayashree: aesthetic embellishment, because it sounds, it's a very prettified way of looking at something, which to me is exactly the same in terms of the symbol that it represents.
But hiding your face is different
Manisha: from
Abhinandan: No, I just think it's what you're used to, for example. Yeah. You know, that tribe that makes its next longer. Yes. By doing that or the Maoris, I, I, it could, but to them it looks beautiful on that lip plate. So, you know, uh, hijab and just the ice can look beautiful. So I think that's just a question of what is normalized for you.
I don't think that has anything to do with. One is a celebration and the other is, you know, a, a negation or a, I think that that's too subjective. Like way too broad. It could be any like paja, you know, I think it really adds to the look of a foot. Uh, but to many people, you know, Western who have met, they've, they find it really strange to see, you know, this ankle it metal.
I was like, you know, but, but because Yeah. But hiding
Manisha: is different from embellishing is what I'm
Abhinandan: saying. Yes. [01:36:00]
Manisha: Which again, I say hijab is not the same. Hijab I think is a very cultural, kind of a practice across different cultures and centuries and continents.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Manisha: Specific to hiding a face is mine.
Abhinandan: So now the recommendations.
You wanna go first ge.
Jayashree: I have excellent recommendations.
Abhinandan: Oh, you're saying yourself self criminal. Yeah.
Jayashree: They're so good guys. So good. Yes. Pick number one. I was reading a lot on Giant who died this week and there were many like really sweet and inspiring obituaries, but I'm recommending one that I didn't red if of all tastes because it was just really deeply affectionate.
Um, it was by a man who was very close to him and he talks about the character of NACA who asked questions. He was very irreverent. He not only showed like technical competence, but also a lot of philosophical courage. And it's a very sweetly sort of told obituary. It's called, um, Jen naca, A Voice that Lit the Cosmos.
Um, my second recommendation is. So my Mahe Roth, who is [01:37:00] um, arrested in the BAK Corgan conspiracy case, he's currently lodged in, um, Taja Prison where he's conducted a survey. He spoke to 573 prisoners who live in yard three. He interviewed all of them and the sort of findings that he's gathered a very interesting, so on average they've spent 28 months in jail.
94% of them are under trials. More than half of them don't. Nearly half of them don't have lawyers and more than half won't produce in court on stipulated dates. And this is through personal conversations that he's had with every inmate that he's come across in this yard. So I think it's worth reading.
Hmm. Next is Gaia's deconstruction of the Mamu Abba Supreme Court hearing. Basically, he talks about what the Supreme Court didn't say, what you can understand based on oral observations and also what the law and precedent says before it. So he has said, we may very gently suggest that if Mamu Abba use his analogical mind to issue such an incredibly subtle dog whistle, that we need three police officers to tell us where the whistle was and who the [01:38:00] dogs were.
Then it is very clearly a really terrible dog whistle. So, no, but great piece. Please read it. And I have a fourth recommendation. Nice. Which is very short, but it's a really sweet piece in the Hindu. How to mark the centenary of the Madras Zoo In 1955, the Madras Corporation requested Moscow Zoo, send them a polar bear.
And that sad polar bear did arrive in Madras via Kabul. The logistics of it were very interesting. Did the Cub survive? No, it died very quickly. But it's just a very interesting sort of throwback piece on what happened when a polar bear arrived in Madras and you're oddly pleased by
Manisha: this Joshua. Yeah, oddly pleased a polar bear in Madras.
Jayashree: How can you be smiling? It's blew my mind. Like why? Who thought this is a good idea? So then not only did the polar bear come, and then it died, and then what did the Madras Corporation do? They immediately called up Moscow Zoo and they said, we want another one. How crazy. Yeah. And that the second one did come by the way, so.[01:39:00]
It. But yeah, those are my four recommendations. Makes no sense. All
Manisha: right. The, uh, go, um, gesture suggested Gotham Bat's breakdown of the Supreme Court order, but I think we should read the Facebook post that he put out the Ashoka professor. It is the most simply written, logical thing to have been out there.
I don't know what dog whistles they're looking for, and it's actually. It's just shocking to my mind, actually. So everyone should just read the original post to know what he was really saying. Uh, ma sub's pieces in the scroll. The last two ones have been very good on these operations that have been happening in Ger, uh, must read to understand what has been happening and to listen to local voices, which are very few and far between.
And, uh, mainstream media narrative. And, uh, an whole interview with Raj because we've spoken so much about these Maoism. It's a two hour long interview. It's with me, but I really think, and it's out the now one must. See it to understand what people like her presented for the tribals of these areas.[01:40:00]
Hopeful, uh, these people gave a, you know, way, uh, people like, I mean, you know, gave an option to tribals to take the constitutional route rather than go towards the gun. So they're really heroes and it's a shame that we've been calling them terrorists or knuckles or urban knuckles or whatever because had it not been for people like her who were telling people that you could go to court mm, you could fight justice, it could be a lot worse.
It would've been way worse. Yeah. So we should really thank people like her and do listen to everything she has to say about those areas where she's been living.
Abhinandan: Rama,
Raman: I had not been reading much, I mean, especially the books, uh, accepting some health books I was reading. But, uh, during my leave, uh, you know, at my, when I went away, I picked up the one old book by Oran Pok, uh, Istanbul.
So I've started reading that and, uh, fantastic book. I. [01:41:00] What expressions. So, so I'm just in the middle of it. So, uh, also making me, I also would like love to go to Istanbul after reading this
Manisha: Twitter. You can't now,
Shardool: and now we can't Istanbul.
Raman: So at some point I think situation will not stay. No, today we said
Manisha: we've told China and Turkey boat that please be considerate and we will also be considerate.
So I think things will become okay.
Shardool: Chinese. No, but
Manisha: tell me, have Pakistani stop going to e filter because we bought Rafael Jets. I mean also we have to have some sort of, where can we actually impact foreign policy and where we can't.
Raman: My second, uh. Recommendation is two articles in Indian Express. Yes.
Which appeared yesterday and today. Nu both of them have written about the arrest of this, uh, university professor and also, uh, uh, they have, uh, specially Nu is called out the Supreme Court. Uh, you know, uh, [01:42:00] interim murder or whatever that the bail order, the, the benevolence of the Supreme Court is really harsher and it is setting a precedent for, uh, you know, uh, such arrest in the, uh, future.
I think it's, uh, beautifully written, the two articles. And I think the third, uh, there's one more, uh, article which came in Hindu. Uh. Which is a kind of debate question answers, uh, where the two, uh, PR is there and Niman. So they have been asking is it possible to, uh, you know, uh, report truthfully, uh, during the war?
So, so, so what should, uh, what rules should be there where, uh, what rules do we follow the media? So it's about the media and the way there was so much misinformation during this war. So I think it was, in a way it was good. It, it gives a perspective, [01:43:00] uh, to this war reporting,
Shardool: right? Uh, I was thinking about four, but I contained myself to three.
So first one is, um, I think the first letter I wrote to you, and then I referenced this, but the situation has grown. So the first recommendation is a video on one of my favorite channels. I think I've recommended stuff from this before. It's very cassium, it's science. Scientist has a YouTube channel. So this video is named how one company secretly poisoned the planet.
And I mentioned Dark Waters in the very first letter I wrote to you that how DuPont has poisoned everything in the world by Teflon. So the research has moved on and you see that some people are fighting these unforgiving fights and everybody's complicit. Every government and every corporate is complicit.
So first is that second the economics thing you mentioned. So my second recommendation is a game. And I have stopped playing games for almost five months now because I'm trying to cramp up six to [01:44:00] seven years of economic studies in five months because I need, I want to report on it, even at least try to.
So I've stopped playing games. But this game is exceptional. It's called Clear Obscure Expedition 33. It's an indie production, it's a first time studio, and the storytelling and the nuances and the dialogue, writing and combat mechanics, which is a very important part of a game. Absolutely fun. And it's cheap because it's an indie game, so try and play this.
And third is, uh, I try to study things, but I end up writing poetry these days. So third is a old sort of novel and, uh, not novella, I mean a novel and play, uh, it's called, it's, it's, um, one of the first plays written in independent India. And it's about the love life in three acts of, um, in three actors.
The love life of K. It's beautiful. It's from Megha section of MedU, but it's very beautiful. So, yes. So char mean, char [01:45:00] means summer months, the fourth month in the Indian calendar.
Abhinandan: I have two recommendations. One is John Stewart's show, the Daily Show. Yes. Um, this is an episode where he, um, slammed the Bombshell Biden book, uh, and it's, I, I think he's.
Old, and now so many more have come up, but he's still the best because while he uses humor, the, the depth of his insight into journalism beats Jimmy Kimmel Beats. Um, the other guy, what's his name? Um,
Shardool: John Oliver. John Oliver.
Abhinandan: John Oliver or Steven Colbert. They're really funny, but he can really cut to the, the, the journalistic fuckups.
And he's roasted CNN this time and not Fox. Uh, and the second is, um, I highly recommend this. It's called how economists and TikTok know if a recession is coming. It's an interesting way to, [01:46:00] uh, understand how they actually foresee recessions, but this one, especially not just for the economist angle, but how TikTok knows, because I remember during, um, COVID, I had friends who work for Amazon, and uh, I used to speak with them.
They had more credible and accurate data on where, which part of India or the world is there a surge? Because the government data was just not credible. And it is amazing the kind of information that big tech companies have. These big tech companies, Amazon, you know, sales of oxygen concentrators, which you could order online or those things would to check your oxygen levels.
Mm. On the kind of stuff that suddenly surged in their orders. They would know, even, even the government wanna put out the data, the government could get the data weeks after these guys had real time data on where the surge is happening. So, so
Manisha: did they help
Abhinandan: all these,
Manisha: they should have helped the government then.
Abhinandan: I mean, I don't know if they worked with the [01:47:00] government or not, but it is the kind of data that these, you know, social media and big tech companies are getting, they know exactly what's happening where. Way beyond anybody else. So it's these two are my recommendations and, uh, thank you all again for all the support and the.
You know, go, go. Messages. We've got, um, do support us QR code again, and we'd like to thank our subscribers. We'd like to thank our wonderful producer Pali, and a wonderful sound, recordist Anil, and we'll see you again next week. Thank you, Manisha. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Thank, thank you. Thank you. Uh, RI.
Song: Thank you. Yes. And how many ears must one man have before he can hear people cry? Yes. And how many deaths will it take till he knows that too [01:48:00] many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind, the answer is blowing in the wind.
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