In a special episode for Press Freedom Day, Newslaundry’s Abhinandan Sekhri, Raman Kirpal, Manisha Pande and Jayashree Arunachalam are joined by historian and author Ramachandra Guha.
The panel begins with a discussion on the history of press freedom in India. Ram reflects on the similarities and differences between 1975’s Emergency and today. “The Modi regime has gone farther than Indira’s regime by weaponising agencies in a much more systematic and planned way.” Commenting on the ‘downfall’ of mainstream media, Manisha adds, “The sheer anti-people quality of the media, painting minorities as threats, is relentless and unprecedented.”
The panel discusses the history of violence in Kashmir and the attacks on Kashmiris across India after the Pahalgam terror attack. “One word from Modi and it would have stopped,” says Ram. Jayashree notes, “People are very happy to believe the worst qualities about Muslims and Kashmiris right now, and the media is feeding into it.”
This and a lot more. Tune in!
Hafta letters: Islamophobia on social media, Kashmiris losing livelihood, Bengal voter demographics
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Song: Unstoppable
Timecodes
00:00:00 – Introductions
00:02:08 - Special Press Freedom Week offer
00:03:43 – Headlines
00:10:16 - Press freedom in India
00:49:04 – Understanding the Kashmir conflict
01:14:37 – Ramachandra Guha’s recommendations
01:16:51 – Letters
01:29:16 – Recommendations
References
I Agree With Dina Nath Batra – Part 1
Trump vs. Putin, How to Stop Farage, and Kashmir Explained
Why are there no conservative intellectuals in India
Recommendations
Ramachandra
Buddenbrooks
Raman
The Truth Pill: The Myth of Drug Regulation in India
Dr. Stuart McGill: Build a Strong, Pain-Proof Back
Dr. Peter Attia: Improve Vitality, Emotional & Physical Health & Lifespan
Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity
Manisha
Jayashree
The Secret History of Gavin McInnes
Abhinandan
The TikTokers accused of triggering an election scandal
Check out previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters
Produced and recorded by Priyali Dhingra and Ashish Anand.
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Abhinandan: News Laundry. Apta, welcome to a very special episode of nfta. We are recording this on the 1st of May, but by the time this goes online, it's gonna be the 3rd of May, which is press Freedom Day word, press freedom day. That's very important for us. A news laundry. It's because that's our business, but it's actually very important for everybody who lives or wants to live in a democracy because a free press is what actually is one of the chief indicators and makes it democracy.
It's a cause and effect both. So happy press Freedom Day to everybody. Uh, before we get into the headlines and the discussion, let me introduce our panel. So on this very special press freedom day, we have got you a very, very special guest who is joining us from K Ram Chand. Welcome Ram. [00:01:00] Although all our audience knows you, it is a formality that we have to boast your credentials.
So just allow me to do that. Uh, Ram Cja, as all of you know, is a historian author in one of India's foremost public intellectuals. He's published books on cricket environment, politics, the history of pretty much everything he has previously taught at the Indian Institute of Science cre, Stanford, Yale, Berlin Institute of Advanced Studies, Indian Institute of Science, and the University of California at Berkeley.
And here comes my uncle joke. He held the, I'll probably mispronounce a lot of this, but he held the RNA NAS chair at the University of Oslo, the Indo American Community Chair at the University of California at Berkeley, and the Philippe Roman Chair in history at the International Affairs at the London School of Economics.
So when you say three chairs for Ram Guha. The very, very accomplished chairs.
song: Oh my God.
Abhinandan: Okay. [00:02:00] Also, joining me, embarrassed at my joke rif from Chennai.
Jayashree: No, no. I was waiting for the buildup. Like there was a lot of buildup for that joke,
Abhinandan: so it
Jayashree: wasn't as bad as I feared. Hello? Hello.
Abhinandan: Manisha Pande.
Jayashree: Hi.
Abhinandan: And Ramal.
Hi. Hello. Uh, so, uh, just want to inform our audience since it is press Freedom Week. Uh, we have a offer for you since you know, we don't take any ads of any kind from anyone. News, laundry supported entirely by subscribers such as yourself. As a journalist, an independent media organization is important and we take no ads.
If you take no ads, then you are already out of the major source of revenue that most news organizations this country use. So you are a lifeline. So on this press freedom day, you can buy the joint news, laundry, news, military. Joint subscription. As you know, TNM and News Laundry are now partner organizations.
And once you pa give us a few hours to map your and your friend [00:03:00] subscription, because we are giving you one plus one offer. So we, you'll get a free subscription and you can map that to any friend you want. It can be a friend who agrees with you. It can be a friend who disagrees with you but is only consuming news that is ad funded and that too Sari ad funded.
Or you can give it to your WhatsApp uncle. You just have to click on the link in the show notes below. Uh, and this link will keep coming up. And there's a QR code also that is on your screen right now. So on the Press Freedom Play gift yourself and a friend, a one plus one free offer subscription to make sure journalism is not dependent on ads, which is what BPU had also said very long ago.
Imagine he thought of it back then. So we obviously promise you an extremely informed and intellectual dis discussion today with some uncle jokes thrown in. But before we turn our attention to Ram, let's turn our attention to the headlines.
Jayashree: Yes. Here are the headlines of the week. So, in the aftermath of the Pega attack, the [00:04:00] NIA has taken over inquiry, the j and k authorities have demolished the homes of at least 10 suspected militants.
And more than 2000 people have been detained. 48 public parks and gardens in the Kmi Valley have been shut. Pakistani troops reportedly violated the ceasefire wrong, the LOC for five consecutive nights. And in Delhi, the Prime Minister has shared multiple security meetings. He's also given the Army full operational freedom to decide India's response to the attack as stated by the PMO.
The union government has also banned 16 Pakistani YouTube channels for allegedly disseminating false and provocative content. I think they also banned Pakistani soap operas. No.
Abhinandan: Yeah. And Instagram and Twitter handles of the actors, et cetera. Yeah.
Jayashree: YouTube News channel 4:00 PM was banned in India. This is because of a government order linked to national security or public order, and the UPI police booked the terrorist to Dr.
Medusa and Singer Neha author for allegedly making objectionable remarks on the Alga attack. Both women were booked for endangering sovereignty of [00:05:00] India,
Abhinandan: and apparently even ranting gola has been booked for, you don't even know what
Jayashree: tradition.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Jayashree: Incidents of violence and threats against Muslims were also reported in the aftermath of the attack.
At least 16 Shaw Sellers from Kashmir left Masuri after two vendors were attacked by locals in Mangalore. A man was lynched after he allegedly shouted pro Pakistan slogans. During a cricket match in Oliger, a 15-year-old Muslim student was assaulted and allegedly forced to urinate on a Pakistan flag. A pharmacy student from Jam Kashmir was attacked by a group of people in Nur, in a Sam government arrested 27 people who allegedly defending Pakistan on Indian soil.
And in Bengal, two Hindu men posted a poster of the Pakistan flag in a railway station. They later said they hope to create communal tension by writing Hindustan Pakistan Zaba.
Abhinandan: My God, man. It's just shocking.
Jayashree: Parade of horrific
Abhinandan: stories. Mm.
Jayashree: Right. [00:06:00] In Delhi, the Cabinet Committee on Political Affairs has approved the enumeration of caste in the next census.
This was announced by Ash Wena, but he did not say when the exercise will take place. India signed a deal with France to by 26 Rafael Marine fighter aircraft with the Navy, they'll be procured at a cost of 64,000 crows and in money pool 21 MLAs. All members of NDA parties wrote to home arm shop. They urged him to restore popular government in the state.
They said, this is the only means to bring peace and normalcy,
Abhinandan: and you will not see primetime on this.
Jayashree: In absolutely strange news, NCRT has released a new social science textbook for class seven. It's done away with chapters on the deli ult and the moguls. Instead, it gives primacy to ancient Indian dynasties and cultural heritage.
It also has references to the 2025 Maha, because why not?
Abhinandan: I love Georgie's Tweet on this. He says, wonderful. Now our students can learn that the Rabo lost true no one. Yes. [00:07:00]
Jayashree: In Delhi as Chief Minister Ika Gupta performed an of Baba ab Ishwar who was a Self Tite Goldman, the anti-corruption branch of the Delhi government filed a case.
This is against Aaps Manish Ria, and sat Jane over an alleged scam in construction of schools in classrooms.
Abhinandan: And just the same week the enforcement directorate has find the filed a closure report on the. Sorry, Kalmar and the Commonwealth Games
Raman: 15. Uh, yes. This is 15 years after 15-year-old case. Yeah.
17-year-old case. So all, if you see, uh, the course of political, uh, you know, crime or whatever, whether it is ED or CBI, this is what happens normally. Right. Even, even, even like they have kept, you know, a case CBI, there is a CBI case against, uh, this ti and they have kept it alive. Uh, it is dormant right now, but as in when she says something,
Abhinandan: yeah,
Raman: they'll [00:08:00] make it alive.
Otherwise the case will never get sold.
Abhinandan: Right.
Raman: And in the end
Jayashree: they will just
Raman: close it.
Jayashree: It's also worth mentioning that today, May 1st is ish Ari's birthday. Oh. He is turning 18, so, wow. Yes, in news from the courts, the Madras High Court has held that public trust in the CBI is deteriorating. This is due to the agency's biased investigations.
It said, and the Supreme Court, while hearing a 2021 batch of petitions against Pegasus says There's nothing wrong with India possessing spyware for national security. But it did express con concerns about its alleged misuse against private individuals. There are water war between Punjab and ana. The Akra BA management Board has replaced its director of water regulation from a Punjab Kara officer to a ANA one Punjab reacted very strongly and stepped up security at the regulator end of the Al Dam.
This is amid fear of a law and order problem. The BMB also decided to release eight HUN [00:09:00] 8,500 Q secs of water to Hana on humanitarian grounds. A decision vehemently opposed by Punjab.
Abhinandan: Yeah, because they say that Hana's already used its share of the water.
Jayashree: Yeah.
Raman: 103%.
Abhinandan: Right.
Jayashree: And finally, as Trump completes a hundred days in a second term, a new report has revealed that US economy contracted for the first time in three years in its first quarter.
Abhinandan: And if it contracts in one more quarter, we have a recession. So bizarre. On that note, I'm surprised that Yeshi also didn't mention today is mayday. Hmm. Unites far more important.
Manisha: We're working's birthday,
Abhinandan: far more's birthday.
Manisha: You know, people have ti on Mayday
Abhinandan: dude in Germany, Berlin, there's this march of the workers on Mayday.
Yes. On uh, uh, what do you call in this road? What's it called? Um, the guy with the beard. Karl Marx Road
Raman: Beard. Even today, I think, uh, in India also, I think many,
Abhinandan: there's a, there's a [00:10:00] mayday March.
Raman: Many offices
Abhinandan: are closed. Ah, they're closed. Yeah. But the mayday march in Berlin is like legendary now. Of course we are, we are the bourgeois, we are the labor.
Don't, first of all, stop putting yourself as labor. Stop it. You guys, you are the top 1%. Just, just stop it. Just stop it. Okay, great. Let's get back to Ram Guha Ram on Press Freedom week. And just give us a little. History of press freedom in India. Uh, it, there was, was there ever a golden age? We keep saying there wasn't, but was there?
Ramachandra: Well, there wasn't a golden age, but there were ages that were more dark and ages that were more light. Mm-hmm. So I was a college student in Delhi during the emergency. I started reading the paper newspaper before then in English. Uh, and uh, I was there in Delhi. And of course it was complete propaganda.
And, uh, though, [00:11:00] um, radio of course was state controlled. Mm-hmm. The joke was, it was called All in India Radio.
Abhinandan: Oh, was it? Okay.
Ramachandra: Yeah. IR mm and, uh, uh, but newspapers though technically free, were rigorously censored. Mm-hmm. There were a few brave English newspapers that occasionally carried to sending opinions.
But the important difference then after that, so you have the emergency, then you have a liberating, liberating period after the emergency. So the emergency is lifted, suddenly there's more freedom. A different party is coming to par, and also they do, technology is available. You know, offset printing becomes available for the first time in the late seventies and early eighties.
So a newspaper can publish the same edition in many different kind cities and get reports from many different parts of India simultaneously. Then of course you have the cable news evolution.
song: Mm-hmm.
Ramachandra: And I'd say the eighties were a time when there was a lot of freedom and creativity in English and in regional languages.
And I [00:12:00] urge your viewers, those who still like to read books, uh, to pick up a wonderful book called India's Newspaper Revolution by Robin Jeffrey. A very fine Australian historian of India and his book, India's Newspaper Revolution is an authoritative account of how post emergency, there was an florences of Mag Florences of newspapers, magazines, in different languages, you know, showing their creativity.
song: Now,
Ramachandra: obviously the last decade and so on, that has changed radically. And, uh, you, if you wish, I can talk a little bit about the differences between the emergency differences and similarities between the emergency and now. Oh, you know, uh, there are two very striking similarities. One is that you have a government in Delhi that seeks the very systematically, like in the r Gandhi's government to control, manipulate, doctor, direct, all forms of media, digital media, print media, television, media [00:13:00] and so on.
That's one similarity. The second similarity is that you have a government in Delhi that, that's six two. A like in, uh, university to seek, to promote burnish, enhance, magnify a personality cult of the Prime Minister.
song: Mm-hmm.
Ramachandra: You know, so India, eyes India, and was India. Now mood is India.
song: Mm-hmm.
Ramachandra: Those are the similarities which are very disturbed.
Now, at the same time, there are some dissimilarities. One is that, uh, which, uh, should also be noted. They should not be overestimated. But this diff this, this differences should be noted. One is that during the emergency, the Congress party of Za Gandhi was in par in Delhi and in all states except Tamran.
song: Wow. Today you
Ramachandra: have, uh, you have actually, uh, you know, uh, state governments that are not, not mother, BJP in many parts of India. Yeah. And if you were to look only at the English newspapers printed in this [00:14:00] country, I would say. That the more submissive and the more propagandist English newspapers operate out of Delhi, the less submissive and the more open-minded and slightly more free and critical newspapers operate outside Delhi.
song: Mm-hmm. So
Ramachandra: that's, and usually in governments, uh, that are not run by the BJP.
song: Right? So
Ramachandra: I write for the paragraph, okay. Mm-hmm. Where I've had full freedom writing in my column for the last 30 years. I have criticized the congress, the left, the BJP, the regional parties. Uh, now, uh, that could be because Bengal has never been rule by the BJP.
song: Right?
Ramachandra: Likewise. Uh, so I think this, this is one, uh, one difference. The other difference is you have spaces in the digital media. Like yours.
song: Mm-hmm.
Ramachandra: And others, one could mention, you know, uh, like Scroll, which is one of my favorite websites, right? So news, news, military operates outta my hometown, Bangalore.
Mm-hmm. Uh, that, that are more open, more reflective, more report based, more independent. [00:15:00] So, uh, the, I'd say broadly speaking, the situation is rather dire. But as a historian, I would have to say that it was even worse in the emergency. This is not to feel complacent or happy about where we are also, but
Abhinandan: it's a historical perspective also.
It's 2025 and that was, you know, the seventies. The big difference. Uh, so I, you know, I'll just quickly go on the panel 'cause I'm sure you also have questions for Ram. We don't get Ram every day, but, uh, briefly Ram 'cause and I just wanna go to Raman from his experience. I read a policy paper I think about six, seven years ago, uh, on, uh, I was curious as to why.
While they're relaxing the rules and, uh, that private parties can, uh, broadcast news on the television. Radio FM had way more, uh, tight rules for news. They will not allow private news on radio, even though they try [00:16:00] and apparently in that policy paper, and there is some historical evidence, the world over the pace at which news travels on radio is like TV cannot even compare to that.
And I, it was a revelation to me. I mean, is is that true? And until, that is why till today the broadcast television broadcast was liberalized as, I mean, private parties could do news. It's almost been 20 years now. I think early 2002 was the first news channel, if I'm not wrong. Mm-hmm. It's been 23 years.
Even today, I. FM is not allowed to do news. So is there, is there something special about radio? I mean, I, I, I don't get it. Some logic to it. Yeah. Is there a logic, and
Ramachandra: I mean, that, that's quite interesting. I mean, you know, because if you look at, uh, uh, if you look at the, uh, experience of, uh, Soviet run Eastern Europe, which was an extremely authoritarian, uh, part of the world decision radio, you know, beamed into Hungary and Poland and Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia [00:17:00] from other western Europe in their languages, not in English, but in, or in American, but in Czech and Polish and Hungarian, they a critical role in the awakening of the eighties that led to the dismantling of the Soviet Empire.
I see. You know,
Abhinandan: so maybe they know some of this. So there is some historical evidence to radio's effectiveness. Okay. Absolutely.
Raman: So, so you, no, I think, uh, radio. Has started serving the interest of the government in Delhi. Uh, if you see, uh, if, I mean, you also listen to it. My house is pretty far from the office, so I get two hours listening to the radio, you know, when, when I'm driving and then driving back to so almost four hours.
So they, they as, uh, Ram said about, uh, this cult mm-hmm. Modi cult.
Abhinandan: Yeah.
Raman: So, uh, so the government has found a way to promote Modi Cult through the FM radio. So you'll see, uh, often, you know, monkey bath. Yeah. All of them are doing,
Abhinandan: because even from point of view [00:18:00] marker. A good example. Yeah. Yes. It doesn't make sense.
'cause if there are five channels and the other four are playing monkey bath. Me as a channel owner should say, I should not play Monkey Bar because I cannot compete for those. True. But yet everybody plays monkey bars.
Raman: Yes. So, so, so I think radio, they're very cleverly using this radio. And besides, if you see, uh, since 2014, uh, there is, uh, a surge in, uh, you know, uh, issuing lessons or giving permission for the community radio.
Mm-hmm. If you have heard of this, this is the very local community radio where they used to, uh, you know, give, uh, permission just to promote the local, uh, I know
Abhinandan: someone who actually runs the community Radio, radio land ways, local
Raman: culture
Abhinandan: in, uh, Ariana. Yeah. But again, it's highly regulated. I mean, you so much as mentioned, anything that can be seen as news or current affairs, you have had to pay it.
Just the
Raman: Modi cult.
Abhinandan: In fact, uh, in fact, lemme
Ramachandra: just, uh, say one thing, one qualified remark when I said that you have spaces open, uh, to non [00:19:00] BJP, you know, because, uh, the fact that the whole of the country is not on the BJP. Mm-hmm. At the same time. I'd say what, what respect in which the Mohi regime has gone farther than Indi regime is they weaponize the agencies in a much more systematic and PL way.
Mm-hmm. So you should apply to radio owners as well and TV owners that you may not be in Delhi, you may not be in a even a BJP rule state,
song: but
Ramachandra: in Bangalore or in uh, uh, Chenai or in, uh, you can still have your offices rated by a central agency.
song: Right. So
Ramachandra: that in part, which was always there, Hmm, had been exercised in a much more systematic and ruthless way by the current rating.
Abhinandan: And one more thing, and like Rama pointed out, there was a three page ad by, uh, mata. It's not just stick carrot, also see revenue. We've done so many stories of networking, the amount of ad money that was spent on ads. I mean, for the month of the kuban, the month before that, a significant chunk of all broadcast news revenue came from [00:20:00] KU every second A of the Mbba.
Yeah.
Manisha: And there was lots, like big half an hour chunks. And then
Abhinandan: there was a show on the KMB followed by that mbba. So, and that is something also Ram, I'm sure all the parties had that budget, but the way it's been weaponized by everybody now, no matter which party.
Ramachandra: So, so I think just again, one, one footnote on the questions of personality card.
There's a mega culture in Delhi, but they are medium-sized kinds of mata and Bengal Ah, yes. Standing in Tamu. Yes. Until recently, Val in, uh, uh, Del Delhi. So at that becomes, so the local state, uh, media has to satisfy the urgings of that local cult. You know, they can be no other bjp ese cannot have a cult.
Right. Whichever the other was Shaba or whatever is in power in the Northern States has to be a bjp regime, has to be totally, uh, you know, obscure and invisible and uncharismatic, but certainly with Manta, Stalin vi, who's supposed to be a communist opposed to [00:21:00] personality cult, and of course Val, when he was in pa.
Mm-hmm. I mean, it's rather colossal. I mean, at, at, at the level of the state. It is as significant, uh, in distorting debate opinion as Modi is, uh, at the level of the nation as a whole.
Abhinandan: Before we move to Chennai, Manisha on press freedom. You have been covering it now, of course for a decade now, downward slide.
During the, each time you think we've hit a new law, then you say, no, we haven't yet. There's another new laws come.
Manisha: I know, and I think I just on the differences that Ram was talking about, what Indra Gandhi did with the press and what we are seeing in the mood years, I don't know how it was back then, but I think a key differences, surely, and I don't think this has happened before, the sure anti-people quality of the media, you know, whether it's talking about Jihad, love jihad, painting minorities as people who will steal your women spit on your food, or that daily kind of finding an enemy and going after them, that is relentless.
And I've said this before, I see [00:22:00] this from 2016 onwards after the Jnu Sedition case. That's the first time. So it's one thing to build a personality cult. It's one thing to praise the leader in par. It's one thing to say that the opposition is shit, but it's quite another to. Demonize people who are against the government.
Mm-hmm. As in, you know, your, to create gang, your, their stooges of I, and you've had real life repercussions of this. Like, soju goes to jail under UAPA, every activist who's done jail time or is under, you know, some UAPA or citizen law media campaign, it starts off with the media campaign. So that, I think is a very chief feature of what has happened in the last 10 years, that there's a very decided anti-people focus of the media where they just turn against the very people that they're supposed to be serving.
And that's very devious. It can't be, you know, it's, it's not political bias, it's not ideology, it's just sheer anti-people stuff that we see on the media. Any, and that's [00:23:00] any such examples in other
Abhinandan: parts of the world, Ram historically not just,
Ramachandra: yeah, so I, I, I mean, I, I, I agree with, uh, very much a bit malicious, very, very important point, because again, one difference between Modi and either AHI is II was unquestionably authoritarian.
Modi is a regime and Modi's party and Modi's, uh, is authoritarian as well as majoritarian, you know? Mm-hmm. And much of the stigma, of course, Maia is right. The liberalization is often of brave, independent minded activists like, and Uber kha, uh, and Uber Khas case. There's also the burden of not being a Hindu, right?
Hence the demonization of the whole community. Now, uh, of course, uh, I just says, uh, this is now we are seeing disturbingly a global trend. You know, the, the, the descent of formally, reasonably democratic regimes into substantially authoritarian states. I is been visible in, in [00:24:00] Turkey, in Israel, in Hungary, in India, and now probably most, uh, dramatically in the United States, uh, and with most visible consequences because of the economical military power in the United States.
And if you look at the capitulation of. The Washington Post, you know, uh, uh, is, would be a striking example of, uh, of, of, of this. And, uh, though of course it hasn't gone to this level. I mean, Maissa is very, very late later, later hands on Mething quite important because you may have, uh, shall we say, a right wing newspaper in, in, um, in America, which worships Trump mocking Trump's critics, but they would rarely use the vicious personalized debate and really awful language, uh, that sections of India media will use against the kind of people Manisha has mentioned.
Right. So it it's, it, it's very dehumanizing. In fact, again, it's dehumanizing.
song: Yeah.
Ramachandra: As a historian, I would say this kind of language. [00:25:00] That is used in a rip wing authoritarian context, was previously used much more widely by lefting authoritarian regimes. This is the kind of things that the Chinese state would call the, you know?
Mm-hmm. Or, or the Russian state would call Andres, you know?
song: Mm-hmm.
Ramachandra: Termite gutter, uh, you know, uh, whatever sc on the earth. And that kind even hit, of course, Hitler would do it. I mean, Hitler and so would do it. So it's funny. It's kind the basic of language, you know. You mentioned, uh, Gandhi now, uh, uh, I mean, not everyone can be a Gandhi, but what the legacies that Gandhi left your behind.
Uh, that stayed right. I'd say up to the regime is that there was a certain tamis in political discourse. You know, you discrete, but you didn't name call, you didn't question a person's patriotism. His honesty, her property. You didn't say everything in the foreign past, you know? Now everyone, I mean, I'm sure, uh, you know, uh, that [00:26:00] for some people who were, not many, but some people who have watched this program, we all been funded by George Soros, you know?
Yeah.
Abhinandan: We get that a lot.
Manisha: Look at what's happened in the aftermath of Alga, where you've had, you know, retired army officers come say that, you know, we must not fight among ourselves. This is not about Muslims don't attack ash. You've had victims who've lost, I mean, they faced with such. A tragedy. They've seen something so terrible.
And you've had wives who've lost husbands appeal that, you know, let us not attack. Exactly.
Abhinandan: I saw that today. And
Manisha: yet see what news channels are doing.
Abhinandan: Yeah, it's really sorry. The very
Manisha: first day, the first thing was to just say, you know, let's go at Muslims. Let's go at Kashmiris. And so in that sense, I think it's worse than even BJP in many cases.
Even Raj not saying this week earlier onset that you know, this is not about Kashmiris, it's not about Muslims. You have to stand united. But anchors would not relent. So I think it's another beast of its own now.
Raman: No, I was, I was witness to this, [00:27:00] how it started. It was in 2016. I was with one of the editors with DNA and uh, ra.
Once he called all the D-N-A-I-I. I mean, I was witness to it. I was. Present in that meeting. Mm. Where he said that now onwards we are going to make nationalism the main news and nobody will question that. Mm. Okay. Uh, within a week, uh, there's one senior person came to me and there were two Kashmiris in my bureau.
So they asked me to let them go sack them. Okay. It all, it all started and how this, the kid instruction nationalism, it became the see nationalism became the main plan for all the, uh, TV media and the newspapers. And that's how they are dehumanizing. In fact, the edition
Manisha: Case Z news was at the forefront of exactly the whole case.
Yes.
Abhinandan: No, but lemme just get, uh, our [00:28:00] Chennai news laundry office in the, uh, I mean
Jayashree: office.
Abhinandan: But you know, like in Bengal, we know from our friends, uh, ed up. Is really with an iron fist, she rules. It is very hard to be critical of mata there. Just like in Telangana or KCRK.
Raman: C-R-K-C-R
Abhinandan: was unforgiving a journalist who try to criticize.
That's why most of the stories or investigations about his government were happening outside Telangana because he was, you know, would really be as authoritarian as anybody else. Mm-hmm. But Stalin hasn't got that reputation yet. Is it because he's managed it well? Or is it because he's genuinely not as bad as the rest?
Jayashree: No. Also, because the easiest point of comparison would be JTA who is extremely tight when it came to reacting to news stories on, yeah. In fact,
Abhinandan: after she died from 169 cases or something against journalists. So can
Jayashree: really stack up to that. See my thing is there are no. I mean, when we say [00:29:00] if one is better than the other, one is probably better than the other.
But at the end of three, they're all politicians and they're all serving certain interests which are supposedly for the greater good of the public and all, but which are not. And the thing is that Rums was saying that, you know, we got that directive on we're going to be nationalists and stuff like that.
So between all of us on this panel, I think we've all worked in maybe like a total of 10 or 15 newsrooms. And you don't realize the kind of decisions that take place in newsrooms until you work in one. It is could be something as benign as a report on a hospital or whatever and on a city page, but you're like, no, it will not be carried because of certain decisions, or you're taking this decision because you don't wanna annoy somebody who's in the government.
And this isn't good newspapers and bad newspapers. So we see the worst of it in news channels, but it exists at every level in all these newspapers, all these newsrooms that we also speak of quite respectfully, but a version, this does take place. And I think that is where media is failing. Like I know. I often say that I don't think India is a democracy, like just holding elections [00:30:00] doesn't make you a democracy.
But yeah, at the end of the day, we do have many flavors of media that do exist and continue to exist in report. So by that definition, I do think that there is hope and value and whatever. But the other thing I wanna say about press Freedom though, is that we, so, I mean, we're all independent practitioners, right?
And then people ask me this a lot, uh, they're like, do you feel afraid? Like, is your organization afraid? And I always feel like we ask those questions to the wrong people. Um. Except for me, for example, my answer to that is no, of course I'm not, because I mean, I am privileged in terms of my religion, my cast, my class, my background, my connections.
You know, even if I am not personally friends with a civil servant, they're like maybe two degrees of separation and I will find someone who can help me. But these are not the resources and the stakes for most of the people who work in the business. These are much smaller journalists. They're much smaller RTI, activists and others on the ground who are asking real questions.
And in the real democracy, these are the people that we should worry about and these are the people we should protect. So I [00:31:00] think in elite newsrooms, we are safer than others. I mean, we are also at risk, and yet we are also safe, you know? So there is that sort of contradiction in how we look at it, and I feel the nature of the work is what is important.
I mean. Sanji, but he took on the wrong, he took on the wrong people in the category to which he belongs in. He's an exception. But the same engine is wreaked on multiple vulnerable people day in and day out. Those who don't have connections and those who don't have the privilege to use it as a shield. So I worry a lot about that.
Like I feel it, I feel like we are sort of amplifying the same issues amongst ourselves, but then there are so many others. What, uh, colonial Masters would've called the masters who also exist and who also struggle and also work, but also don't have the kind of, you know, connection that we do. So, yeah. And that is scary.
But yeah. So also, I mean, about America, um, I mean, I agree that yes, they wouldn't use the sort of language that we see, the sort of. Level of discord or parasite or insect or whatever. But [00:32:00] also I do think that even though the US is this beacon of, you know, democracy and liberal democracy, that top media organizations are still quite hand in glove with the ruling class.
I would say like within a small window, they will ask questions and make people uncomfortable, but I don't think they fundamentally are shaking up the system in the way that they could.
Abhinandan: So I mean, I, I think that, you know, they can shift fast. They are, they're a lot more, you know, nimble like that, which yeah, are institutionally we not, I guess because institution memory, but, uh, Ram just before I come to Manisha, and then we'll move to Kashmir after that, uh, on the whole thing.
I mean, while I, I get what, um, RI is saying that everyone's a politician, but yet there are degrees of differences. I think the Modi model has been adopted by many. I mean, I'm not saying Congress is wonderful, but the anger and viciousness with which. At least the Congress of my time. I'm not from RAs, but [00:33:00] also didn't have that kind of mandate.
I guess after that A UPA wasn't that mandate.
song: Mm.
Abhinandan: The, even now, I mean, you hear of some extreme cases in Punjabi, even where, you know, OP is there. Of course we know about Ana, we know about Bengal, but you don't hear about Congress ruled Al Pradesh coming down on a journalist. The way, you know, the SMA comes down on them in asam.
I, I think at some level the Congress is, I'm not saying they're wonderful and fair, but they're less vicious than all the rest. Would you, I mean, historically that may not be accurate, but contemporary wise, I think it does kind of,
Ramachandra: no, no, no. Before I cut the question, I think one, just briefly I need to, one aspect which all of you are aware of and, and, uh, which is the reason you don't take ads, is there are two major threats to media freedom.
One ADEs from the state. Which we've discussed so far, and the other emanate from corporate interests. Right. And this is also a fairly [00:34:00] longstanding, you know, uh, so I'll give you an example that goes back to the early eighties. Three of my close college friends became journalists. Two, uh, sold. I sold to, uh, ruling P party politicians.
One retained is independence. So I, uh, largely retail is, I think I'd say, uh, almost only retail is independence. Hmm. Now, that person in the early eighties wanted to do a story on chemical contamination. Uh, you know, this is just before boal, a year or two, before Boal. And his two college friends in my presence advised him.
Asam, your magazines, uh, corporate, uh, MD will be upset. Corporate funding will go now, 40 years later is much worse. If you look at, for example, the most, uh, the threats at the legal harassment of journalists by aari. And by a money, I mean, if you look at one visible recent example, the scrubbing of so many sources on the net of stories, [00:35:00] uh, and well researched and rather credible and important stories on the scandal that is the WTA zoo.
Mm-hmm.
song: And
Ramachandra: all the, all the laws that it is violated. So I think this is one thing we should absolutely be sensible of how corporate interest has manipulated, distorted the functioning of the media and played almost not as important, but a substantially important role, uh, alongside, uh, repression by political parties and state and central government.
So I think I wanted to just flag that. Now, other Congress, you know, I'll tell you, I'll be honest. Of course, you know, uh, uh, the Congress, uh. Doesn't have that kind of ruthlessness, you know, uh, uh, but still there are elements of the media, uh, that are, you know, also, you know, they're much smaller. Uh, they're much less visible, but they're critical of the Maori government and they will not be critical of the Congress.
Now, you know, you know, my position on this, you know Sure. My view articulated [00:36:00] for many years is that the istic culture of the Congress thinks it was, it was a very painful example for other parties, including as JC will, uh, certify the DMK becoming a family party as Sheen and so on at there are certain credible, uh, brave independent media organizations will never talk about this.
We take it for granted that Raul Gandhi will always be leader of the Congress party and he'll be halon his left and Priyanka is, uh, on his right. Although this vates every principle of democracy and republicanism, it also a monarch. The same way as Moody's a one person rule is. And what, so I think this is a, this is something where, what happens, uh, often I, I'd say this right, like Jesse's, uh, uh, uh, feedback on this, Jesse's absolutely right that Janet, I was truly awful.
So, uh, you know, so you judge Stalin is not as bad, but at the same [00:37:00] time, many camel intellectuals will never criticize Stalin anointing his son as a successor, even though they are more qualified people because they feel this, they feel this will give ammunition to BJP similar. Many people will in Delhi, you know, some beauty have some news websites in Delhi will not criticize the, uh, the cult of the DHIS because they think it'll give, uh, GP some ammunition.
But I believe a journalist must be truly independent of every political party in every politician. And I think that's, that's something, uh, I'd like to say, just to say. The Yes, at one level the Congress is not as bad. But you know, with the history of, let me make one rather bold and possibly reckless, uh, prediction.
When the history of India's descent into authoritarianism and majoritarianism is written, it can only be written 20, 30 years from now because you need that distance. I'll be dead. And some of [00:38:00] you'll be still around to read the history. Whoever writes it, it'll be shown that this dissent had two sets of facilitators, the BJP and the RSS on the one side and the Congress party of the GIES on the other.
You know, so I think that's, of course, there's a asymmetry side. One has contributed much more to the decline of democracy and even the decline of prefe. So I think this is where I am always hesitant, uh, as an independent writer to say. You know, uh, if there's a lesser even not, let's
Abhinandan: not even qualitative.
So, so, sorry, I just, two, three points I wanna make. I, I agree with half of what you said. Ram and I small disagree with some of it. One is you could still be alive 50 years from now Ram. They will have invented a medicine by then in addition to curing, uh, COVID cancer, homosexuality. He'd also be able to [00:39:00] cure death.
I'm sure. In fact, today, again, the court hold him up because after telling the court that he will not do any anti thing he did again. So on that you may be wrong. Uh, while I just want to acknowledge that yes, uh, the Congress isn't as bad, let us also remind people, suffer harsh was beaten to death by Congress girls.
Manisha: Mm-hmm. Uh,
Abhinandan: it was one of the most
Manisha: brutal, killing, brutal killings, indel
Abhinandan: like, of a man who was so amazingly gifted. I mean, it was, but at the same time, today's congress is I guess, different. Uh, but, you know, uh, on, on two issues, Ram one is that the cult, what you're saying is, you know, Stalin's son. Right? I'm not sure the reason for that anymore is, um, a desire for families to clinging on to power.
And I've discussed this earlier, at least from what I understand, a has journalist to, to cover this on a daily basis. The motivation. Some of them may [00:40:00] 'cause they don't want to give BJP ammunition. But I think at one level it is also understanding, like the cult of Modi. There is a political wisdom to it, which I think is a outcome of the digital age.
Uh, where the world over, you know, that Argentine president, the guy who was going on with the saw, I think he did the chainsaw before Musk did.
song: He
Abhinandan: was such an over the top character. The guy who won the election, which was then later canceled, um, that YouTube character, uh, which country canceled its election.
Um, it'll just come to me. Um, 'cause they, they said it's, he's basically a YouTube character. Uh, basically, um, TikTok has, uh, it'll, I'll just tell you then Trump, you know, reality stars. Uh, it's all about the character. And today also, while I agree that, you know, Rahul Gandhi may not be the best [00:41:00] qualified, he's the only glue that holds the Congress together.
If there is no Gandhi, you know, KA of course is irrelevant now, but he would've set out his own little thing in Mad Dedeh would've set out with his own little thing. The only reason they can't do that is because there is someone who has a Pan India. I mean, they got 29% of the vote share in the country.
No one else in the Congress can get that. And I think that is an outcome of today's influencer economy, where whether it's an instant influencer, it's a Twitter influencer, it's a TikTok influencer. That's how our brains are wired. And I think politicians have understood that, that, dude, I gotta be the dude.
They should see my face everywhere. And that will get you votes. So it's, it's also strategically, I think, smart. And if you see the world over outta the. You know, ordinary characters are getting the votes, not necessarily the smartest people. So do you think there's something to do with that? And it may not be just
Ramachandra: let's, correction, it's not 29% is 19%, but anyway, [00:42:00] sorry.
19. Okay. Let's, you know, that's, that's, but that, that's the issue I wanna put on the table. I mean that's, uh, you know, obviously there larger issues, uh, we have to deal with. Yeah.
Manisha: Gandhi family Congress has Gandhi, whatever, you know, party essentially is pre social media. And the reason why it is so, is because the people in the top didn't work hard enough to make this a party, which could truly represent or have others who could rival Gandhi.
It's not that Instagram came and then so Aldi had to kind of take on the man. He's been given that since he was born. Sure. Even
Abhinandan: before. But, but, uh, sorry, it is just come to me. It was Romania, a recount of votes cast on Sunday's first final round. This of course happened last year in November. Uh, a surprise winner called Callen George.
K, uh, because he went viral on Twitter. He had no political background, nothing, and he bloody beat the established political parties. Of course, they canceled it saying that there'll be another election because who's this dude? TikTok Stars cannot be.
Ramachandra: What he say is also to [00:43:00] Risconi Trump and Zelensky.
Right. They also, outside politics, they're creators of the media, you know, uh, picture of the media and, and you know, that kind of thing. Yeah.
Abhinandan: So, sorry. Anything on this before we move on to Kashmir? Uh, Jahi was saying something. Yeah, I
Jayashree: was thinking, I mean, see I completely agree with Ram on that. I used to once have this colleague, he was a fantastic reporter.
Um, he used to report from, uh, the Southern states. So he was off the mind that, you know, like how you said that people are sort of reluctant to criticize the Congress because they're like, well, you're feeding into ammunition that everybody else needs to. The BGP doesn't need it, and there's a time and place to criticize the Congress and that it's not this time.
So this colleague of mine was also of the view that. Journalists should report keeping those things in mind. He was like, you should report on something truthfully and honestly. But you should also keep in mind the larger picture. Like can this be used by somebody else? And I used to have a fundamental argument with him because I just don't see that, I mean, I think your job is that you report, there is a story, you report on it.
You should only gauging whether the story will be used by X or [00:44:00] by Y to be manipulated in a particular way. And I think that does happen a lot. And like you said, like we are very reluctant to sort of criticize the DMK also because the b jb is so much worse. It is fundamentally so much worse. So therefore we don't, but we do then in this tale, I mean, see like Stalin marked his time in the DMK, like he was in politics for decades and he waited and then he, he started in, in his teens, he worked his way up.
He was male, he was everything. And then he became chief minister then It hasn't did none of those things. I mean he was a very well known actor and producer, again due to family connections, whatever. And then he contest his first election like three years ago and then now he's deputy chief minister. So I do think there's a huge difference in.
That. I mean, this is a very classic example of a man who got the job just because his father is Stalin. I would argue not so much. He did have to put in the work for it. But Stalin for sure, I just
Manisha: wanna take this, uh, conversation on, you know, uh, not criticizing a party because that gives BGP ammunition too, the intellectual side of things.
And I've often thought of that, and especially after reading [00:45:00] your book, uh, around the cooking of books, which I think is fabulous. Everyone should read it. Everyone should pick it up. Yeah. Tell me that. I have to read the book. In fact, that's on my table. It was a thin book, but I really took my time to read it because I just, I just didn't want it to get over.
And one of the interesting things that you notice in the book is that, see today it's all liberals versus the right. Yeah. But, and liberals are this umbrella and it's one group, and the right is one group. But it wasn't so earlier. The liberals within themselves had a lot of arguments. It wasn't this one camp, in fact.
2009, I became a journalist in 2009 to 12. It was actually a very exciting time where people so-called within the liberal umbrella would argue it out quite a bit with each other. I remember like Arun Theros piece on you, on Outlook. Then your response to her talking about, you know, so there was this lot of kind of, you know, debate Ron Ndii.
No. And also just, you know, agreeing, disagreeing with people who are not necessarily [00:46:00] on the opposite spectrum. And I find that very laborious today that, you know this at one level, I get it. We can't argue with each other because one person is fighting a terror case, the other person is fighting a tradition case.
So you have to have those broader solidarity and you can't get into like, you know, so I get that, but it's also kills the fun C boring becomes and also the, the fun of, you know, like debate. With people who can actually wait. It makes
Abhinandan: discourse less intelligent.
Manisha: Yeah. It makes discourse less. What do you think about that?
Do you find it tiring? Absolutely. Now. Absolutely.
Ramachandra: I mean, you know, I mean, one of my, uh, to me one of the most stimulating exchanges I've ever had was with, uh, Ammar, said in EPW, on the users in abuses of history for settling. Political debates and, you know, we had different positions, but we were very civilized that we articulated them.
And he's a scholar I hugely admired, but I felt, uh, uh, at some stage one had to criticize some of what he said for intellectual and even political reasons, not for personal reasons. Mm-hmm.
song: So
Ramachandra: I think that is something that has gone [00:47:00] out. EPW uh, used to be a for of those kinds of debates. I mean, unfortunately it's declined quite a lot.
Um, and also, you know, you don't have, uh, even the outside VPW places like the Hindu and Outlook would have long term journalism. Now that's gone. I mean, it's shifted to maybe, you know, places like you where you have a discussion for an now, but it is that it MA's absolutely. Right. You know, we should not, uh, that is for refining your own ideas.
Uh, it's often more important to have critical exchanges with people who are broadly on your side mm-hmm. Than you know. Join them in attacking the other side. Exactly. So that, and you know, this book, that booking of books that Milia mentioned, I mean, it's somewhat of four decade, uh, friendship conducted largely through correspondence with a friend with whom I shared a lot and disagreed quite vehemently on certain things.
And, you know, I think, uh, so I think that's, that, that's true. I mean that's, uh, it is become very, very polarized now
Manisha: and Absolutely right. Like if you [00:48:00] wanna refine your own ideas, it's often with people maybe on the same ideological spectrum as you, 'cause you're really good faith
Abhinandan: arguments really help.
Yeah.
Manisha: Yeah. I,
Abhinandan: I completely agree. Uh, so before we wanna ash mi, just wanna once again remind you that it is press freedom day. And so press freedom week for hafta. Uh, you can buy. Special Press Freedom Day offer, which is a news laundry newsman and joint subscription. And you can get one plus one free for a friend, a family member of your choice, or a WhatsApp uncle.
You can click on the link below or scan the QR code on your screens right now and on Press Freedom Day support journalists who are going out and doing on ground reports. And like we've told you, we carry very few opinion pieces and that too from area experts. Not just anything for click ba, but our meat and potatoes is ground reports and our reporters are always on the ground getting you something.
Ramachandra: I hope this offer is open to what, uh, I mean the gifts to WhatsApp aunties are also allowed.
Abhinandan: Yes, absolutely. WhatsApp aunties also, [00:49:00] let's, let's not be sexist on that, that there can be, uh, all sorts of, of fake news that come from both, both sides. Uh, but now coming to Kashmir, uh, Ram. I don't know whether you have the answer, but I just wanna share an observation.
It happened the second time I listen this podcast called and the rest is history. It's a fantastic podcast from their entire, it's the same studio that also brings out Willie Demple's podcast. And it also has, uh, and the rest is, uh, um, what was the other one? I, I forget. Uh, rest is politics. The rest is politics.
Sorry. Yes. And the rest is politics is the one I'm talking about. Uh, and they have, the rest is history. So I was listening to the Rest is Politics and they explained it on Kashmir. And I mean, it's very hard to say that I've been fed on propaganda, but I believe I'm not a pro propaganda. You know, when the Up was in Power, I was doing Hanas against UPA.
But I have noticed, including the one, this is day before yesterday's episode, they explained around Kash. [00:50:00] Somehow they. Never say. And you know, we've carried a piece on that, that any terrorists were either trained in Pakistan or Pakistan, had anything to do with the disturbance in Kashmir. It is always at the same time, they don't say it's not.
Mm. Like even when they described the people, the terrorists, and I will happily use the word terrorists, because I think that's what they were, who killed the tourists, they describe those people with guns and you can make out how they're walking over, you know? Yeah. Walking around eggshells when they're discussing this.
And somehow it's like, don, same, same. 50 50. And the one thing that they said is that, you know, this region had a majority Muslim population and a largely indigenous, uh, uh, uh, largely homegrown uprising, which is not true. I, I understand. I've been to Kashmir at least a dozen times, if not more in the last 25, 30 years.
Manisha: It's not entirely homegrown.
Abhinandan: It's, uh, it's exactly. And also, yes, now less so, but earlier. Regular Kashmiri would not consider himself Indian. And they were, they had no [00:51:00] qualms in saying it to you, just normally there were no mobile cameras, you know? But at the same time, they didn't want, like, they didn't want, they didn't hate India, but they said, no, we are not you.
We are us. Yeah. Uh, but why is the Western media like that? Or is it that we have been conditioned to believe that? What is the historical context of this conflict? How the world sees it, because it's very different. And these are not voices that are ignorant or prejudiced as the writing would believe.
Like what do they get? It's not like Pakistan can afford to pay them anything. Uh, but why is it like that ram?
Ramachandra: That's a very long question. I, I mean the British, uh, I mean the rest is politics. I've not heard this particular podcast. I'll hear it tonight. Not that you mentioned it after our show. Uh, but it's, uh, curated by two very able British journalists.
Mm-hmm. British writers and journalists of people. And, uh, British has always had a rather distorted position on Kashmir, [00:52:00] you know, uh, partly because of their role in the partition, uh, partly of, uh, to compensate about, uh, what they did in, uh, uh, the Middle East, which was to dispossess the Muslims and create as a heist homeland.
You know, partly because the influence of, uh, uh, Muslims and Pakistanis or elections in labor health consequences in Northern England. It's a very, very complicated reason. Oh, I see. Why, uh, you know, uh, British thinkers of the Labor Sens Labor Party sensibility broadly have been, and even some conservatives have been, shall we say, inclined to give Pakistan the benefit, benefit of the doubt in many things.
Now, it's very clear that as, uh, uh, you say, and as Maia also said, that. There was discontent against the heavy handedness of the Indian state in Kashmir. And uh, particularly, uh, if you look at the uprising, uh, that started in 89 with [00:53:00] the manipulation and fixing of the 1987 elections by IV Gandhi's government.
So there was discontent. There was also discrimination before there was corruption. So the Indian state has less behaved with, uh, less than honorable intentions in Kash. This is documented great length in my book in the Afg Gandhi. Having said that, uh, the insurgency and the protests and the uprising could never have taken the shape it did, had it not mean for Pakistan's total involvement.
And a critical here is 1989. And I would expect those, uh, curators of the rest is, uh, uh, politics to understand the significance of 1989 for them. 19 85 89 is Berlin Wall and end of the Soviet Empire, but it's also the end of the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan and the freeing of hundreds and indeed thousands of Muja moja to come and fight in Kmi.
song: Mm-hmm.
Ramachandra: And not just from Pakistan, but from Chenia and Turkey and Iran. And what happened after 1989, but [00:54:00] two things. One was, uh, there was a much more direct Pakistani involvement. Uh, then s say they said Case in 65 and, uh, explicitly Islamic caste, you know, uh, a jihadist cast, which was not there in the home.
Sheah, who once promoted independence for Kashmir was a completely secular man. Han who started the Jamon Kashmir Liberation Front was a completely secular man. All this changed from the early nineties, and it became much more radicalized than Communalized. And of course, Pakistan was critically involved in many terror attacks.
I mean, 2008, most obviously, but many bomb blasts in different parts of India. So I think this is incontrovertible. So it's incontrovertible that Pakistan has aid supported, funded terror. It's also incontrovertible that the Indian state has made many mistakes in, in, in Kashmir and, uh, both Congress and BJP regimes, you know, the Congress regimes in the past, the BJ regime in the current [00:55:00] context.
I mean, uh, amid sha promised on the floor of the house in August, 2019, that state totally restored as early as possible. Right. It's now almost six years. So it's, it's a very, you know, it's, it is really, um, it's arguable. It's possible, and it's likely that Pakistan's hands are dirtier and bloodier when it comes to Kashmir, but the hands of the Indian government are not entirely clean either, you know?
So I think that's what we should recognize. I'd say one thing in the context of, uh, the PA attack, and my next column is an appear on Saturday, uh, argues this, I'd say that the terror attack in Pakistan, and I have no hesitation in, in, and I have no hesitation in calling it a terror attack and nothing else.
Uh, you know, in some way facilitated from across the border. It poses two sorts of tests. What set of tests is the Indian government un ka what will be our military response? Our political [00:56:00] response will be, uh, you know, have another strike will be stop the indu waters. That is one set of response, which is the Indian States' responsibility, and, uh, I know is within that.
Past to decided I have, I have no locus stand. I, I'm not a gu, I'm not a Raj guru or a, or, you know, expert on war who can advise them. But there's a second set of tests, which is to the Indian people, and particularly in light of the absolute heroism shown by Kashmiris in the light of what happened. Mm-hmm.
And how they rushed to provide AKA to the suffering. The wounded, the dead mosque opened to give refuse to tourist taxi drivers. Buried people. Did not take, I mean there so many dozens of examples documented. Right. The light this, why hasn't the prime minister and the home minister said anything about the way of attacks on Kashmiris in different parts.
Yeah. Yeah. That is really shocking. Is the media standing about on, on that? So as Indians that our main, [00:57:00] as forget what our government does, you know, that's, but as Indians, our moral and human responsibility is to refuse to demonize kashmiris or indeed. You know, Indian Muslims and other parts of India.
Yeah. Yeah. That's what I would say, you know, that that is something which all of us must, you know, uh, yeah. You know, this, uh, that's must be absolutely critically aware. No, absolutely. I think, I mean, you, you like me from ul,
Abhinandan: right?
Ramachandra: And yesterday there was news report about 16 ma being asked to go home before I saw the video.
Has many students in all of that?
Abhinandan: Did, did you see the video? It was really heartbreaking. You know, and you could see that road. We are all familiar with that road. In fact, theones, uh, Manisha is also from, um, so, uh, as Indians we should. And I think that's something I, you know, I think Modi's base is not gonna leave him.
But he never calls for calm. He never calls for stop these attacks on people. One
Ramachandra: state, one statement by him. Stop. And Marissa, nice to know. Yes.
Abhinandan: She's also there. [00:58:00]
Ramachandra: But Maia is right. The only person who has said anything is has Nazi, Nazi even here. He said, yeah, all of us are united irrespective of religion.
You know? So I think, uh, what statement by Modi, given the aura and uh, uh, influencing commands will stop all along, but he never does that. And then
Manisha: that is the anger that feeds back into Kashmir, where people are like, we had a strike for a whole day. We had a bond. We all came out in protest against the attacks.
Where are your protests? When we get attacked?
song: Mm-hmm.
Manisha: Who's standing for us?
Raman: So, no. No. I mean, look at the small, uh, small, uh. You know, incidents al yesterday, one boy, uh, he had an affair or he some problem with, with some,
Abhinandan: yeah, I saw they started beating, they shut down those shops. No,
Raman: they, no, no. They beat up the Muslims.
Who, and they, they have very prominent shops, you know, in Natal, if you go over there, I saw the videos they started and they, they, they beat them up and today the entire place is, uh, closed [00:59:00] and, uh, they are going against the Muslims. So, so they are isolating and, and all these incidents, uh, they have been happening.
And, uh, everybody, uh, the, the Mohi has never spoken about it.
Abhinandan: I mean, I, I don't know how true it is, but just before we started recording, uh, one of the channel was running that Pete Hegseth had a chat with Rajana Singh. Of course, I don't dunno how long Pete Hegseth will be around, because some of the, uh,
Jayashree: did they chat on signal?
Abhinandan: Forget the chat on signal after that, the first one. Then the second one, his wife and lawyer and his brother. And then after that, the way he tried to defend it on an interview, he made a complete as of himself. I mean, so I dunno how relevant Heworth is, but they're saying that America has kind of given its blessings that India can strike back now, I dunno.
Manisha: Oh,
Abhinandan: I, I would not trust a broadcast news. Yeah. Saying that, '
Manisha: cause Trump was very, very, his statement was, oh, they've been fighting a thousand years, 1,500 years. It's so bad. They're both very close to me. He didn't say anything. I mean, the thing that you're saying about the media, why are they not [01:00:00] outrightly calling it terror attack?
Look at Modi's best friend Donald Trump. He did not outrightly say that I'm with India or that we feel bad that they've had to suffer this, whatever, tweeting and all they did. But in his statements he was like, oh, both of them are very good friends of mine. I think there's no, he's very bad.
Raman: What's happening.
I think there's no point. But
Jayashree: it's true that Rajana Singh's office has tweeted saying that the US has clearly said, we support India's right to defend. So. Which is a bit big, big, but that's a
Manisha: normal statement they give every time that we, everyone supports the right to defend. But can you go on the offensive is the question?
No, I
Raman: think there's no point, uh, you know, saying that it's dehumanizing. No, I think it's the new normal.
Abhinandan: Yeah, that's what's unfortunate. Like I was just, things are,
Raman: things are getting legitimized. Everything is getting,
Abhinandan: I was just watching times now, which I think is trying to raise ahead in the contest for how, who can ferment more trouble.
Uh, I, I drum, I'm sure you don't watch these channels. You please write your book so we have something wonderful to read. Yes. But they had run a split screen. On one half of the screen there is a bus driver reading [01:01:00] Namas on the other half of the screen they have those Mollies and all that Hindu ty, which they had asked to remove before an exam or janu.
Now these two are not to, they're not connected to each other. This is some random, you know, instance of a bus driver stopping the bus to of namas. I'll say Namas bus driver often AMA delays all the passengers. But Hindus asked to remove Molly's sick and they're having a fight on that. Like the two instance.
Have nothing to do with it. And today, today, while you know, others are calling for calm, I think times now, I dunno how some of you people who just got married, or maybe you just have a child, maybe you guys have a kind of defensible excuse to do that, but do nothing is worth doing that job. That is just vile.
I mean
song: it,
Jayashree: but the level of, I mean, discourse now is quite upsetting. Like I'm in a couple of groups of people. Like these are people that I do know in a tangential sort of way. And [01:02:00] especially after, um, there were a whole flurry of reports saying, right, people saying that Kashmiris helped us, uh, while they came.
My, my father was killed, but people helped us. The pony wallah helped us and so on. So there are a lot of these manipulated videos that are now being posted and posted by people I know who really, really want to believe in these things that, you know, the pony wallah claimed to have helped, but actually he was laughing in the background.
Here is an AI video of him, like on the phone. He's doing these things. It's just, there is a very concerted effort to push this idea that everyone is in cahoots and it doesn't matter. And you are saying that Mo just have to say one sentence and that would help and could settle.
Abhinandan: Yeah.
Jayashree: Therefore I buy into conspiracy theories that say that it is in the bjps interest to not say anything because no, that's absolutely trues and all that because.
And since somebody else I know, again, all very anecdotal, but I was just like alarmed by it. He's running this, uh, thing called, so 26 victims, right? Mm-hmm. Is it 27 now? 26 victims in, so he's running 26 days of boycott, where every day he will [01:03:00] go into a supermarket, ask them why they're selling halal products, and then he'll post a boycott and he's trying to like, call friends and things.
And this is like in my neighborhood, in fucking, like in Chen. I just really don't understand what he's trying to do against Kmi here. But it's, I'm think people are very happy to believe the worst qualities about Muslims and Kmi right now. And the media is feeding into it. Yeah. Social media is feeding into it and the government is encouraging it.
Raman: In Delhi, NCR, they are identifying Muslim shops, uh, run by Muslims, and they are telling, uh, you know, people, uh, in the, in the WhatsApp groups that don't buy. There's
Manisha: that video. Somebody put sort of this, this guy is just asking an urban clap person that, are you Hindu, a Muslim? And he says, I'm Muslim. He said, go back.
Tell them, tell your company to send a Muslim Hindu. Send a Hindu.[01:04:00]
Jayashree: Yeah. Because they, they want you to post humiliate videos. Like there are, the only thing I, I know this is social media and social media is not real life. And I agree with you, but also I am seeing this in people like in circles that I know, and it is a very, no, of
Abhinandan: course. I mean, it spreads rapidly on social media.
But you know what you said, anecdotal, it's not entirely anecdotal. I, I'm not at liberty to take names, but I, uh, over the weekend was at a dinner where there was a very senior. Person who has served in Kashmir in a very important position, uh, as part of the government's administration. Uh, and he was there, you know, for a long time, pre three 70, uh, abrogation.
And he was, and he's been there for like over a decade in, in two stints. Uh, and he said, the thing is that there's never been complete peace in [01:05:00] Kashmir, but I was asking, dude, I've shot there highway on my plate. And it's not like we would, we used to have huge cameras. We were already shooting all over the place.
Mm-hmm. We know, he said the brief time where there's been some semblance is when we have tried to integrate the local community, whether it is, integrate them in the forces, do local recruitments do basically. And he says there will be some people who will become MOS or whatever, but cost benefit analysis.
That'll work. Yeah. He says, the problem is this government, especially the leadership doesn't understand. Yeah. You cannot say We will have peace there, but we'll not trust a single Muslim. Yeah. They have no interest in integrating the law. No. At all. They want Kashmir without the Kashmirs. Yes. And one of the boys, and he was just a regular Shakara.
His a Kashmir in Kir. And that is the actual difference. I, I think he hit the nail on the head and he says, I can tell you from having been there for over a decade, that you cannot have peace there unless you have peace with them. They may not always agree with you, but you [01:06:00] have to make friends with them.
Yes. And these guys are not interested in making friends with them,
Manisha: but most people who are fighting insurgency would say exactly this, that this is not in our interest. The kind of violence that we are seeing in mainland India. It really makes our job difficult here because that completely alienates the locals.
And if every work that we are doing it completely under, you know, it's completely an undoing, uh. One thing I wanted to add was that in the first two days in the aftermath of Pega, the one thing that really actually gave me a lot of hope was there was not a single victim who was not talking about Yeah.
You know, people who had lost their husbands or sons or fathers. They were ma they were making it a point to say how they were helped by the locals. They were underscoring that point, despite having gone through such shock and trauma. Yeah. Now it was our job to amplify that it's the job of the mainstream media, and that they did not do, had they done that, it would've made such a difference, you know?
Abhinandan: Yeah. Right. But on Kashmir Ram, before I have a final question as a historian to [01:07:00] you, anything you wanna add?
Ramachandra: No, I, I mean, this is, um, something which, uh, you know, I said beyond what I've said, and, uh, as Mana said, I mean, when my column, uh, day after talks about some of these in instances, and as she said, I mean, mana said, this is what should be amplified by the, by the mainstream media.
I mean, it's, uh, now, uh, yeah. When it
Abhinandan: comes to historians, you know, uh, I was having a discussion on this. WhatsApp group I'm on, and the writing of history as a political act. And you know, I said, of course any history is political because unless you're talking about natural history, it's political history.
There is no other third kind of history. I, I dunno, maybe there is, but, uh, because it is a political act and they were saying, but all the historians in India have been so it's been liberal dominated by liberals. There's been no other. I said, well, if the counter view is people like Dina Na Batra, who I interviewed, you know, he's passed on now, but he was an advisor in the Ana, you know, government.
And [01:08:00] when I interviewed Dimi was telling me that if you have one glass of water and you curse it. The crystals that are formed are ugly. And if you have another glass of water and you recite the Gita, whatever, then it has lovely crystals. I mean, I was like, this guy, if he's your answer to let's say Roman Raha, then why should we be take them seriously?
I mean, it's like saying I want to play as well as messy, but I don't wanna practice football. So let's just break his legs, not allow him to run and say, okay, now I'm good. As good now. So that's a good analogy. That's a good analogy. So I said, okay, don't agree with Rome, don't agree with Ram, but show me why not?
Because if you talk nicely to one crystal and talk badly to another crystal, the Gita listening water has good crystal. I mean like, and you cannot make this guy an advisor to government to set syllabus for children. Then you'll have a country of morons who will say, you know, rub kung and nuclear blasts will you, will be protected.
So when it comes to writing history, the world over histo water, in [01:09:00] your view, some good. Counter narratives of history of the subcontinent, maybe other areas have you come across, uh, you know, like your, you were talking about this friend who disagreed with, but historians who are considered public intellectuals of equal intellectual heft who have kind of wrestled with the narrative and what has emerged from that, whether it's in this country or anywhere else.
Manisha: Yeah, some suggestions on conservative.
Abhinandan: Yeah, I mean, I wrote a
Ramachandra: long essay 10 years ago in Caravan, which was reprinted in my collection, Democrats and Disin dissenters. Which, uh, it, it bought the title. Why are there no conservative intellectuals in India? And I said that other countries, uh, you know, France, Britain, Germany, United States, there's some very credible conservative intellectuals.
You've done deep research. Aboriginal ideas don't have to have their books when they publish their books don't have to have it. Them photographed with Trump as our [01:10:00] socalled, right wing intellectuals do with Modi.
song: Mm-hmm.
Ramachandra: Uh, and India once had that tradition. You know, so we did have, in the colonial period some outstanding non-liberal conservative historians.
Ja, as now they've gone, they've gone because the RSS is completely anti-intellectual. You know, you could beat the RA party and then by Raji and, uh, have space for ideas and debate research. But if your icon is, you know, uh, Ms. Gold Walker or uh, uh, you know, or, or, or our home minister or a Prime Minister, it'll only be, you know, uh, there's no depth of, uh, subtlety, uh, in what, what you say.
So it is, I mean, I, we do need, I mean, it's, we do need very high quality writing intellectuals and maybe they'll come, maybe they'll come, you know, we'll present a carefully research, soberly argued indi, demand and Minded. Conservative position, you know, on why family is important. Community is [01:11:00] important.
Why, you know, uh, liberalism leads to extreme, um, work, ideology, individualism, whatever, you know, promis, which they, they are arguments that conservatives can make and they're made in other context as I talk in this essay. But I mean, RS you know, one thing I say, by the way, and this, this may not have come to your notice or to many of your viewers, these debates about history and, you know, demonizing liberal and left wing intellectuals are now widely covered, but there's a far more insidious attack on intellectual life in India orchestrated by the RSS, and that is undermining a high quality, uh, centers of scientific education.
Mm-hmm. For the first time today, uh, directors of IIT, uh, I know are appointed.
song: Yeah.
Ramachandra: By, uh, you know, are you basically the a Vito who can become director who.
song: But
Ramachandra: even at these emergency, you didn't have that. Hmm. And [01:12:00] all through, uh, the congress regimes of the past, the interfered who was Vice, vice Chancellor of JU, because they may have wanted a relatively same guy.
But not who's director in digital science, who's director of the National Chemical Laboratory. I mean, our ITT is now eight appointed to a hel up last year because, you know, uh, every ministry now has a SGI who's, you know, there supervising who's kosher and who's not. And so, you know, history in that respect, of course, it does lead to the poisoning of minds or the liberating of minds.
I mean, it is important, but science and technology are much more important to our future. And that's where these guys are, you know, are killing our best institutions. Hmm.
Abhinandan: Well, there was a article day before yesterday that there is a, some research that is being done on can Haans lead to cloud seeding
Ramachandra: scientist.
And, you know, you know, you know what happens is that, [01:13:00] uh. Ambitious scientists, uh, get the mood. So they start saying, you know, like, the director of IT Monday will start saying, I want all my students to be vegetarian. If they're vegetarian, climate change will be, you know, combated and so on. So this is really, this is really creepy and dangerous.
Abhinandan: No, but you know, just to your point, um, I, I've mentioned this earlier. I met someone who is a prominent voice of the right. Uh, and this person often appears on panels. I've known this person for a very long time before the mo, the era, and the kind of person things this person says, I know they don't believe this.
So I met them and I said, uh, what's wrong with you? I know you are not this crazy. We disagree with a lot of about politically, but, uh, the response was that if you want, see, I'm not employable as a quote unquote intellectual unless I go that far. I get [01:14:00] no patronage and without patronage, I mean relevant. I have no source of income.
I have no junket to go to. I'm not sent as an Indian representative here. I'm not sent to such and such place. So you have to go that far. If you are the reasonable right voice, no one's gonna d you any Donna. 'cause someone is going that far and getting, so it's, it's about getting patroned and just what, you know, scientists, ambitious scientists will put certain projects aside and say, okay, I will let me start researching is, you know, cow lungs are inhaling in.
You're playing the
Jayashree: game for as long as you need to, not to. Yeah.
Abhinandan: So that's what happens. It kill it, it incentivizes stupidity.
Raman: Sure.
Abhinandan: Uh, on that note, thank you so much Ram, for giving us over an hour. I really appreciate it. Uh, do enjoy the weather in Kur. Uh, but before we say goodbye, do recommend something that you think could enrich the lives of our viewers and listeners.
Ramachandra: So I, you know, uh, I, when I was young and in my twenties and thirties, I would read a lot of fiction and then I stopped reading fiction. And during [01:15:00] the Pandemic Pandemic I commenced and I've read about three books that I've read in the last two or three years, uh, which I'm truly grateful to have had the time to read.
Before I exit this up, there are three epic novels, uh, set in three different continents. Uh, Leo Tolstoy is War and Peace. Mm-hmm. George Elliot's Middle March, and, uh, Thomas Mans Buden Brooks. And what they tell you about society, culture, economy, politics, gender, religion in three great countries, you know, uh, Russia, England, and uh, uh, Germany, respectively.
You know, they're very enrich my understanding. You know, I read also contemporary fiction. I've started reading more modern novelists. So, uh, I'd say, uh, you, uh, the kind of nourishment and, uh. Uh, you know, inside and intelligence, a really high quality novel can give you no work of history. Can you know? So I'm absolutely no doubt [01:16:00] about that.
You know, uh, uh, not, uh, clearly I value my books, uh, more than a Milton Boon or some kind of boiler published under the auspices of, but when you read Toto or George Elliot, Thomas Mann, you know, not only do you know that they have a. Richer, deeper insight into human character. They unveil for you a whole world, you know?
Mm-hmm. Uh, which it's a real privilege to enter. So I'd say read more high quality fiction and you'll, uh, maybe not become a better human being, but a better informed human being.
Abhinandan: Right. Thank you so much, RA. Great.
Manisha: Thank you so much.
Abhinandan: I'll also send you a podcast since you like Thomas man so much. It's a podcast radio open source about Thomas man.
It's called Man The Magician. And it, I just learned so much about this man through this podcast. You will enjoy it. I will send you a link, and thank you. Really appreciate your time. Thank you.
Raman: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you
song: everyone. Bye bye. [01:17:00]
Abhinandan: And now for the emails. If you're a subscriber, you can tell us what you think, what we can do differently.
You can mail us@podcastsatnews.com, or click on the link in the show notes below. Please keep your letter below less than one 50 words. You know, we have a new system. Now it's been the fourth week of the new system. You can go and listen to the old tta, know what that system is, but all letters will be read, acknowledged, addressed.
But this episode, just four or five, and I think this episode, it's been curated by Jeffrey. This me, oh, Manisha. Oh, go ahead, please. Okay,
Manisha: so first up in this episode, we'll be reading out the letters. We'll be reading out five letters, but we also receive letters from. Which we will read out in the half letters episode next week.
We have planned to do this and I think we have some like 200 letters to read next week. Many letters.
song: Okay,
Manisha: so the first letters from Kazu Mima. She, she or he, I'm not very sure, [01:18:00] says the last few days have been unnerving after what happened in Kashmir with even the society WhatsApp groups being full of Islamophobic hate.
Not sure what's the future of this country until BGP dominates every, most of communication media, be it social, WhatsApp, or any other, the blood hungry nature of some of the seemingly civilized people did come as a surprise sharing some of the messages I came across.
Like she's reading out, I guess. Yeah. Know what they've read on WhatsApp, but
Hindu, her painter, Muslim, her maid, everywhere. 'cause we are secular also. She says, shout out to Charul, my fellow Tedo. What is Tein?
Abhinandan: It's a game.
Manisha: Game. I owe you the name. The name she's using is from
Jayashree: Tein. Kazu. Mima.
Manisha: Oh, I see. Ah, okay. I owe you a pint my friend. So [01:19:00] it's a, it's a female character. Kazu Mishima?
No, I think Ka is a man. Okay. So yeah, I know Raman was also telling us about all the WhatsApp stuff that's been happening in his locality. It's been quite aggressive and bad. Luckily I'm not part of any WhatsApp. I just
Raman: made an exit. No,
Jayashree: I stay in the one WhatsApp group because I like to keep an eye on what my are doing.
No, I doing
Raman: also, I also thought the same, you know, I, I became too toxic. It's so toxic. You can't take it. Yeah. It's affecting me. It's affecting my, I
Manisha: just read a really funny, can I just read out two lines for really funny WhatsApp group that I got, which was really funny. Operation Screaming Thunder, India deploys Its Deadliest Arsenal TV anchors.
song: Mm-hmm.
Manisha: Following Alga attack, India has unleashed its most feared and ferocious combat force. The TV studio Rapid Action. Rapid Reaction Force leading the charges. None other in FRA General Sami, GOC, Northern Command Republic Headquarter, who's shouting orders and rhetorical missile straight from his fortified Mumbai bunker.
Also known as Studio five War Room. Military grade microphones have been deployed and [01:20:00] sound levels have exceeded Geneva Convention limits of Elite 17 Mountain strike call. It is flanking him from NoDa forward operating base. She's operating cutting edge equipment, 4K graphics, 3D animation, and a battalion of panelists per minute.
Strategic doctrine. Shout first. Be theatrical. It's really funny, the whole thing. Did you write this and send it on your
Jayashree: group?
Manisha: Uh, writing it? My, no, no, I got it from someone. We got it. I, it's by somebody called ing, actually, who runs something called Rose Naja. Okay. Uh, anonymous says The problem with India in general is that the anti hate party just doesn't exist.
Just doesn't exist. It doesn't appear that everyone has realized that the way to win votes is by dividing, and hence, they keep their traps shut when the BGP and its minions go on a rampage online and in the media against Muslims or any minority. The time we are in right now where being a Muslim at this moment is horribly scary.
No. Raul Gandhi. Al or Manta, Banerjee or [01:21:00] anyone else have not even remotely tried to lower the temperature in the country. I honestly feel bad for the Muslim population in our country where I see the level of hate that's becoming mainstream and the helplessness of people who know there's nobody that'll come that will come to help them if they raise their voices against it.
song: Mm-hmm.
Jayashree: I thought one of the lucky, quite
Manisha: a good speech. Yeah. You have a good speech, please. Avie says Hi. Hope you're all well, huge fan of your work and the incredible journalism you all do. I was wondering if you were planning to invite a Pakistani journalist, thinker, academic to discuss the attack in Pegram, the Pakistani perspective reaction, as well as Kashmir academics voices.
Right.
Raman: They'll
Abhinandan: be Pakistani.
Manisha: Pakistani say the sensible ones at least. Yeah, of course. The thing
Abhinandan: is that if only a Beal can have Pakistani guests, if anybody else has Pakistani UP, but other than that's it. I would've happily even got it. It's not possible to have a discussion because, uh, even on that [01:22:00] side, it's, it'll, it'll end up being, uh, either really, really shallow or it'll end up being, because there is a tendency of, I think it's a subcontinent thing, the dispassionate way in which I edit, uh, I interviewed the editor of Habits, Harts Hart,
Manisha: BBC,
Abhinandan: the Israeli newspaper,
Jayashree: ah, Hart,
Abhinandan: you know, the Dispa way with which he can dissect his own country.
I genuinely think even the most evolved voices in India or Pakistan won't be able to do it, won't be able to do it. And there are, you know, complex sociological reasons for that, which is why I don't think there's any value. But at
Manisha: Hartz, that's a good example, right? When they started the offensive on Gaza, they was so critical, dude.
The kind of stuff that she, and it was such a horrible, I mean, it was such a horrible massacre that it happened, but he was very. The paper was very steadfast. And of course the
Abhinandan: battle here is not that one-sided or that violent, but I don't believe any Indian public, intellectual, or Pakistani public intellectual [01:23:00] can so dispassionately talk about what's happening.
It's just not possible.
Jayashree: Do you think it's also because they feel like this need to be a little performative for the Indian or the Pakistani audience, that you cannot be dispassionate about it? You should very consistently try and reiterate No, you know, but I still think X and Y and I don't know, I, it never feels like you're organically just speaking in their authentic way.
It just feels like we are performing for the audience, which requires us to say certain things. No, this is India. Pakistan.
Abhinandan: No. I'll tell you why I think it is. It's because I, and this, I genuinely believe we cannot not call the people who have killed either the tourists last month in last week, all the killings earlier.
We cannot call them terrorists, in my view, and I don't think I'm pandering to any nationalist fervor. I genuinely think you cannot call them terrorists. Now, for whatever reasons, even the [01:24:00] most, in in their terms, the most liberal or the most non nationalistic, public intellectual can call them terrorists.
On that only the talk will break down. Got it. I mean, I've spoken to so many people who's,
Manisha: but they won't say Pakistan. They'll say, ha, terrorism is bad. We don't support it. Yeah.
Abhinandan: But they will say this, these are all freedom fighters in your own country. They're calling them militants. They'll not call them terrorists.
It is. So you see, it's just, I don't, I don't see any value add with the Pakistani voice in this discussion.
Raman: And even, even the journalists based in kmi, they are sending us, uh, you know, the idea, the fear, no. They also have a fear. They can't,
Abhinandan: they can't speak up, call them terrorists, call them ants if the moment they will call them terrorists.
So that it's just, yeah, the fear is too much.
Manisha: So Abijit says, I was in Al when Helga happened. The sentiment, there was that of sympathy for the locals season. Kara Hoka, [01:25:00] they said, the sympathy I find missing from all public discussions, the immediate and catastrophic impact it would bring to Kash. Music's economy isn't highlighted by the media or acknowledged by the people in power.
We must remember that there are people whose livelihoods depended on the season and who are invested in this. Zero tourism would mean small businesses going bankrupt, job losses, migration, and people pushed under the poverty line. They would need support. I hope once a boiling blood calms down, we are able to spare a thought for them.
Of course, only after we have annihilated Pakistan for now. As with all discussions on Kashmir, the plight of the Kashmiri is missing actually. All of this, the nicer, the kinder, and the most s voices have just been ordinary people. Like you just met someone who said Baja. We say people who were traveling in Kashmir, and it's really sad that you haven't found that in mainstream politics in the media, which you look up to.
Usually it should be the other way. The public's going mad and we inject calmness, [01:26:00] insanity. Public is injecting, public is appealing on news channels that please don't do this. They says, hi, NLT. My partner introduced me to news, laundry and the world of independent journalism. A much needed breath of fresh air.
When mainstream media often misrepresents ground realities, life feels a lot more informed sense. A small suggestion, consider as being a citizens journalist page where users can upload and share verified stories or images. It could drive more engagement. You're all doing a fantastic job. I absolutely love HTA and TNM and TNTN, nuisance.
Oh, I was like, thanks we never miss an episode. Thank you for staying true to your mission and continuing to empower the public with honest journalism. Thank you so much. Thank you. And thank you to your partner for introducing you to the world of independent media. The pan says hello. The discussion about Bengal is interesting, adding some nuance.
Bengal has a diverse [01:27:00] population, 25% Muslims, 25% SCST, 13% non Bengali origin, and a couple of 11 1% Nepali. The Muslims are with TMC and the 13% with non Bengal origin go with the BGP. The is a neglected seg segment. The Bengal caste system is socially inclusive, but economically exclusive. BJP worked hard to sway the matua who needed citizenship and the ra she of neglected North Bengal, who are also commander.
The shul cast, uh, category and Nepali vote is for the BJP to help statehood. For the Gour land, the forward caste vote among Bengali Hindus is still significantly with TMC as the Bjps policy are seen as culture war. This excludes a few, which see mata as an serpo, but they gravitate to the left of the Congress.
B GB wants to break by taking over nda, Orbin, Bo and others.
Raman: Hmm.
Manisha: Kay.
Raman: Very. And Deri has
Manisha: had like these ads pre, yesterday [01:28:00] was most interesting. It's her Ram movement. Actually before elections.
Abhinandan: This temple, reading this
Manisha: big temple there, junar Temple.
Abhinandan: But
Jayashree: you saw all the reportage on that big error that has was in the ad?
No. What? What? Here's a picture from Google Maps, I think, to show where it'll be. But unfortunately, one of the locations marked on that Google Map screenshot said Female vibrators in digger and that was printed in the world. No way.
Abhinandan: Are you sure this is not some. WhatsApp hoax. You fallen phone. I
Jayashree: completely missed this.
I saw a news report
Raman: only Joshua can give us.
Jayashree: Dude, this is so
Raman: funny. Yeah,
Abhinandan: fantastic. I just, yeah, so this got
Jayashree: printed in the ad. Yeah. Yeah. So,
Abhinandan: but I guess you have to really blow it up to read it, I'm guessing.
Jayashree: Yeah, you'd never see it, but you
Abhinandan: know it is there. Yeah. But someone must have noticed it now. Okay, fantastic.
Manisha: How nutty is this?
Abhinandan: Right,
Manisha: that's it for emails and now [01:29:00] we have many, many letters, which she, we shall tackle next week.
Abhinandan: Next week we'll be, we, we have too
Manisha: many, we really have to figure out, we'll do a
Abhinandan: one and a half hour of just letters,
Manisha: but we have to also then arrange them in a way, which is all topics on the ones
Abhinandan: that are one 50 words.
They just have be compressed. But
Manisha: also like some of them are, you know, one topic. So we'll have to like, yeah.
Abhinandan: That tackle all of them together. I'm sure our producer will find some young interns to be able to do that
Manisha: on Mayday.
Abhinandan: So let's get the recommendations. Yeshi wanna go first?
Jayashree: Um, yeah. I have two recommendations.
One is Vanity Fair's. Very entertaining profile of Gavin Mackins. So he is the founder of Proud Boys, which is that far right group in America. Yeah. But his story is very interesting. He was born in Scotland, he immigrated to Canada and there he was the OG hipster. He used to play in a punk band. He joined socially conscious groups 'cause they were very cool.
At the age of 24, he co-founded Vice, um, then he left Vice. He lost a bunch of friends and family members. He lost a stake in Vice. He lost [01:30:00] friends, he lost a lot of brain cells and somehow he set up Proud Boys. So it's an interesting our journey also because you feel like we could be this man except that we are not.
Thank God. So that's one. The second, um, which I think is a very topical story for Press Freedom Day is by the reporters collector. It's called What Killed ra. So basically the story of the journalist who was murdered a few months ago, and it's told by three journalists who also knew him. And it tells two stories.
One is who was Mukesh and how did he come to die? And the other is about this underbelly of contracts, kickbacks and corruption in, and the villagers and everyday people who suffer through it. So MOH had reported on it and it was the trigger for his murder. So I thought it was very interesting. It was also, I don't know if it's the greatest piece of reporting I've written or anything like that, but just that it was so lovingly told.
I mean, it really tries to paint this picture of this man, the sitting that he, the setting that he lived in, the district that he worked in. And you really feel for the [01:31:00] authors of the story, you really feel for these really small town journalists. So I think it's very important.
Abhinandan: Right. Thank you Manisha.
Manisha: So, uh, really, really.
Deeply richly reported pace on the report's collective, since it is Presum Day, it's about the death of Kar. Uh, that's the story. I just, yeah. What killed Kar Malman and Akre, uh, the same recommendation as yours. Ri it's really, and also support reporters collective. I think, uh, very few organizations are able to, you know, report in such a sustained way and each of the stories are investigative in some way or the other.
It's very hard to kind of sustain and manage. So kudos to reporters collective for this piece. Uh, the piece that I had spoken about. On, um, the journalist from up, this was by ishka, was about two years ago. But I think it's important to revisit it just to see what it [01:32:00] takes to be a journalist in small town India.
What it extracts out of you. And sometimes it's not even the governments that get you or the police that puts you in jail, it's just your own inability to take care of you after having devoted such a long time to the profession that you love. Mm-hmm. So I think that piece really brings that out very well.
Abhinandan: Ram. Sir,
Raman: I have two recommendations, but nothing about the media. There's one book of course. Uh, you know, we. Are planning to make a documentary on it. So I read The Truth Pill. This is by, uh, the Tako and per, uh, the book is really amazing. I mean, when it comes to the facts, so many facts about how the drugs, uh, get regulated, uh, in India especially, I would like to draw, you know, your attention towards the are, uh, drugs and ministry of are, and we plan to make a documentary on that.[01:33:00]
So The Truth Bill by the, and Prakash. And, uh, second is, uh, a couple of podcasts. Uh. With the same person. This, uh, this is anybody. I mean, people have appreciated. You know, I had once referred, uh, one Health Podcast by Huberman with Casey means. Mm. So this is, uh, another podcast by Huberman with Stewart McGill.
Uh, he's an authority on your back. So I think at this age, I have come to know how to stand, how to drive, how to, because every I was facing this problem. So I, I get all kind of tests done. With reputed hospitals spending 28,000 rupees just on the test, and they never tell you what is wrong with you, [01:34:00] how you should stand.
I think I've learned standing yesterday. It's only, and
Abhinandan: driving
Raman: and
Abhinandan: sitting and
Raman: Soha Stewart walking and Mag, uh, Stewart. Stewart Magill with Homan. And there is another, uh, you know, uh, doctor Peter Atia. So he has given his podcast with Peter Atia also, uh, once you see his, uh, you know, uh, podcasts, you can read his book as well.
Abhinandan: Right? I have two recommendations. One is on this whole TikTok scandal that got an election canceled. It is a, the story of the tiktoks who made this whole thing happen. It's a BBC report called the tiktoks Accused of triggering an election scandal. It's a fascinating piece. I highly recommend it. And the second is.
It's an NPR podcast. When do boycotts work? Recently, basically target was, there was a boycott, um, because its decision to pull back on its DEI [01:35:00] policies. So it goes over all the times. A brand has been boycotted for political reasons. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. So they've tried to identify what makes a boycott work interesting in times we live in, right?
I'd like to thank all of you, have a fantastic week. Remember, it's press freedom day. It's a very important day. It is a day that should mean a lot to everybody, not just to news organizations. I have told you why often enough. So do buy that subscription for a friend, a relative, a family member, anyone you think will eventually appreciate.
Journalism like Mr. Guha said, that is not funded by large corporations or governments. It's important. I thank a wonderful, uh, sound recordist, Anil wonderful, uh, producer Pali. And, uh, Ashish is also around, I'm guessing he's also producing. Uh, and, uh, thank you Ramal. Thank you. Thank you Je. [01:36:00] Thank you Manisha.
Thank you. Leave you with this song. Remember? Together we can, and together we will keep media independent.
song: IP
today.[01:37:00]
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