Guardian EU debate - Summary
- Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader, suggested that Britain should have a Norway-style relationship with the EU if it left. Last week Boris Johnson, another prominent Leave campaigner, suggested that the Canada model would be better. Norway has access to the single market, but has to follow EU regulations; Canada just has a free trade deal. Nick Clegg, the former Lib Dem leader, said the Norwegian prime minister, Erna Soldberg, has said this would be wrong for the UK. But Farage said that she and Clegg were just members of an elite class that had betrayed their voters. He said Norway was rich, happy and successful.
- Alan Johnson, the chair of Labour In for Britain, said the Scots could be justified in wanting to leave the UK in the event of Britain voting to leave the EU if there was a heavy vote in Scotland against such a decision. But Farage said the idea of Scotland voting for independence was now “for the birds” because of the collapse in oil prices.
- Farage said staying in the EU would mean Britain going into union with Turkey and “77m even poorer people”. But Clegg said he did not think Turkey would join the EU within the next 10 years.
- Clegg accused Farage of making “dishonest” claims about the threat posed by immigration. He said Ukip warnings were based on a “a totally false assumption that if, we leave the EU, people will not continue to try to flee war attrition and hunger and come to the UK”. He added: “It is so dishonest to somehow claim that if we leave the EU, that problem will go away. It is deeply, deeply dishonest.”
- Farage described Barack Obama as “the most anti-British president America has ever had”. Andrea Leadsom, the Conservative energy minister, dismissed Obama’s recent warnings about the dangers of Brexit, saying only “a couple” of Americans were making this point. Clegg prompted loud laughter when he pointed out in response that Obama was president, not just “Joe Bloggs from Cleveland”.
- Clegg described the story about the Queen backing Brexit at a lunch he attended is “A-grade, 24-carat bilge”.
- Farage said the EU was “hellbent on building a European army, navy and air forces as quickly as possibly.” And he claimed Clegg had lied about this when they debated in 2014.
- Farage said the EU had “provoked” Russia into annexing Crimea. Clegg said Farage was indulging in “conspiracy theories”
- Farage claimed that under-30s were leading “the rebellion against Brussels” on the continent.
That’s all from me for tonight.
Thanks for the comments.
Updated
Guardian EU debate - Snap verdict
Anyone who thought the EU referendum campaign was going to be dull will have to revise their thinking after that event. It was lively and raucous, mostly in a good way. By comparison, the general election debates were rather turgid.
But who won?
Judging by the reception in the auditorium, no one. The people who came to listen seemed for the most part engaged and committed (from both the Leave camp and the Remain camp) and at no point did one get a sense of minds being changed. At the end, when Anushka Asthana asked if anyone had been persuaded to rethink by what they had heard, hardly any hands went up.
Yet it is probably the Remain camp that has more to worry about from what went on here tonight. Over the last three weeks, in speeches and interviews, David Cameron has made a calm and coherent case for remaining in the EU, while his opponents have fought for Brexit with turbo-charged press backing but a lot less consistency and discipline. Cameron has been winning the argument.
But tonight Nigel Farage was setting the agenda. He started with a striking soundbite, about Britain being more than just “a star on somebody else’s flag”, and then time and again he was able to press emotive buttons, for example on Turkey, on Labour and the working class, on Eurocrats and even on Scotland (where he was withering about the prospect of it ever voting for independence with the oil price so low). He even managed to brush aside the perfectly sound argument about a Norway-style trade deal not being in the UK’s interest with a rather good riff about the delights of Scandinavia. If anyone on the platform was going to sway undecided voters, it was probably him.
In many ways it did turn out to be a Farage/Clegg rematch because the most effective opposition to Farage came from the former deputy prime minister. Nick Clegg was sharp and punchy, and he had a terrific moment when he mocked Farage for what he had said about Obama and Russia, and for his faith in “conspiracy theories. Alan Johnson delivered at least one excellent put-down to Farage too, when he ridiculed the idea that Ukip wanted to exclude EU migrants from the UK so that they could let in more Indians. But Clegg and Johnson were more often than not in reactive mode; Farage was setting the agenda.
Leadsom probably made the least impact on the debate. She was less shouty than the men, which had its advantages, and was good on technicalities like banking, but towards the end she said at least two preposterous things (about the Tories not being at war, and a Polish immigrant thinking the UK was totalitarian) that damaged her standing.
Updated
And that’s it.
Anushka asks if anyone has been persuaded by what they have heard tonight. I see about three hands go up.
Anushka says the referendum would make a great subject for a play.
And that’s it.
I’ll post a snap verdict and a summary soon.
Alan Johnson says, if Britain leaves the EU, the French would stop Calais border checks
Johnson says, if Britain leaves the EU, the French would tear up the deal that allows border checks at Calais.
Leadsom says she does not accept that.
Johnson says he is just quoting what Leadsom’s party leader says. He agrees with David Cameron.
Farage says there would not be asylum camps in Kent. They would disperse before you could say “Jack Robinson”.
Updated
Farage says the EU needs offshore processing centres for refugees.
Farage says under-30s are leading the revolt against Brussels in Europe
Farage says that across the continent, the new Eurosceptic movement is dominated by the under-30s. He accepts that the UK is not like that, but he suggests it is moving that way.
The rebellion against Brussels is coming from the young.
Updated
Johnson says Labour tried to change the bill so that 16- and 17-year-olds could vote.
He says he is worried about how to get people to turn out. In Ireland, during the gay marriage referendum, they ran a “tell your granny” campaign to get young people to persuade their grandparents to back gay marriage. He suggests teenagers should play the same role in this campaign.
Updated
Clegg says the story about the Queen backing Brexit at a lunch he attended is “A-grade, 24-carat bilge”.
He says the idea that he would give the Queen a sermon on the EU is ridiculous.
People will probably say that is a non-denial denial. But they said that the last time he said the story was rubbish.
He says the Queen clearly does not want to be involved. She wants be left out of this.
Updated
Johnson says many people have changed their minds since 1975.
He says there is no progressive argument for leaving the EU.
If we left, the rest of Europe would negotiate TTIP. And Britain would still be affected by it.
Leadsom says she read an interview recently with a Polish lawyer who said that Britain now reminded her of totalitarian Europe because of the influence of the EU.
This provokes jeers.
Leadsom provokes quite a lot of derision when she says the referendum has not involved blue-on-blue attacks.
Updated
(I have inserted several good video clips into earlier posts, where they happened chronologically. You may need to refresh the blog to get them to show up.)
Farage says EU provoked Russia to attack Ukraine
Johnson says President Putin would love Britain to leave the EU.
Farage says Nato has been a successful alliance at dealing with threats.
But the EU, by expanding its alliance to take in Ukraine, provoked to Russia to invade.
- Farage says EU provoked Russia to attack Ukraine.
Clegg says, having attacked Obama as anti-British, Farage is now claiming that the EU was to blame for Russia invading Crimea. It is an absurd “conspiracy theory”, he says.
Farage says Norway is rich, happy and successful - and worth following
Farage says Clegg is telling a pack of lies about Norway.
How dreadful would be it be be like Norway, he asks. Rich and happy and successful?
- Farage says Norway is rich, happy and successful - and worth following.
He says politicians try to pretend that they are responsible for making trade happen. They are not. It is driven by consumers wanting to buy things.
So why does the Norwegian prime minister say the UK should not leave the EU?
Farage says the Norwegians were betrayed by their political class, just as Britons have been.
Updated
Leadsom says Clegg’s view of the UK makes it seem like a prisoner, afraid to go out when someone opens the cell door.
The Telegraph’s Kate McCann has a confession.
Loving punchy Nick Clegg being back on the scene #Confession #GuardianLive
— Kate McCann (@KateEMcCann) March 15, 2016
MY FEED IS DOWN #GuardianLive ... I've clearly jinxed it with my Nick Clegg confession.
— Kate McCann (@KateEMcCann) March 15, 2016
Ukip have tweeted this to back up Farage’s point.
The EU wants an European army and that's a fact @nick_clegg https://t.co/qxiZ1JcIjx #GuardianLive
— UKIP (@UKIP) March 15, 2016
Farage says Obama has been most anti-British American president ever
Clegg says those in favour of Brexit are often Atlanticists.
But leaving the EU would be a “body blow” to our relationship with the US.
- Clegg says leaving the EU would be a “body blow” to our relationship with the US.
Leadsom says it is just “a couple” of Americans saying this.
Clegg says he is talking about President Obama. He is not just “Joe Bloggs from Cleveland”.
This gets the biggest cheer of the night.
Farage comes in on Leadsom’s side. He says Obama is the most anti-British president there have been.
- Farage says Obama is most anti-British president America has ever had.
He says he warned about the EU wanting an army two years ago. Now that is happening.
As Clegg challenges this, Farage accuses him of lying.
Updated
Farage says idea of Brexit leading to Scottish independence is 'for the birds'
Q: If leaving the EU leads to Scotland leaving the UK, would that be a price worth paying?
Farage says the number of people wanting to leave in Scotland is coming up to the level in England.
And he says the idea that Scotland would vote for independence is “for the birds” because the oil price has collapsed.
- Farage says idea of Brexit leading to Scottish independence is ‘for the birds’.
Johnson says it is “highly likely” that leaving the EU would lead to Scotland voting to leave the UK. He says he favours the Union, but he says if Scotland was heavily in favour of In, and the UK voted out, he would be having second thoughts about staying in the UK.
Leadsom says it is not credible that Scotland would vote for a second referendum. People in the audience shout “rubbish”.
Clegg says the SNP say they would have a second referendum. We should listen to that.
Updated
Here is James McGrory from Britain Stronger in Europe.
Farage cannot answer the question on what Out looks like. Goes back to Switzerland. They accept free movement.
— James McGrory (@JamesMcGrory) March 15, 2016
Clegg to Farage: "Isolation doesn't make you stronger." #GuardianLive
— James McGrory (@JamesMcGrory) March 15, 2016
(I have been beefing up some of the earlier posts with more material. You may have to refresh the page to see the new material.)
Farage says he wants to let more skilled workers in from outside the EU.
But Johnson says anyone who thinks Farage wants to leave the EU so that he can let in more Indians is deluded.
Updated
Anushka asks Farage what would happen to Romanians and Bulgarians if Britain left.
Farage says people did not believe him when he predicted high immigration from Bulgaria and Romania, but he was proved right.
But he says he is not proposing anything that would affect people who are already here legally..
Updated
Farage says Labour's EU migrant policy 'betrayed the working class'
Johnson says the Tories took Britain out of the social chapter, thus limiting workers’ rights.
Leadsom says social chapter rules have led to workers being laid off after 11 weeks, so they do not qualify for employment rights.
Farage says Labour opened Britain up to EU migrants from eastern Europe. It “betrayed the working class”
Clegg says the issue facing countries today is how they can protect its citizens without working with other countries. Working together keeps us safer and stronger and fairer, he says.
Johnson says the EU can be a force for stopping worker exploitation.
But Ukip have had a go at him on Twitter.
Alan Johnson refuses to answer the basic question, how can Labour support keeping wages and conditions down via mass unskilled migration
— UKIP (@UKIP) March 15, 2016
Updated
Alan Johnson challenges Leadsom to give an example of where the EU has imposed a law on us against our will.
On banking, Leadsom says. She was City minister she says. The UK wanted tougher capital requirements for banks, but the EU opposed this.
Andrea Leadsom says the UK’s influence in the EU is diminishing.
And migration and the Eurozone crisis are pushing the EU towards further union.
We simply cannot stay part of it.
Q: So you are not convinced by the prime minister’s reforms?
He tried hard and bust a gut, she says.
(“Ah”, people in the audience cry.)
Another question.
Q: Will Turkey be part of the EU in 10 years?
I doubt it, says Nick Clegg.
He says countries in the EU have been able to do things differently.
There is no imminent entry by Turkey. But I think that one of the unusual successes of the EU is that it has encompassed some very different cultures.
We have not become any less British since 1970. It isn’t a straight jacket.
He says three big things will have changed.
First, the border arrangments of Schengen will need to be tightened up.
Second, there will be deeper security cooperation, to keep our streets safe from terrorist attack.
And, third, he thinks the eurozone will have integrated more.
(In one of his 2014 debates with Farage, Clegg got into trouble when he answered a similar question by saying he did not think much would have changed.)
Clegg says, even if we leave the EU, we will still have to abide by their rules.
Updated
Farage says the EU is a 'failing political project'
Q: What will happen to the EU if we leave?
Alan Johnson says the UK can decide if Turkey joins the EU.
We have a say in what happen in Europe over the next 10 years.
He says he does not accept the idea that Europe is always something done to us.
Nigel Farage says “we are very influential in Europe” sarcastically.
Since 2010, there have been 40 occasions when we have opposed measures in the council of Europe. But we have lost on all those occasions, he says.
He says the EU is bringing poverty to the EU. And there is a migrant crisis. If we stay, we will be part of a “failing political project”.
If we stay on board this we will stay part of a failing political project. If we leave, hopefully we will inspire the rest of Europe to get back to a club of sovereign nations.
If we leave, we might inspire the rest of the EU to get back to what it was meant to be - a club of nations trading together.
Updated
Clegg says countries outside the EU have 'considerably worse terms of trade' with EU
Clegg says he expected an answer to what what happen.
People mention all sorts of options, including being like Andorra or Greenland.
All countries that try to trade with the EU have “considerably worse terms of trade”.
Farage says staying in the EU would mean a political union with Turkey.
A question from Lionel in the audience.
Q: Specifically, what will happen if Britain leaves?
Leadsom says, if Britain leaves, it will be in a position to decide.
Someone shouts: “Answer the question.”
Leadsom says no one has a crystal ball. But Britain will be able to determine the terms of trade.
- Leadsom says no one has a “crystal ball” and can predict what will happen under Brexit.
She says it is “perfectly possible to negotiate terms of exit” with time.
Johnson says it will be difficult to negotiate trade deals. At the same time, immigration will still be a problem. We would lose the protection of the Dublin accord and the Le Touquet deal with France.
And Britain would not get free movement anyway.
Farage says he has no idea what will happen if Britain leaves.
But we will be voting for a political union with Turkey, with 77 million people being able to come in.
What will happen after the referendum? If we vote to remain, I can’t honestly answer the question because I don’t know how much legislation is in the pipeline.
We are on the way to going into a union with Turkey “77 million even poorer people.
What we are doing if we vote to leave is that we are voting to become an independent-self governing nation. Already tonight you have seen Alan [Johnson] talking about the impossibility of doing deals and Nick [Clegg] talking as if we are some piddling little island to the south of Greenland.
The other side don’t think we are good enough to go out and stand on our own two feet.
This generates a lot of shouting. “Liar”, someone shouts.
- Farage says staying in the EU would mean a political union with Turkey.
He says the other side do not think Britain is good enough to go it alone.
Updated
First question, from Anushka.
Q: Why are you trying to scare voters?
I’m not, says Nigel Farage. He says he wants to inspire people, and show them that Britain is better than being “a star on somebody else’s flag”.
Alan Johnson says Farage is pessimistic about everything, until he talks about leaving the EU, when he turns into Anne of Green Gables. Under the EU, countries in the east have gone from oligarchy to democracy.
Nick Clegg says it is not about fear. But it is legitimate for people to be concerned. This decision will cast a shadow for children who cannot vote. He thinks of his kids; if Britain votes to leave, the UK will fall apart. Britain will be drifting “south of Greenland”, he says.
There are jeers from the audience. People shout “rubbish”.
Andrea Leadsom says Britain can make the best of it if it goes alone.
The panel have arrived. Alan Johnson is on the far left (from where the audience is sitting), next to Nick Clegg, Andrea Leadsom and Nigel Farage.
Farage gets the biggest cheer - but also the loudest boos.
Anushka asks how many people have not made up their minds about the EU referendum. Not many hands go up.
Anushka Asthana, the Guardian’s political editor, is opening the event.
She is summarising some of today’s news stories, like this one.
There definitely are some Tories/Kippers in the audience. The Guardian is now showing a video promoting membership, and when Polly Toynbee and Owen Jones appeared on screen, some of the audience were less than enthusiastic ...
This is the biggest EU referendum debate held so far, according to a Britain Stronger in Europe staffer who is here. He told me he was surprised the broadcasters were not taking more of an interest.
Here’s the view from the stage.
We should be starting any minute now.
Here is Nigel Farage backstage.
Nice to see you to see you nice @Nigel_Farage warming up at London Palladium pic.twitter.com/fDZ0jeeRTH
— Andy Wigmore (@andywigmore) March 15, 2016
Readers with long political memories - ie, going back beyond last year’s general election - will realise that tonight’s event is, in part, a Clegg/Farage rematch. The pair took part in two televised debates in 2014, before the European elections.
Nigel Farage was judged to have won both encounters. Here is how the Guardian reported the first one.
Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage, the two British politicians with the most passionately held but conflicting views on Europe, traded blow after blow in a debate over Britain’s future EU membership – with the first opinion poll suggesting a decisive win for the Ukip leader.
A snap YouGov poll for the Sun of people who had seen the debate suggested a firm Farage win with 57% to Clegg’s 36%. Another 7% said they did not know.
And here is how we reported the second one.
Nigel Farage triumphed in the second television debate on Europe by a clear-cut 69% to 31%, an instant poll showed, suggesting that a more emotional but often overscripted Nick Clegg failed to convince viewers that Ukip is selling the British people a “dangerous con” and a “fantasy”.
Updated
Earlier, Andy Zaltzman asked members of the audience to cheer if they were in favour of leaving the EU, and cheer if they were in favour of staying. The responses suggested the audience was split roughly 50/50.
But maybe they just liked having the chance to make a noise. When Zaltzman got on to the subject of the general election and asked whether anyone was glad that David Cameron won, he got a much more muted response. It didn’t sound as if there is a huge Tory turnout.
Updated
I’m at the London Palladium now, where the comedy part of the show is under way. Andy Zaltzman is on. He is rather good.
Here’s my colleague Anushka Asthana rehearsing earlier.
Here's @GuardianAnushka on stage at the London Palladium preparing for tonight's #GuardianLive EU debate pic.twitter.com/3UpKeaQ1hB
— Guardian politics (@GdnPolitics) March 15, 2016
The auditorium was empty then, but it’s full now. Gawain Towler, a Ukip press officer, posted this on Twitter earlier.
Huge 100 yard plus queue for the @guardian debate with @Nigel_Farage Alan Johnson and others pic.twitter.com/ox8pov0AYZ
— Gawain Towler (@GawainTowler) March 15, 2016
And my colleague Ben Quinn has posted this from Zaltzman’s set.
"Show of hands...Do you like Democracy?" audience is asked at warmup for #GuardianLive #EUref debate
— Ben Quinn (@BenQuinn75) March 15, 2016
Reasonable show pic.twitter.com/EEb5n9FhwV
Updated
Politicians, even the good ones, are used to speaking in drab little meeting rooms or halls, with perhaps just a few dozen people in the audience. That’s how politics work, and mostly they don’t mind. But every now and then, perhaps, they crave some showbiz celebrity - like playing the London Palladium.
Well, tonight, Nick Clegg, Nigel Farage, Alan Johnson and Andrea Leadsom are at the West End theatre - and they’ve sold out.
The four will be discussing whether Britain should remain in the European Union or leave, at a debate chaired by the Guardian’s new political editor Anushka Asthana. It is one of many Guardian Live events organised through Guardian Members. Originally it was planned to stage it at a much smaller venue in Westminster, but demand for tickets was enormous and so the venue was switched to the Palladium, which seats just over 2,000 people. Don’t let anyone tell you there’s no interest in the EU referendum.
The panel features four of the most prominent politicians in the debate. They are:
For Remain
Nick Clegg - the former Liberal Democrat leader and deputy prime minister who has generally shunned the political limelight since his party crashed in the general election last year, but who feels passionate about EU membership, not least because he started his career in Brussels as a Eurocrat and then an MEP.
Alan Johnson - the Labour former home secretary who abandoned frontbench politics in 2011 only to spend the next five fending off speculation about how he would make a much better leader than the incumbent and who now, as chair of Labour In for Britain, is putting the case for the EU with an enthusiasm Jeremy Corbyn has yet to match.
For Leave
Nigel Farage - the charismatic yet divisive Ukip leader who, like Clegg, had a disappointing 2015 election (he failed to get elected as an MP) and who now finds he has the best chance of achieving the goal he has been striving for ever since he joined Ukip in the early 1990s when it was tiny party on the political fringe.
Andrea Leadsom - the former banker first elected as a Conservative MP in 2010 who made a name for herself as a pragmatic Eurosceptic on the backbenches (she ran the Fresh Start Group) before becoming first a Treasury minister, then an energy minister, and who has recently been tipped as Boris Johnson’s first choice for chancellor were he to become PM.
The event starts at 7pm with performances from two comedians, Andy Zaltzman and Sara Pascoe. The debate itself will not start until 8pm because the three MPs on the panel have to vote on the investigatory powers bill in the Commons.
Anushka will be using questions from the audience, as well as questions submitted by Guardian readers through Witness and questions submitted through Twitter. The hashtag for the event is #guardianlive.
Guardian readers are probably more likely to be at the pro-EU end of the plank, but I’m told that a deliberate effort was made to ensure that tickets were sold to Brexiters and so the audience should be fairly mixed.
This blog is going live now but I will not be updating it again until around 7.30, not long before the debate starts. Then I will be covering the debate in detail and posting highlights at the end.
There is a live feed at the top of the blog which will start showing at 8pm.
If you want to follow me on Twitter, I’m on @AndrewSparrow.
Updated
