The following is a condensed and edited interview with Gloria Steinem, feminist and author.When you look at the women who are in business and got to the top, is there anything more you’d like to see them doing? Well, it’s up to them. It tends to depend on whether they did it themselves or somebody appointed them or somebody hired them, because the ones who were hired by corporate interests were often hired because they weren’t making trouble. So it depends how they got there. Sheryl Sandberg is a good example of someone who got to the top and took others with her. Carly Fiorina has, as far as I know, never represented the majority interests of women. Do you think it matters that we have a woman president? I think it matters in two ways. One, she will know what it’s like to be a female human being in this country, just as President Obama knows what it’s like to be an African American human being in this country. But that would not be important if they didn’t both represent the majority interest of their own group and the country. I mean, having Sarah Palin would be a disaster. Having Margaret Thatcher would be a disaster. If Hillary Clinton is elected, do you think she might handle some things differently because she’s a woman? Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, you can see it as it is, that she focused on health care, for instance, and health care is something women use way, way more than men do because of childbearing. She focused on violence against women and human rights for women as secretary of state. We can demonstrate in every current country that the biggest indicator of whether there is violence inside that country or whether it will be willing to use violence militarily against another country is not poverty, not access to natural resources, not religion, or even the degree of democracy. It’s violence against females. That is the single biggest indicator. For millennials the issues seem to be gender fluidity and campus violence. Is that what you’re hearing? I think the biggest issue is they are graduating in debt, which didn’t happen to us to the same degree. And women are pretty aware that they’re going to earn a million dollars less over their lifetime to pay back the same debt. So they’re mad as hell. What can be done? I don’t think the connection has been made enough to the state legislatures, because they’re the ones who have done it. They’ve been taking the money that should have gone to state universities and building prisons with it, prisons we don’t need and prisons that are sources of profit—I mean 30 states have privatized for-profit prisons. What about life for older women?Statistically, women over 60 of all races are still the poorest demographic in the country, for all kinds of reasons: unequal pay when they’re working, no pay when they’re raising children. But I think older women are the activists, because they got radicalized by life. There are more young women activists than ever before, but older women have the will and knowledge to speak out. In your new book, My Life on the Road, you write that you’ve spent about half your life traveling but never learned how to drive. Why? I did learn how to drive when I was in high school. And I drove occasionally after that, but my license has long been lapsed. If you don’t drive, chances are that your trip begins the moment you’re not isolated in a tin can. I think of it when I see people commuting because it seems so lonely to me, although they tell me they use this time to sing out loud or listen to novels. But it makes sense to me that the trip begins as soon as you leave your door. Jack Kerouac couldn’t drive either. So I felt justified. Is there a change that has occurred since you became an activist in the women’s movement you didn’t expect—that’s been surprising? I think, changes in both reality and language I wouldn’t have expected. That is, to meet a woman friend and have her talk about “my wife,” or have a friend, Susan Faludi, whose father is a transsexual and who has now written a book in which she alternates pronouns by the situation. I didn’t anticipate that. I am glad for it, because I think the polarization into gender is 100 percent artificial. What’s frustrating to me is not seeing these divisions, these false divisions, as fundamental to everything. The creation of the masculine ideal is a major force causing [men] to be violent against their own self-interests. It’s connected to everything. Boko Haram could have kidnapped people for ransom. It would have made more sense in a lot of ways. But they kidnapped the one thing they don’t have—wombs. The terrorist groups are exceedingly gender-polarized. The more polarization of gender, the more violence and the less democratic. What else concerns you? The good news is we now have a majority changed consciousness. We have majority support for abortion in this country, for reproductive freedom in general, for equal pay, [family leave, LGBT rights,] for all these issues. The bad news is we have a backlash from people who used to be in the majority and are alarmed to find themselves no longer there, especially because this country is about to become no longer majority white. And so people who have been brought up to think that race matters are in a panic, and they are against immigration (documented and otherwise), sex education, gays and lesbians—you know, any sex that can’t end in conception. I mean, they will just cheerfully look at me and say, “The white race is committing suicide through contraception, abortion, and immigration.” We treat abortion as a completely separate issue from immigration, and it’s not exactly because the underlying anxiety is not totally about race, but it’s a lot about race. You’ve talked about being in Africa recently and learning about a way to prevent sex trafficking. It became a kind of helpful parable for government or foundation funding. I came to see friends who live along the Zambezi River. They had arranged a meeting with a lot of women from local villages, maybe 20 or 25. Even I, who have ultimate faith in talking circles, thought maybe this was not going to work because there were too many differences of language and experience. But after a certain shyness, one woman began to talk about her husband’s violence toward her. That caused other women to talk. Two women from those villages had gone to Lusaka to prostitute themselves and never came back, because they needed money for food and also for the kids’ school fees. So I said to them, what would have prevented this? They said a good maize crop. I said, what prevented a good maize crop? They said the elephants came as soon as it was up to a certain height. In the old days, there was a system with a tower with somebody up there with a drum that scared them away. So I asked, “Well, what would prevent that?” They said if they had an electrified fence. I raised—I can’t remember—I think it was under $3,000 for an electrified fence, and they cleared acres and acres by hand, which is a lot of work. When I went back the next year, there was a bumper crop. There were bags of maize under the tree. They had enough for food, security, and also enough to sell so that their kids could go to the local schools. But if someone had asked me what would prevent sex trafficking, I would not have said an electrified fence. Is being the face of the women’s movement a burden? We have many faces in the women’s movement; I’m not the only one. But I’m recognized for something I deeply care about. It’s like a shortcut to friendship because you know you share values. You can skip past six weeks of lunches and go straight to the issues. And sometimes it’s hostile, but mostly it’s not. You’ve also been a style icon for women. What’s your power outfit? I went through many years of thinking I should dress like other people told me to. Fortunately, the movement came along and got all of us out of having to dress like ladies. So, especially from traveling a lot, I gradually evolved a kind of uniform of black or brown pants and a top and then changing belts or jackets. You’re 82 and still traveling. How do you manage? I tell everyone my age because I can’t believe it. And if there were an Olympic team for sitting still, I would be on the team. I’m very good at sitting still on planes. It doesn’t bother me. And then people pick me up and tell me about a whole different world.
To contact the author of this story: Carol Hymowitz in New York at chymowitz1@bloomberg.net.
To contact the editor responsible for this story: Howard Chua-Eoan at hchuaeoan@bloomberg.net.
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