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The Guardian - UK
The Guardian - UK
World
Jon Henley European affairs correspondent and Martin Belam

French election: Marine Le Pen and Emmanuel Macron lock horns in TV debate – as it happened

'Madame Le Pen, talk about YOUR programme, not mine.
‘Madame Le Pen, talk about YOUR programme, not mine.’ Photograph: AFP/Getty Images

Tonight’s debate is not going to go down as a classic. Previous TV encounters on the way to winning the French Presidency have delivered lines that have lived long in the memory: “You do not have a monopoly on heart” for example. This evening was a lot more of an unseemly squabble, and at times very ugly.

All the signs from the polls are that Macron will win at the weekend, but it looks like a sizeable chunk of Mélenchon supporters will not be helping him on his way. Could that make a difference and let Le Pen in?

We’ll find out on Sunday night. Join us then.

If you are puzzled by the attraction of Marine Le Pen to some French voters, it is worth spending ten minutes watching this video where our Paris bureau chief Angelique Chrisafis visits ‘forgotten France’

Marine Le Pen’s rise in ‘forgotten France’ — video

There’s a moment where she speaks to someone in rural France who is going to vote Le Pen, who says:

I even had an uncle who was detained in the concentration camps during the war. He did three camps - Dachau, Buchenwald and Auschwitz. With three numbers tattooed here. So I know how these kind of people are. But to put things right again - it’s the only solution.

In the UK, coinciding with the end of tonight’s debate, the former leader of Ukip, Nigel Farage, has written for the Telegraph saying that he endorses Marine Le Pen as the right candidate for “Brexit Britain”

In the piece he says of Le Pen that “There is nothing she has said in this entire election campaign that I find unreasonable or extreme.”

There will be people who think her stated views on the wartime roundup of Jews in Paris stretch that definition.

So what did Guardian commenters make of that fractious debate? Here’s a selection of the comments left in the concluding moments:

User avatar for K19W12

The France I know has manners. Mme Le Pen has none. That some French even contemplate voting for her goes beyond me. Well, it worked for Trump. The West has lost its civility; we will be as barbarous as the ones we claim to oppose.

User avatar for Lentille

LePen really nails my old playground routine whenever someone outshone me intellectually: trying to make fun of them relentlessly.

Problem is, we're supposed to be adults now and I'm not trying to become the president of France.

But it wasn’t like Macron didn’t fight back:

User avatar for hopethathelps

Macron calling Le Pen a 'parasite'.

Apparently, he's the dignified one.

And there’s still an issue of trust with what Macron might do if he gets into power:

User avatar for James00000

Can the French people trust a former investiment banker whom will struggle to resist the interests of those friendships forged during those years and years in office....

Maybe RogueEmu here identifies the ultimate conundrum for the French public. These candidates offer two very different visions of the France they want to lead, but neither of them could gather more than 25% of the vote in the first round

User avatar for RogueEmu

If a politician from the centre-ground had offered even vaguely economically-literate proposals on how best to extricate France from the Euro, i suspect neither Le Pen nor Melenchon would have made it anywhere near the second round. Instead, the increasingly cynical and Eurosceptic French electorate is being offered a choice between two weak candidates: one the leader of an extremist party, the other, through his support of the Euro, unable to promise anything other than 'more of the same'.

By common consent one of the worst presidential debates in living memory, thanks largely to what the former Liberation foreign editor Pierre Haski has just described as “debate trolling” by Marine Le Pen.

And despite that, as Angelique notes:

I will be back on Sunday to liveblog the day the French elect their next president.

Updated

I’m going to wrap the blog up fairly soon. My colleague Angelique Chrisafis will post her considered view shortly.

In the meantime, a few commentators:

Marion van Renterghem, ex political reporter at Le Monde:

“Who will be seduced by the lies and aggression of MLP, beyond the voters who she has already won? Macron, even on the defensive, stayed solemn.”

Editor in chief of Marianne weekly Renau Dély: “After this performance form Marine Le Pen, can anyone still seriously say the FN has become a party of government?”

Senior Politico Europe writer Pierre Briançon:

And here’s the pollsters’ snap verdict - a big win for Macron:

End of debate

That was ... nasty.

Most commentators seem to agree that Le Pen spent more time attacking Macron – as a banker, the candidate of the establishment, a socialist in disguise – than explaining her own project.

She was quite often, particularly on the euro, in difficulty, and spent a lot of time shuffling her notes, sniggering and openly mocking. According observers on social media, it went down a storm with her followers. I’m not sure how well it will play with the 18% of voters who have yet to fully make up their minds.

Macron did pretty well not to lose his cool. He managed to lay out the main elements of his programme and at the end scored solid points, repeatedly pointing out that Le Pen was spending more time insulting him than presenting her programme.

His campaign tweeted this at the end:

This is a good summary of Le Pen’s approach:

Updated

In her conclusion, Le Pen once more attacks Macron.

He points this out, again. He says, “I reject the defeatism and hatred of the Front National.”

Le Pen manages to get the last word in: “Hollande’s project.”

It’s over.

The two journalist moderators look extremely relieved.

Updated

The final words (hopefully):

Le Pen says the France that Macron defends is not France, it is a market. She says her France is a nation, with a people, a culture. France has been in chaos, it is time to restore order.

Macron says she was given two minutes to say what she wanted, and all she could do was insult her adversary. Your project is based on fear and lies. It’s what drove your father. He says he wants a real transformation. She laughs.

Updated

Here’s a little idea of what Marine Le Pen was like during that exchange:

And another:

Updated

Marine Le Pen came very close to defamation during that little exchange, suggesting Macron may have offshore bank accounts:

Updated

It really did get dirty for a while there. A very nasty spectacle.

There are definitely people in France worried about the ultimate impact of people abstaining because they can’t bring themselves to support Macron. This graffiti photographed today on a poster on the Paris metro sums up those fears.

Anti-Le Pen graffiti in Paris
Anti-Le Pen graffiti in Paris Photograph: Owen Franken/Corbis via Getty Images

Updated

Question: should the number of MPs be cut?

Macron says they should be reduced by one-third, and some proportional representation. No more than one elected mandate at a time.

This has turned into a slanging match.

Macron says Le Pen has threatened and criticised the justice system whenever it doesn’t suit her, and she is under investigation (for abuse of European parliament funds). He is strong here:

You are not up to this job. The country deserves better than this. You insult judges, you threaten journalists ...

Updated

If you’ll excuse the humblebrag of this tweet starting with ‘Great blog’, Sophie Johnstone on Twitter has asked this about the attitude of Jean-Luc Mélenchon and his supporters

A poll this week suggested that 65% of those who backed Mélenchon will not vote for Macron. Mélenchon got 19.58% in the first round of the election.

But that doesn’t amount to any show of support for Le Pen from Mélenchon himself. He has said: “I’m going to vote, but what I’m going to vote, I’m not going to say. You don’t have to be a great scholar to guess what I’m going to do. Is there a single person among you who doubts the fact that I’m not going to vote for the Front National? Everyone knows that.”

“The only lesson from this debate: it is no more possible to debate with MLP today than it was with her father yesterday.”

“In two hours of spouting, Le Pen has transformed the presidential debate into a verbal swamp. Macron is doing exceptionally well not to get dirty in it.”

Here are a few of your views from the comments. We’ll be keeping the comments open until the debate finishes, but we’ll be closing them shortly after that.

User avatar for HauntedTupperware
This comment has been chosen by Guardian staff because it contributes to the debate

What's missing is a real alternative!

The sad truth is, that Macron represents the status quo. Lucky for him, the only alternative on offer is trying to channel ideas from the middle of last century-- ideas which already led to disaster. What's missing is a new way forward.

The political system is subservient to a financial system, which is broken. We cannot continue like this and the longer we do, the worse it will be in the long run. My personal feeling is that changing our source of energy to renewables is critical. A political requirement is to make the distribution of wealth fairer-- the current situation is obscene, in which CEOs are earning millions of Euros a year.

Salbrog highlights what some commenters have conjectured, that Macron winning, and then failing to deliver significant change to the disaffected parts of France, will open the door for a successful FN candidate next time around:

User avatar for Slabrog

Macron sounds ominously like the last leaders of the Weimar Republic . His win will be pyrrhic unless he addresses the systemic weaknesses of French society , which he as a neoliberal will not and cannot . The National Front will have had 40+% of the vote this time and will be in a very strong position to build to a majority vote as France lurches into Macron's austerity future .

Here’s a reflection on the contrast of the debating style with that which we are used to in the UK:

User avatar for ID3830245

There are some repeated themes ('Ms Le Pen is a liar', 'Mr Macron hates the French' etc.) but what impresses me is the amount of detailed content they are raising.
They make the usual UK two person tv political discussions look banal- which they usually are. Not sure whether that is a reflection on our politicians, our electorate or both.

Although if nothing else, the podium-free format stops the French having an entire of evening of ‘worst Kraftwerk gig ever’ jokes foisted on them via social media

Unluckyforsome is unimpressed with Macron, and points out that often in these debates the front-runner has everything to lose.

User avatar for Unluckyforsome

I expected Macron to only really have to turn up to win, yet im finding his approach and style deeply grating and off putting. Condescending, rude and at times petty really take away from the content. Not to say male pen is any better but I expected more. Also shows why May is so against any debates, the front runner can rarely come out positively.

Meanwhile this commenter seems singularly unimpressed with Le Pen

User avatar for Vive Laz République

She's childish, vulgar and would rather attack and insult than being concrete and rational. She lies and exaggerates everything. Truly unbearable.

The question: foreign relations in a world of Trump and Putin?

She says France has to be “equidistant” between Russia and the US. She says there is no point waging a cold war against Russia.

Updated

Cruel but a little bit true ...

Just a reminder that if you want to watch the debate, France24 have a livestream with translation. A word of caution, though: despite both the presenters and the candidates having a 50/50 gender split – a source of some contention before the event – the translation team is all men, so you have to keep an eye on the screen to keep a check on who is talking.

Updated

Le Pen accuses Macron of being Angela Merkel’s servant. Macron says he wants a reformed EU that protects its citizens. She titters: “How long has that been a promise?”

He replies:

Updated

Le Pen’s performance on the euro is genuinely lamentable. “Almost enough to make you pity her ...”

Indeed:

Le Pen is openly mocking and laughing at Macron ands it is not a good look:

The question is about Europe:

Le Pen says that under her presidency, Europe will return to being a union of sovereign nations with control over their frontiers, over their laws, over their economy, their currency. She promises a constitutional referendum in September. She says she will go to the people with a referendum on negotiating the terms of France’s membership of the EU.

Macron asks: do you want to take us out of the euro or not? He wants to pin her down on this because she has vacillated over the past couple of weeks.

She claims the UK economy has never performed better than since the Brexit referendum. She says:

The euro is the currency of the banks. The franc is the currency of the people.

Macron plays a strong card here: a national French currency would lose 20% of its value overnight. He says France is not a closed country, it is in Europe. He says he does not want the French people to lose spending power, competitiveness and the country’s place in the world by stepping out of the euro.

Updated

This is absolutely right:

“Le Pen talks about Macron. Macron talks about France.”

Very noticeable that Le Pen has a pile of notes in front of her that she keeps consulting. Macron has none.

Le Pen brings up Macron’s clumsy remark about France having committed crimes against humanity in Algeria. He ripostes by bringing up her remarks about France not being responsible for rounding up Jews during the Nazi occupation.

Updated

There’s been quite a lot of this:

Macron on terrorism:

Madame Le Pen. Please let me reply. These debates are serious. Stop lying.

He says France does have some share of responsibility because these were often people born in France, who were not offered a chance by French society. He says that by insulting French people, seeking to divide them, she is the one likely to do more to encourage terror.

Updated

In the comments jamesewan echoes what a lot of commentators are saying - that Le Pen is very much on the attack during this debate, but that consequently she is failing to outline much of her own programme.

User avatar for jamesewan

I'm biased of course but Le Pen's constant personal attacks seem a transparent tactic to avoid talking about her own programme, especially as concerns the economy, where Macron comes across as far more technically knowledgeable. She seems to hope that she will rile him up enough to make him lose his temper, which is a genuine risk, and the debate has frequently degenerated into petty squabbles. This seems to be what Le Pen wants, to keep things fractious and bitchy and avoid detail and substance. The moderators are doing a bad job. David Pujadas of France 2 normally does better in these circumstances.

Macron himself has pointed it out:

Updated

Fair point:

Macron replies.

Terrorism is the priority for the coming years, he says. The key will be to improve intelligence, he says. The intelligence services must be greatly reinforced, especially on the net.

He says closing down borders is absurd. First, countries that are not part of the Schengen passport-free zone have suffered terror attacks, and in any case since 2015 France has been able to control its borders.

Macron scores a point here: he stresses that Le Pen has voted against every single reform proposed by the EU to combat terrorism.

If you are not watching it, this is the setup. The two politicians are facing each other across a table, with hosts Christophe Jakubyszyn and Nathalie Saint-Cricq in the middle. The clock projected on to the table indicates how long each candidate has spoken so far during the evening.

The participants
The participants waiting to start tonight’s debate Photograph: Eric Feferberg/AFP/Getty Images

As a reminder, Macron won 24% of the first round vote, while Le Pen came in second with 21.3%. Polls since the first round suggest that Macron is on course for victory in Sunday’s decisive vote.

Macron remains on course to beat Le Pen

Updated

The question is now about security and terrorism.

Le Pen says it is a hugely important topic that is “completely absent” from Macron’s programme. She flatly accuses him of “tolerating Islamist terrorism”.

He says will she please talk about her programme, and stop talking nonsense about his.

Pretty full on comment from Le Pen:

Updated

Macron says that allowing everyone to retire at 60 as Le Pen has just proposed will cost €30bn. He says either you increase contributions, or you lower pensions. There’s no other solution and Le Pen has certainly not invented one, he says.

Two views from the comments. Laurence picks up that Macron’s government experience lends him a slightly more credible air when discussing tinkering with the system, but that he isn’t a radical option.

User avatar for Laurence Bury

Macron has been in government long enough to talk a good game in terms of moderately pro-growth measures within the existing system.
But the camps are already fixed - the middle class will vote for him and the 'left behind' are behind Le Pen. But imagine if a radical (and populist) leftist with cross-class support was up against Macron? That would potentially be 'revolutionary' and a major threat to the EU - hence the abstention of the Melenchon vote come Sunday (shades of Sanders and Clinton?)

Commenter sbmfc brings up the people who will not support Le Pen, but also cannot support Macron.

User avatar for sbmfc

I accept and agree with all the criticisms of Le Pen.

The reason not to vote for Macron is simple. I believe that neoliberalism is destroying society and destroying the environment and that US led neoconservatism is responsible for horrible war crimes in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria.

Therefore I can no more vote for a man who is a neoliberal and a neoconservative than I can Le Pen.

Updated

This is actually an acute summing-up of the dynamic so far. Macron is like a particularly patient teacher. It will certainly play well with his sympathisers; doubt it will with Le Pen’s.

Updated

Macron wins the cost of medicine debate quite clearly, pointing out:

The discussion is now about lowering the cost of medicines. Le Pen instantly switches to the problem of “uncontrolled immigration” .

Updated

There are a few Guardian reporters following the debate on Twitter. Angelique Chrisafis thinks that economic policy is Le Pen’s weak point:

Iman Amrani, on the other hand, thinks Le Pen has been bossing it so far:

Macron has, though, according to Kim Willsher, had his moments of being blunt back to Le Pen.

Updated

It is a fact that the two journalist moderators are not getting much of a look-in. This is hand-to-hand stuff:

And again:

A quick summary for those who have just joined us:

When Macron says Le Pen is “talking nonsense” – which he has now said several times – he is insulting her, she says. Macron says if anyone has been doing the insulting since the beginning of the debate, it’s her. Touché.

Updated

Sounds familiar: Le Pen says the EU costs France €9bn a year. Macron says it’s €6bn. But she is not strong on the economy.

Macron asks Le Pen straight out: how will you finance your programme? He says if you cut taxes and do not cut spending at the same time, the sums will not add up. And it will be our children who pay, he says.

Macron is talking about his tax proposals. In terms of concrete policy detail, this is a very unequal contest. Le Pen favours the sweeping generality.

Le Pen says because Macron is a socialist, he’ll be giving with one hand and taking away with the other and “It will all be fine, because the state will pay.”

Updated

Not sure that Le Pen’s sardonic mockery is working here.

In the comments, Robert Dinca gets to the heart of one of debates that has been swirling around since Macron and Le Pen emerged as winners from the first round. That there are people are would never vote for Le Pen but who also cannot contemplating for the centrist programme of someone like Macron:

User avatar for Robert Dinca

I understand why someone would never vote for Le Pen, i cannot understand how anyone would vote for a neocon like Macron.... Any intelligent person would abstain from voting

Olivier Tonneau wrote for us the other day that in theory Macron should beat Marine Le Pen hands down. But he has little commitment from the electorate.

Hadley Freeman thinks the choice is rather more obvious - Le Pen is a far-right Holocaust revisionist. Macron isn’t. Hard choice?

She wrote about her own family’s experience of fleeing the Nazis in France.

Forgive me if I can’t quite join in on this nose-holding approach to Macron, but some of us can imagine all too easily a France under the sway of a fascist leader, and what the costs of that would be. Sure, criticise Macron’s policies, but to rail against him because of your ideological idea of who he is – a banker, an insider – is the definition of decadence. Lucky you that you aren’t terrified about who – and what – he is running against.”

Updated

The journalists are having a lot of trouble keeping this debate in order, conservative commentator Christophe Barbier notes – much more than in the first debate in 1974:

Updated

Le Pen repeats her policy of heavily taxing goods produced by French companies that have relocated abroad.

Macron is now talking about the “Whirlpool standoff”, when the two candidates both visited the same factory threatened with closure. He points out that he spent an hour talking to the workers, he says, while she stayed 15 minutes and took selfies.

She is continuing her constant personal attacks on Macron:

Updated

Le Pen says:

Macron says she really must stop talking nonsense. She is consulting documents in front of her that are completely irrelevant to the question that was asked, he says.

Le Monde’s Vanessa Schneider sums up the tone so far:

Far from the usual courtesies that govern this kind of confrontation, Marine Le Pen has opened with a flame thrower. She attacked with considerable violence her “investment banker” rival whose mask has “fallen away” during the campaign.

Commenters are noticing Le Pen’s tactic:

The next question is about the economy: Macron says he wants more flexibility for employers, but combined with protection for employees. Le Pen is smiling sardonically as she replies. She says he had a free hand to reform France’s economy while he was economy minister. She’s mocking him.

It’s already clear this will be her tactic in the debate: to try to minimise him, paint him as the non-serious candidate.

She says he does not have the country’s interests at heart; he defends the interests of the business class.

Macron replies that her strategy is to tell “a lot of lies”. He says she has no concrete proposals. He says: “The French people deserve better than this. They deserve the truth.”

Updated

If your French isn’t up to listening to tonight’s debate in the original language, France24 are broadcasting a livestream with simultaneous translation into English.

Our Paris bureau chief Angelique Chrisafis is commenting on tonight’s debate on Twitter. Here is what she made of the opening exchanges:

If you’d like some background on why areas of France are voting for Marine Le Pen, Angelique made this 10-minute video about what Le Pen calls ‘forgotten France’.

Marine Le Pen’s rise in ‘forgotten France’ — video

Updated

This from the Guardian’s Paris bureau chief, Angelique Chrisafis:

Updated

Macron replies:

Le Pen is the candidate of the Front National, a party that for 40 years has presented Le Pens as candidates in the presidential election. But what do you actually want to achieve? To say to our compatriots that globalisation is too difficult for us, we have to close our frontiers, as if that’s the only solution.

He says this is defeatist, because France has always succeeded. It’s the fifth largest economic power in the world. He wants to reform France so that it lives up to its full potential.

Updated

The two candidates are sitting opposite each other, with the two journalists between them.

First question: what is your state of mind?

Marine Le Pen says she is relaxed, because Macron is the candidate of “wild globalisation”, precarity, economic liberalism – in short, disaster. Whereas she is the candidate of the people, protecting the nation, its economy, its frontiers … Using shameful arguments, “like the investment banker you have never stopped being”.

A stinging opening attack.

Updated

Hello and welcome to the Guardian’s live coverage of the débat d’entre deux tours – the live debate that, since 1974, has pitted the two finalists in the run-off for France’s presidential election against each other for an hour or two of spirited discussion.

This time around – in case you have been away from the news for a while – the two candidates are Emmanuel Macron, a former investment banker and economy minister running as an independent centrist, and Marine Le Pen, the leader of the far-right, anti-EU Front National. Polls suggest that Macron is the favourite.

The last time there was a Le Pen in the run-off, in 2002, was also the only time the debate was not held: Jacques Chirac, who went on to win a landslide victory, refused to cross swords with Marine’s father, Jean-Marie. It’s a sign of the extent to which the FN has become an accepted part of France’s political landscape that there was no question of that this time.

Both candidates have arrived in the studios, Le Pen presenting herself as the “candidate of change” and Macron saying he expected to prove that his rival’s programme was “not of the kind to respond to the challenges the country faces”.

As my colleague Kim Willsher said in this curtain-raiser earlier, the debate – while it may not have an enormous impact on the final result – is expected to be belligerent and bad-tempered, with Le Pen, trailing by as many as 20 points in the polls, likely to feel that she has little to lose by going on the offensive.

The verbal jousting match, which could draw 40 million viewers, is expected to last nearly two hours. As Kim said, every last detail has been prepared and approved by the candidates or is the result of an independent draw:

Each will speak for exactly the same amount of time indicated by a clock on the screen. Le Pen will sit to the left, Macron to the right, precisely 2.5 metres apart, and will be scrutinised by 14 cameras. The temperature in the studio will be set at 19C. About 60 questions have been prepared on themes including unemployment, Europe and the economy.

Feel free to tweet me @jonhenley as the evening progresses – though I can’t promise I’ll have the time to respond to everyone.

Here we go, then.

Updated

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