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The Guardian - UK
The Guardian - UK
Politics
Andrew Sparrow

EU referendum: Michael Gove questioned on Sky News - live

Gove: I’m asking the public to trust themselves over Brexit

Summary

Here are the main lines from Michael Gove’s performance on Sky News.

  • Michael Gove, the justice secretary and co-chair of the Vote Leave campaign committee, seemed to accept that people could lose their jobs if Britain left the EU. Asked whether he could guarantee no-one would lose their job as a result of Brexit, Gove said:

I can’t guarantee every person currently in work in their current job will keep their job.

When asked who would lose their job, he went on:

Seventy-three members of the European Parliament will be losing their job. Our European Commissioner will be losing his job and as far as I’m concerned I wish them well in the private sector.

  • He claimed he was glad that none of the big economic organisations are backing Brexit. He would rather take the advice of business people, he said.

If you are talking about some of the independent economic authorities who’ve already weighed into the debate, they are people who have been wrong in the past. They are organisations, I’m afraid, that didn’t predict the global crash in 2008 and the same organisations in many cases who said we should be inside the single currency.

I am glad that all these organisations are not on my side. Margaret Thatcher said about economists, the great thing is that economists are fine but you mustn’t inhale.

I prefer to take the view of businesspeople who are actually generating jobs and creating wealth. The organisations that many people are citing in this debate are organisations that have been wrong in the past and I think they are wrong now.

He claimed that the EU was supported by “unelected, unaccountable elites”, and that the Leave camp, in contrast, represented the people.

It’s the invincible arrogance of Europe’s elites that gets me. These are people who have seen the euro collapse. These are people who are presiding over a migration crisis on their borders, and yet do they ever acknowledge that they need to change? No. They say they need more integration, more of our money, more control over this country.

I think it’s time that we said to people who are incapable of acknowledging that they’ve ever got anything wrong: ‘I’m sorry, you’ve had your day.’ Unelected, unaccountable elites, I’m afraid it’s time to say ‘You’re fired. We are going to take back control’.

  • He defended the Vote Leave claim that EU membership costs the UK £350m a week, despite the fact that it has been widely described by experts as untrue. And he said he would be happy to have that figure independently audited.
  • He claimed that most people in the UK were “suffering” because of the EU.

The majority people in this country are suffering because of our membership of the EU.

I know myself from my own background, the EU depresses employment and destroys job. My father had a business destroyed by the common fisheries policy.

Let me give you a fact, every year we give billions of pounds to the EU that we should be spending here. Taxpayers are handing money over to be spent on Jean Claude Juncker’s expense account and private jet.

  • He said he was not worried about experts not backing Brexit because he wanted the public to trust not experts but themselves.

I’m not asking the public to trust me, I’m asking the public to trust themselves.

  • He accused Sky’s Faisal Islam of adopting a stance of “sneering condescension” towards Leave campaigners because Islam said Gove and his team were following in the steps of Donald Trump. Gove replied:

I think it is wrong of you to say that people who want our democracy restored and believe Britain should be a self-governing nation are people who are following in the footsteps of Donald Trump.

It is that sort of sneering condescension towards people who believe in democracy that discredits those on the Remain side of the campaign.

  • He said he was “absolutely not” considering a bid for the Conservative leadership.

There are lots of talented people who could be prime minister, but count me out ... Whatever poster you put up, do not put up one of me!

  • He revealed that he did not support the government’s bid to stop the EU imposing a cap on bankers’ bonuses. Others defended that stance by the government, but he did not, he said.

I’m not interested in defending the position of those who already have privilege.

I explained to my cabinet colleagues that we should not be on the side of the undeserving rich. We have in the EU a market rigged in favour of the rich and stacked against the poor.

  • He criticised David Cameron for relying on “pessimism” when he was interviewed on Sky yesterday to put the case for Remain.
  • Gove was compared by a member of the audience to a first world war general, sending people over the top without caring what would happen next. (See 10.17am.)
  • He admitted that he was wrong to support the Iraq war.
  • He suggested the government could spend money support the British steel industry if the UK left the EU.

If we vote to leave, one of the things we can do is support industries that are going through terrible times. In the EU there are rules that prevent us from providing support in the way we might want to. We would have additional flexibility to help industries that really need it. I think if we were outside the EU, we would be able to support industries in difficult times ... The free market is not a god... The government should step in on certain occasions. Not every time but if we feel that it’s right.

That’s all from me for tonight.

Thanks for the comments.

Here is the Guardian panel verdict on Gove, with contributions from Deborah Orr, Matthew d’Ancona and Simon Jenkins.

Here is Anusthka Asthana And Rowena Mason’s story about Gove’s performance.

Here’s the Britain Stronger in Europe summary of the key points that emerged tonight, from the briefing they sent to journalists.

Asked directly, Michael Gove said “I can’t guarantee” people will keep their jobs

Vote Leave can’t name a single expert, economic institutions, business or foreign ally who supports them quitting Europe

The Leave campaign and Michael Gove failed to set out a credible plan for Britain outside the EU – and were called out on it by the public

The public are sick of Vote Leave’s lies over the controversial £350m figure – Michael Gove was forced to say he would have the figure independently audited

Here’s the Press Association account of the member of the audience who compared Michael Gove to a first world war general.

Michael Gove was accused of being like a First World War general sending his men over the top with no idea what was on the other side as he faced a public grilling on the EU referendum.

Andrew Carnegie, who runs a small business making parts for intensive care units, asked Gove to set out a detailed economic plan for the UK’s future outside of the EU.

He said: “I think the answer is there is no economic plan. It appears to me that you are asking people to vote for a divorce and sort out the financial settlement afterwards and that makes no sense to me.

“With all due respect Mr Gove, it appears to me it’s almost like a first world war general. You are waving the flag, you are saying ‘over the top men’ but you have no idea what’s on the frontline or what the casualty rate will be in the conflicts to come.”

Gove replied: “It’s certainly an arresting image, the First World War image. What I’m putting my faith in is the ingenuity, creativity and the strength of the British people.

“Many of those who are arguing we should remain are trying to frighten you by saying that it would be impossible for Britain to succeed. They are saying that Britain is too small, too poor and we are all too stupid to be able to succeed on the outside.

“I comprehensively reject that.”

The spoof twitter feed General Boles has responded to the comment from the questioner compared Gove to a first world war general. (See 8.39am.)

Gove on Sky News - Verdict from the Twitter commentariat

And this is what political journalists and commentators are saying about Gove’s performance on Twitter.

Mostly they are much more positive than I was.

From ITV’s Robert Peston

From the Sunday Times’s Tim Shipman

From the BBC’s Nick Robinson

From Huffington Post’s Paul Waugh

From the Daily Mirror

From CapX’s Iain Martin

From the FT’s Sebastian Payne

From the Specator’s James Forsyth

From Newsnight’s Ian Katz

From ConservativeHome’s Paul Goodman

From ITV’s Allegra Stratton

Here’s a scene from the spin room: James McGrory (on the left), who spins for Britain Stronger in Europe, and Robert Oxley, his opposite number for Vote Leave.

Michael Gove definitely had a point about the EU’s five presidents. Even the editor of the FT seems to be struggling ...

Luckily, I’ve got Google. They are: Jean-Claude Juncker (commission); Donald Tusk (council); Jeroen Dijsselbloem (Eurogroup); Mario Draghi (European Central Bank); and Martin Schulz (parliament).

Lord Falconer, the shadow justice secretary and Remain campaigner, said the Gove lost the audience as he failed to make a case about the economic impact of leaving.

I thought to start Gove had considerable support with the audience but that struck me as trailing off. The purpose of tonight and last night was to put the people making the case through their paces. How did Cameron deal with immigration?Incredibly well. How did Gove deal with questions about the economy? Not only did he not deal with them well, he didn’t deal with them at all. He simply said ‘I have faith’. It was not based on argument but his bold assertions.

Michael Gove has hit out at the “invincible arrogance of Europe’s elites” in a bruising interview on Sky News, in which he agreed to have the Vote Leave claim that Britain sends £350m to Brussels every week independently audited.

The justice secretary told the channel’s political editor, Faisal Islam, that he was happy to defend what he called a “real figure”, despite the fact that the head of the UK statistics authority has described it as misleading.

In an acrimonious clash, Gove also hit out at Islam accusing him of “sneering condescension” after the interviewer branded him an “Oxbridge Trump”. And he ruled himself out of any future Conservative leadership battle.

The Conservative cabinet member also:

  • said he could not offer a guarantee that no one would lose their job in the aftermath of Brexit
  • claimed that the majority of people in Britain are “suffering because of our membership of the EU”, adding that the institution destroyed his father’s fishing business
  • but failed to name a single economic authority or allied foreign leader who was backing the campaign for Britain to leave the EU

However, Gove was unapologetic, saying: “I’m glad all these organisations are not on my side. Margaret Thatcher said of economists, the great thing is that economics are fine but you must not inhale ... When we had a debate about joining the single currency, a majority of economists then thought we should join the single currency.”

Michael Gove being interviewed by Faisal Islam (right)
Michael Gove being interviewed by Faisal Islam (right) Photograph: Chris Lobina/AFP/Getty Images

Here is the statement on Gove’s performance issued by Vote Leave’s chief executive Matthew Elliott.

Michael Gove explained why Britain will be stronger and safer if we take back control. We can introduce a points-based immigration system. We can stop sending £50m a day to the EU and spend our money on our priorities like the NHS instead. Where David Cameron was pessimistic and talked Britain down, Gove was optimistic and explained how we can supercharge Britain after we take back control.

Last night the public rejected Cameron’s scaremongering and campaign of fear. Tonight the positive reception for Michael Gove shows that we are winning the arguments and that the momentum is with the Vote Leave campaign.

Tory MP Nick Herbert says Gove was like 'Farage with a wine glass'

Nick Herbert, Conservative MP and a leading member of its Remain campaign, told the Guardian he was disappointed with Gove for making controversial arguments about immigration and joking about not being able to guarantee people would not lose their jobs after Brexit.

I was sorry to see Michael Gove mounting arguments about immigration that he simply was not making just one year ago when he said those wanting to put up barriers were poisoning the debate. This was kind of like Nigel Farage with a wine glass. That is what the Leave campaign has become, falling back on arguments they said they were not going to make because they have lost the economic case.

I thought it was very telling that Michael Gove could not guarantee there would not be job losses and that he then made a joke of it. This is no joke for millions of people worried about what the economic consequences of Brexit would be.

Gove questioned on Sky News - Snap summary

Gove questioned on Sky News - Snap summary: At his best, Michael Gove was very good indeed. After struggling in his first half interview with Faisal Islam, Gove made a much better impression when taking questions from the audience. For him, leaving the EU has always been an issue of sovereignty and his riff about the five EU presidents that none of us can name (see 8.42pm), and about the removal van outside Number 10 being the great symbol of British democracy (he’s right) was superb. He also engaged well with the audience, in a manner likely to encourage those who see him as a future prime minister, provided they ignore what he actually said about this towards the end (in what was another wonderfully-phrased response.)

But by then the damage had been done. Gove’s answer about not wanting to be PM was good because it contained the much-prized “ring of truth”. His problem tonight was that, on all the big, substantial questions, he could not give straightforward, honest answers. It was not so much that his answers were dishonest; it was more a case (on what would happen to jobs, on what would happen to trade, on who are the experts in favour, on who are the allies in favour) of not having answers at all. It would be a wild exaggeration to say that the case for Leave was shredded, but for the first time on a big TV platform it has been rigorously tested, and its multiple weaknesses have been exposed. A symptom of this was the fact that Gove ended up turning on Islam, and accusing him of “sneering condescension” - often a sign that an interviewee is losing.

The evening also illustrated how the splits in the Leave camp - which would be fatal in a general election, when parties are supposed to be united, but which until now have not damaged Leave at all - could prove troublesome. Gove was unsettled when Islam put to him what the Ukip-funder Arron Banks has said about the £350m figure being wrong. And a member of the audience was clearly unhappy about the idea that, while Gove might not be anti-multiculturalism, Nigel Farage is.

Leave can take some comfort from the fact that the audience did not seem as hostile towards Gove as they did towards David Cameron last night. But it would be a mistake to read that as evidence that Gove “won”. As a prime minister into his seventh year of office it was perhaps inevitable that Cameron was seen as something of a punchbag, in a way that Gove was not tonight. But being harangued on TV is not necessarily a problem if the fair-minded viewer (assuming such a creature still exists, in the era of the rage-fuelled, social media echo chamber) thinks the politician is more reasonable than the person doing the haranguing. Cameron did not feel much love last night, but his arguments largely held up. Gove’s didn’t, which is why round one of Cameron/Gove goes to the PM.

(I say round one because they are both doing BBC EU referendum Question Time programmes, although four days apart.)

Updated

Gove ends saying we should think of the next generation.

If we have faith in them, we should leave the EU, and let them make the UK truly great, he says.

And that’s it.

Q 10 - Tory leadership

Q: Are you considering a bid for the leadership when Cameron steps down?

Absolutely not, he says. There are lots of good people who could do it. But “count me out”.

Q: You are seen as poster boy for the Tories.

Gove says the questioner should certainly not put a poster of him on the wall.

Q 9 - Housing

Q: My son is 27 and living at home with me. How will leaving the EU help him buy his own home.

Gove says single parents do a fantastic job. But he says leaving the EU will make it easier for young people to get on the housing ladder. It will vary in different parts of the country.

Q: That’s because not enough houses have been built under the Tories.

Gove says uncontrolled immigration has made the situation worse.

Updated

Q 8 - NHS

Q: [From an NHS worker] Won’t leaving the EU cause a staffing crisis in the NHS?

No, says Gove. He says he does not accept that. He thinks free movement and immigration has increased pressure on the NHS. The EU wants to admit five new countries. That would have a very bad impact on the NHS, he says.

Q 7 - Steel

Q: [From a Port Talbot steelworker] How should I vote to protect my job?

Gove says his heart goes out to the questioner. But, if we vote to leave the EU, the government can support its industries.

He says the government would have additional flexibility.

Q: Would Tata steel be saved?

Gove says it would be easier to support industries like Tata Steel.

Q: Would you back that?

Gove says as a Conservative it is important to recognise “the free market is not a god”. In some circumstances the government should step in, he says.

Updated

Q 6 - Gibraltar

Q: Spain is threatening Gibraltar. What would happen to it if we leave?

Gove says he thinks Spain, having fought so hard for democracy, would respect it in Gibraltar.

Q 5 - Property abroad

Q: What would happen to Britons who own homes in France if we leave?

Gove says he has friends with property in France. But they are voting to leave. There are international laws that would ensure their rights and property are respected.

Q: The Spanish prime minister has said something different.

Gove says one or two foreign politicians have tried to play the fear card. But property rights would be respected.

He says the EU will respect international law.

Instead of having a fractious relationship with the EU, we can have good relationships. Instead of being a difficult tenant, we can be a good neighbour.

Updated

Q: It is alleged the Tories committed electoral fraud. So the Tories could have won the election fraudulently. So this referendum is being held on a false premise?

Gove says he does not know about the allegations.

But he says that he thinks it is right for the people to have a say in this.

Q: Is another Scottish referendum inevitable if the UK leaves the EU?

Gove says he does not accept that. He does not think a leave vote will lead to a second independence referendum.

He says our democratic traditions have enabled us to become a beacon.

Updated

Q 4 - Scotland

Q: You won the Scottish independence campaign, accepting Scots should have some laws set by Westminster. Why don’t you accept the UK having some laws set by MEPs in Brussels?

Gove says the UK has elections. People know who the government is. But the EU is run by five presidents. Who can name them? He says he doubts anyone here can. Harriet Harman could not. He says the most powerful symbol of British democracy is the removal van arriving outside No 10. Yet we cannot vote out the people running the EU.

Updated

Q 3 - Vote Leave's plan

Q: In elections, parties present detailed manifestos. Why has not leave published a detailed plan?

Gove says leave has outlined in detail what could change. For example, it has said VAT on fuel could be cut to zero. That cannot happen if we stay in the EU.

He says the campaign will be saying more about its economic plans next week.

But it is not an alternative government, he says.

He says the point of a referendum is to give the government instructions.

The questioner says he thinks there is no economic plan. He says Gove is asking people to vote for a divorce, and to settle the finances out afterwards. That makes no sense, the questioner says. He says Gove is like a first world war general. He is sending people over the top, but has no idea what will come next.

Gove says ultimately he is putting his faith in the creativity and ingenuity of the British people.

Remain are saying Britain is too small to survive outside the EU.

Gove says he rejects that.

Updated

Q 2 - Immigration

Q: Multiculturalism is one of the greatest things in this society. Do you regret the leave campaign has been so divisive?

Gove says he agrees that multiculturalism has been a good thing. But we need to control immigration. It is wrong that any of the 450 million citizens of the EU can come here automatically, when people from countries linked to the UK, like India or the West Indies, cannot.

Q: You say that. Yet Nigel Farage came out yesterday and said people were concerned about having too many foreigners here.

Gove says he does not agree with that. But the key thing is to take control of immigration he says.

Updated

Gove, again, defends the £350m figure.

Q 1 - Motives

Q: Aren’t your side motivated by personal ambition?

Gove said what we heard last night was “depressing”.

Gove's interview with Faisal Islam - Snap verdict

Gove’s interview with Faisal Islam - Snap verdict: That was a showcase for Gove’s debating talents, and several times he cleverly and wittily turned the tables on Islam (for example, with his line about not needing a website to exist), but his cleverness could not conceal the weakness of his case, and his attempt to brush aside the derisory credible economic support for Brexit, or the opposition to it from the UK’s allies, or the falsehood of the £350m claim, or the absence of a trade deal scenario, reflected badly on the leave case. Their cause has been weakened. (Islam, though, was superb.)

Updated

Q: Do you have good judgment?

Gove says he is not sure.

Q: You supported the Iraq war, and said it was a good thing.

Gove says he called that wrong. He is happy to admit his mistakes. But the “unaccountable elites” will not do that.

Gove says he wants trade in this country determined by someone looking after British interests.

Q: What would happen if we left?

Gove says the day after, we could pass legislation limiting the power of the European court of justice.

We could have a free trade and friendly relationship with the EU.

There is a free trade zone in Europe that stretches from Iceland to Turkey.

Q: Does it have a website?

No.

Q: So it does not exist.

Gove says you do not have to have a website to exist. Many people in the audience don’t have websites. Yet they exist.

Q: You are asking us to risk our jobs on the basis of some secret plan. Who is your secret negotiator? Boris, who attacks the leader of the free world.

Gove says he backs Boris.

Updated

Q: What do you think will happen to the pound if we leave the EU?

Gove says Islam said yesterday it would fall.

Q: Don’t quote me.

Gove says Islam was saying something he did not believe. And he is accusing Gove of Trump-style politics.

Gove says he was not in favour of the government’s attempt to stop the EU restricting bonuses.

Q: Can you guarantee that if we leave the EU no one will lose their job?

Gove says he cannot guarantee that.

Q: Who will lose their jobs?

MEPs, says Gove.

Q; You are not at risk, are you?

Gove says he knows about this. He saw his father lose his job.

Q: I saw my father lose his job too. You are not unique.

Gove tells Islam not to belittle the pain of people who have lost their jobs because of the EU. He quotes the unemployment figures in Greece and Spain.

Q: We are not in the euro.

But they are coming to this country as a result.

Gove accuses Islam of “sneering” condescension

Q: Which week did we send £350m to the EU?

Gove says the figure is higher than that.

Q: We do not send that money.

Gove says we do.

Q: It never leaves the country. The UK Statistics Authority says that figure is misleading. Even Arron Banks, the Leave.EU co-founder, says about that figure that it is not smart to lie. Will you audit your figures?

Gove says he is happy to defend the figure.

Q: Will you have it audited?

Gove says he is happy to have that figure audited.

The key thing is, we do not have control of that money. If we took it back, we could spent it on things like the NHS.

Q: You have imported Trump’s approach to the UK. It is post-truth politics.

Gove says Islam cannot deny that billions are spent on our behalf.

And it is wrong to attack people who want self-control as being like Donald Trump. He accuses Islam of “sneering” condescension.

  • Gove accuses Islam of “sneering” condescension.

Updated

Gove says people are “suffering” because of the EU

Islam lists a whole bunch of experts opposed to Brexit. Why should people not trust them, but trust you Boris and Nigel?

Gove says the elites are in favour.

Q: Elites. You are lord high chancellor.

Gove says he trusts the people.

He says these people have got it wrong.

It is faith in the British people, he says.

  • Gove says the elite has got it wrong in the past.

He says people are suffering from the EU.

Q: Are they? 35m people?

Gove says his own father’s business suffered because of the EU. He accuses Islam of dismissing people like his father.

You, Faisal, are on the side of the elites. I am on the side of the people.

Q: You said people are suffering from the EU. You do not have any evidence for that.

Gove says the money is being spent on the EU, and things like Juncker’s private jet, not the people of this country.

  • Gove says people are “suffering” because of the EU.

Q: How many economists have you got on your side?

Gove says that many economists wanted the UK to join the euro.

He says his view is that we would be better off if we trusted the leaders of this country to spend the country’s money.

Q: You cannot name a big economic authority, and you are struggling to name more than a handful of economists. Can you name a single foreign ally backing Brexit?

Gove says the thing about these people ...

Q: You can’t name one, can you. I will give you a half for Donald Trump.

This gets a laugh.

Gove says the Americans would never accept a foreign court ruling over them.

Gove says he is glad none of the big economic organisations is backing Brexit

Faisal Islam is interviewing Michael Gove.

Q: How many independent economic authorities share your dream of a UK outside the EU?

Gove says Islam is talking about organisations that did not predict the crash, and that wanted the UK to join the euro.

Q: Can you name any one on your side?

Gove says he is glad none of them are. They were wrong in the past. He would rather listen to business people. He says Margaret Thatcher said the thing about economists was that you should not inhale.

  • Gove says he is glad none of the big economic organisations is backing Brexit.

He says these are organisations with an agenda. They have often been wrong.

Gove on Sky's EU: In or Out?

The programme is starting now.

There is a live feed at the top of this blog.

At least they’ve got good sandwiches in the spin room. This is from Newsweek’s Josh Lowe.

Here is Michael Gove being greeted by John Ryley, head of Sky News, when he arrived at the studio earlier.

Michael Gove with John Ryley (left).
Michael Gove with John Ryley (left). Photograph: Dan Kitwood/Getty Images

Michael Gove insists he does not want to be the next prime minister. Many politicians say this, but Gove says it with much more force than is useful, to such an extent that many journalists and MPs believe him.

But, for the last three months, he has come top in the regular ConservativeHome poll of Conservative members about who should be the next party leader.

ConservativeHome poll of Tory members on who should be next leader.
ConservativeHome poll of Tory members on who should be next leader. Photograph: ConservativeHome

Updated

Earlier today Michael Gove said he was nervous about tonight. He said:

I’m quite nervous because I’ve never done anything like this before but the main thing is I have been chosen to make sure that people have a chance to hear the Vote Leave message, so the main thing that I want do is to try to get across the essence of our case.

And of course Faisal Islam is a tough interrogator and I’m sure that he will challenge me to make the case as to how life will be a bit different and better if we were outside the European Union, and I’m sure there will be some worries from members of the audience about what leaving might mean.

I hope to be able to paint a positive picture of life outside and allay people’s fears.

On Twitter, Britain Stronger in Europe is setting three challenges for Michael Gove.

Updated

YouGov’s Joe Twyman points out that Michael Gove came bottom in a recent poll asking which of seven politicians is most trusted on the EU.

Yesterday David Cameron made the case on Sky News for remaining in the EU and tonight Michael Gove, the justice secretary, will be appearing to make the case for leaving. The referendum involves the British people making a historic choice about their future, but it is also an extraordinary contest between two close colleagues at the top of cabinet. Cameron and Gove were friends and fellow Tory modernisers before Cameron became party leader and before Gove became an MP (something Cameron encouraged him to do) and their families are very close. Cameron assumed that Gove would back him in opposing Brexit, but Gove, who has been a passionate Eurosceptic ever since he saw his adopted father’s fish business go bust partly because of the common fisheries polices, surprised Westminster by coming out for leave. Now he is co-convenor of the Vote Leave campaign committee.

Tonight will be the first time the Vote Leave arguments have been tested in a big, set-piece TV event in the short campaign. Gove, a former president of the Oxford Union, is one of the very best debaters in the Commons, but he has never had a campaign platform as important as this. It’s a big moment.

The programme starts at 8pm. For the first 20 minutes or so Gove will be interviewed by Faisal Islam, Sky’s political editor. Then he will take questions from the audience, with Kay Burley moderating.

I will be covering the entire event, posting a snap verdict at the end, and then rounding up the best reaction and analysis, as well as summarising the key news lines.

If you are interested in today’s EU referendum campaign events, here’s our earlier live blog.

Updated

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