Summary
The first major televised debate of the EU referendum has concluded in front of an audience in front of a young voters in Glasgow.
• The prospect of another Scottish independence referendum being triggered by a Brexit was raised by the former SNP leader, Alex Salmond, who said that it would take place within the two year period of the UK negotiating for withdrawal from the EU.
“In the circumstances of Scotland being threatened with being dragged out of the EU against their will I think the result would be yes this time,” he said.
“If you have the situation where, in four weeks time, Scotland voters remain and the rest of the UK, or England, drags Scotland out by voting to leave then that would justify in my opinion another referendum because during the referendum in 2014 the people of Scotland were told that voting no would secure Scotland’s position within the European Union.”
• The Ukip MEP Diane James told the debate that “we don’t know” if visas would be needed to travel to the EU in the event of a Brexit.
Both James and the Tory MP, Liam Fox, appearing for the Leave side, focused heavily on immigration in their answers, telling the audience that leaving the EU would be the only way of alleviating pressure on public services and housing.
Describing the EU as a “political construct”, Fox also said that trade and tourism with Europe existed before the EU and would continue afterwards.
• The NHS once again loomed in the referendum debate. Alan Johnson said that the health service would suffer if the UK left the EU and caused the British economy to shrink.
More spending was needed on health, he argued, rather than departing from a bloc in which other members spent more on health.
James made the case for Brexit on the basis that it would potentially make it easier for the UK to bring in more Commonwealth doctors from New Zealand, Australia and Canada “who speak our language”.
Updated
There was at least one vaguely happy viewer it seems, judging from this tweet:
One thing I do like about this debate is the immediate feedback on whether the question was even answered. Usually it's not. #BBCDebate
— Lee-Ann Galvin (@Rokincow) May 26, 2016
It’s over. As political debates of this type go that was a fairly heated one, with perhaps more audience participation than usual.
At first glance, the political panel didn’t commit any gaffes. But neither did they land any significant blows. I’ll post a summary shortly.
Updated
And that, it seems, is that. Derbyshire takes a show of hands to see if the undecided voters in the audience have made up their minds. About half go up.
A young woman says she wants to stay, telling Derbyshire that the arguments about the loss of jobs swayed her.
A young man, who has now decided to vote for Brexit, says that the Remain camp has not given any idea of what type of reforms are needed in the EU.
Updated
Johnson says that if the UK’s economy shrinks then the NHS would suffer. It’s about spending, he argues, adding that funding for the NHS needs to be at the EU average.
“In Europe they spend about 9% of spending on health. We used to be at that but we have gone back to 6%.”
Updated
A student nurse, Dawn, wants to know what advantages there would be to the NHS about leaving the EU.
Diane James comes in with – guess what? – a point linked to immigration: “I might seem like I’m repeating myself.”
“I would far rather see people like yourself go through the nurse training programme and come here,” James tells Dawn. She wants the UK to be able to go to other countries – Commonwealth ones – with which it has a good relationship and whose skill base it can trust.
Updated
Liam Fox says he doesn’t understand what the SNP didn’t understand about their defeat in the Scottish poll. The issue is another case of “fear-based” campaigning, according to the MP.
Updated
Elina Leslie from Dundee asks: if Scotland voted one way and the rest of Britain voted the other way would it lead to another “unwanted” referendum on Scottish independence?
By definition it wouldn’t be unwanted, according to Salmond, who cites Nicola Sturgeon’s view last year that if Scotland was “dragged” out of the EU against its own will then that would provide a democratic mandate for a new poll.
Ok, but when? “It would have to be within the two-year period of the UK negotiating withdrawal from the EU,” Salmond says.
“If Scotland votes Remain and the rest of the UK votes [Leave] then that in my mind would justify another referendum.”
Updated
It seems like Liam Fox is tweeting (or is someone in control of his iPhone) from inside the debate. He’s just retweeted this:
I think @LiamFoxMP is speaking very well. Control who comes to the UK is sensibility? No? #BBCDebate #Brexit
— Ricky (@RMBaird) May 26, 2016
Updated
One viewer is unimpressed with the audience’s attire:
One man is wearing nice trousers. The rest of the audience should be ashamed. #BBCDebate
— Cam to the illa (@camiknickers) May 26, 2016
And another observation:
That's the second #BBCDebate audience member in five mins who's been on #BBCQT very recently.
— Laura Waddell (@lauraewaddell) May 26, 2016
Alan Johnson takes on the Leave argument that travel arrangements would not change for UK citizens in the event of a Brexit.
It could mean the return of watchtowers along the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, he says.
An audience member says he has been thinking about this too and asks what the Leave side have to say about Johnson’s point.
Fox says there have always been bilateral arrangements between the UK and the Republic of Ireland: “Why would that change?”
On this same issue, here’s some coverage recently from across the Irish border and how the referendum campaign is being received there:
Updated
As debates go, this is a fairly boisterous one, perhaps even bad-tempered? The Guardian’s Heather Stewart picks up on this exchange between audience members earlier:
Young woman being barracked by other audience members. "This feels like I'm in House of Commons here and it's PM's questions!" #BBCDebate
— Heather Stewart (@GuardianHeather) May 26, 2016
Updated
Two more questions from the audience now – both linked to travel:
- If we were to leave the EU how difficult would it be to travel in the EU in future?
- What will we lose and gain in terms of travel and international obligations if we leave the EU?
There is a world out there outside of the EU, says Fox, who adds that he and his family used to have holidays in Europe before the union came along.
“The idea that because we are not in the EU that you are not going to be able to have a holiday in Majorca is just...” he says, before Derbyshire says that no one is suggesting that.
Updated
Back to immigration again, courtesy of Diane James, who says that qualified doctors in Commonwealth countries are being denied entry to the UK.
“Why not have someone from the Commonwealth who speaks our language?” she says.
To cheers from Remain supporters in the audience, Salmond comes in with: “If I wanted a qualified doctor then a qualified Lithuanian, Danish, French one would do just now.”
Updated
Not everyone is enjoying the debate at home...
I regret watching this already #bbcdebate
— Calum Young (@calumyoung1) May 26, 2016
This would be better if they had a completely different panel and a completely different audience #BBCDebate
— CKeeling (@DackBlog) May 26, 2016
Have the two sides been scaremongering?
Yes, says a woman in the audience who supports Brexit but dislikes the messages from her own ‘side’: “Some of the noise that we have heard about immigration and how awful it is if we stay.”
“I do want to leave and I think it would be better if we leave.”
However, she wants to ask the Remain side if David Cameron really believes “it will be world war three if we leave then why are we even risking a referendum?”
An audience member from the Remain side says that a massive majority of people are not going to turn out because of the poor quality of the debate.
Updated
Salmond says that there are four weeks to go in the campaign and the Remain side really needs to engage people with positivity: “Leave the scaremongering behind and argue a positive case.”
But project fear won, says Derbyshire. “It works. You lost.”
Cue a short segue into the Scottish referendum’s twists and turns.
Updated
It’s livening up a bit now. “Hang on ... I know you have no interest in the facts,” says Alan Johnson, in a comment that appears to have been directed at Liam Fox.
Fox wants to move things back to the issue of immigration: “When you have an uncontrolled figure then unavoidably put pressure on services. It’s for us in our own country to decide that number.”
Updated
Emily Wood, a music producer from Poole has the third question. She says her disabled mum needs a bungalow but that immigrants are “bumped up the list”. Is she right to want to leave?
Salmond: “I wouldn’t make that connection. If we have a housing crisis we should build more housing.”
He ventures the scenario of Boris Johnson dislocating his jaw from overuse (laughs from audience). The Tory MP wouldn’t turn away help from doctors who had migrated here, he says.
Emily Wood isn’t happy, saying that she didn’t claim that migrants were not happy: “You have not got enough houses now ... so where are you going to put them?
It then kicks off a little bit between Wood and Asma, another audience member who gets a “waheey” from Salmond when she says that she is from Aberdeen.
“When it comes to housing, it is because of the EU that we have certain regulations that allow us to have spacious rooms,” says Asma, who also cites the contribution of her own parents who she says immigrated into the UK.
Updated
Diane James wants to bring in immigration and link it to the house price question: “If we can’t control the number of people coming here you are not going to be able to catch up and you can’t plan.”
Liam Fox says he has no problem with “controlled migration” which he says can bring benefits.
“If you have an uncontrolled number then then the arithmetic tells you that it will put pressure on services, and housing.”
Updated
Second question. Michael Harvey, 26, a cleaner from Glasgow cites George Osborne as that leaving the EU would mean a drop in house prices. “Why is this a bad thing?” he asks.
Alan Johnson replies that he is always puzzled by the British obsession with house prices. All the reports he has mentioned are about the economy “tanking” and walking away from other trading opportunities.
Salmond is in next: “Neither Alan or I are responsible for the utterances of George Osborne. We want to make a positive case for the EU.
“It’s the idea and principle that will win votes.”
Derbyshire asks the audience what they make of the “apocalyptic” forecasts. “Yes or no, do you believe them?” she asks.
It was a loud “no” she says. Not the most scientific way of measuring opinion in the studio perhaps.
Alan Johnson isn’t happy: “It was a loud ‘no’” from over there.”
Updated
To the audience now (it’s fairly fast paced stuff) and a young man says that the EU is “stagnating growth”.
Liam Fox says that economic forecasters nearly always get it wrong and picks up that young audience member’s point.
“It’s not just a question of jobs. It’s the impact it’s having on the wider economy,” he adds, telling the audience that the European economy is now the lowest growing economy in the world apart from Antarctica.
Updated
Alan Johnson is up next, who says that being in the EU means more opportunities for young people.
Alan Johnson: being in the EU means more opportunities for young people #euref #BBCDebate
— Stronger In (@StrongerIn) May 26, 2016
Diane James comes in with some figures highlighting the high rate of unemployment in the EU.
Alex Samond says that he “doesn’t go with the scaremongering stuff,” adding: “The treasury says it’s going to be apocalypse. I don’t believe that.”
“I do believe that the Bank of England says however, which is that there will be less growth.”
He follows up with some of the cultural appeal to voters, drawing a link to a supposed larger European community and mentioning how “you can go to Barcelona and see some great football”.
Updated
First question, from Muniab, an 18-year-old student who asks will the economy be strong enough if the UK leaves?
Liam Fox gets to bat first, and is pressed by Victoria Derbyshire who asks him if Muniab will get a job if Britain leaves the UK.
“If you are good enough to get a job you will get a job,” says Fox, who says that control of stimulating the economy will only come if the UK leaves the EU.
Did it answer the question? “Sort of,” says Muniab (apologies if I misspelled your name).
Updated
We’re hearing first from a few members of the audience. It includes 55 ‘undecideds’ as well as two blocks who have made up their minds.
The second of them – the microphone didn’t pick up her name – says:
“This referendum is really important but not a lot of young people my age are talking about it.”
Updated
So here comes, the referendum campaign’s ‘Yoof’ debate as it were – despite the fact ... er ... that the youngest member of the panel is 54 and the eldest 66.
Updated
Tonight’s debate is the first of eight major televised debates between now and the end of June. The others are:
David Cameron Live. Sky News, June 2, 8pm
After an interview by Faisal Islam, the prime minister will face a question and answer session from an audience, moderated by Kay Burley.
Michael Gove Live. ITV, June 9, 9pm
The same format as the previous night’s show will centre on the justice secretary, who will make the Leave case.
Cameron and Farage Live: The EU referendum. ITV, June 7, 9pm
Hosted by Julie Etchingham, Ukip leader Nigel Farage will take 3o minutes of questions from a studio audience, followed by the prime minister.
The ITV Referendum Debate. ITV, June 9, 8pm
Etchingham will host a programme featuring two teams of political figures from either side of the debate.
Question Time EU Referendum Special with Michael Gove. BBC One, June 15, 6.45pm
David Dimbleby will chair 40 minutes of questions to the justice secretary from an audience at a venue in Nottingham.
Question Time EU Referendum Special with David Cameron. BBC One, June 19, 6.45pm
The same format as the programme with will feature the prime minister four days later in Milton Keynes.
EU Referendum: The Great Debate. BBC One, June 21, 8pm
Dimbleby, Emiy Maitlis and Mishal Husain will host a debate which is expected to feature major figures from either side.
Updated
Good evening and welcome to live coverage of the first major televised debate of the referendum campaign.
Aimed at voters aged 19-to-29, it’s going out at 8pm (UK time) on BBC 1 and will be hosted by Victoria Derbyshire.
On the Remain side:
- Alex Salmond, the former SNP leader and first minster
- Alan Johnson, the former Labour home secretary
On the Leave side:
- Liam Fox, the Tory former defence secretary
- Diane James, a Ukip MEP for the south east of England
Updated
