Summary
We’re winding down the blog now but here’s a summary of this morning’s events:
- Labour leadership challenger Owen Smith caused controversy after saying the UK government would have to negotiate with Islamic State to end the conflict in the Middle East. He made the comments during a head-to-head BBC debate with Jeremy Corbyn.
- Corbyn, who has often been accused of being too willing to negotiate with terrorists, said Isis should not be allowed to take part in talks. His team described Smith’s remarks as “hasty and ill-considered”.
- Smith later rowed back on the comments, saying that Isis would have to renounce all violence and commit to a peaceful settlement, which he acknowledged might never happen.
- During the debate, Corbyn denied that the atmosphere in the party is “toxic” but Smith said there is a narrative that Corbyn is the only pure socialist in the party.
- The Conservatives are 11 points clear of Labour, the widest gap since 2009, according to the latest Ipsos Mori poll. It also showed that May has a net satisfaction rating of +35 after her first month as prime minister, compared with Corbyn’s -33, and the Labour leader’s ratings within his own party are lower than that those of the prime minister among Labour supporters.
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You can read a Guardian panel’s verdict on this morning’s hustings here.
David Wearing writes:
The mere 35 minutes devoted to policy rendered what discussion there was largely superficial. There was one fascinating moment when Smith appeared to advocate talking to Isis, which Corbyn sensibly had ruled out, but the significance of this was missed, and the debate moved on. By the end BBC viewers could have been forgiven for wondering why the press and leading Labour figures have spent so much of the past week talking about Trotskyism.
More clarification from Owen Smith’s team on those Islamic State remarks (via Jessica Elgot).
Owen is clear that there should be absolutely no negotiation with Daesh, or any terrorist group, until they renounce violence, cease all acts of terror and commit themselves to a peaceful settlement.
Owen’s experience of helping to bring about peace in Northern Ireland is that eventually all parties who truly believe in delivering peace have to be around the table. In the Middle East at the moment that clearly doesn’t include - and may never include - Daesh.
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As Labour infighting continues, the latest Ipsos Mori poll has the Tories with their biggest lead over Labour since 2009, 45% to 34%, with the Lib Dems on 7% and Ukip on 6%.
Theresa May has a net satisfaction rating of +35 after her first month as prime minister with 54% satisfied with her performance.
May moves to net 68% @IpsosMORI ratings over Corbyn pic.twitter.com/7HE8yLKPTD
— Mike Smithson (@MSmithsonPB) August 17, 2016
Only one in four are satisfied with Corbyn, who has a net satisfaction score of -33.
Although better than last month when the Labour leader had a net score of -41, he is still well behind Ed Miliband’s rating after his first year as leader in September 2011 (31% were satisfied and 47% dissatisfied).
Corbyn’s ratings among his own party are lower than they are for May, with 39% satisfied and 47% dissatisfied. Among Labour supporters, 45% are satisfied with May and 29% dissatisfied.
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Corbyn: 'Smith hasty and ill-considered on Isis'
Corbyn’s team have seized on Smith’s comments on Islamic State during this morning’s debate, describing them as “hasty and ill-considered”.
Jeremy Corbyn's team go on the attack and suggest Owen Smith is being soft on terrorism. pic.twitter.com/2ASbN0dRqN
— Jim Waterson (@jimwaterson) August 17, 2016
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Smith says Isis must renounce violence to begin negotiations
Owen Smith has rowed back on his comments about negotiating with Islamic State.
In a Facebook Q&A, a member of the public asked:
Will you take your comments about having IS around the table regarding peace talks back? Death cults who exist to destroy the West and kill civilians are not interested in peace talks.
Smith answered:
I agree with you that they’re not interested in peace talks - and that means there can’t be any. There can be absolutely no negotiation with any terrorist group until they renounce violence, cease all acts of terror and commit themselves to a peaceful settlement. My experience of working on the peace process in Northern Ireland, though, is that eventually all parties who truly believe in delivering peace have to be around the table. In the Middle East at the moment that clearly doesn’t include - and may never include - Isis.
It was inevitable that he would clarify his comments but not sure that this will dispel the concerns they raised about his judgment.
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A Q&A with Owen Smith on Facebook is starting now.
The second question posted, predictably, is
Owen - could you clarify your statements on Islamic State? A few Smith supporters, me included, are worried about exactly what you meant.
A number of others have posted questions along similar lines, including these:
In terms of negotiations with ISIS, if you were Prime Minister would you visit Raqqa to negotiate or invite ISIS leaders to Downing Street to discuss peace talks there?
How can you possibly claim to be more electorally popular than Jeremy when you want to sit down at the negotiating table with Jihadi John and ISIS fanatics?
Labour leadership debate – key flash points
Syria
One major bone of contention between the two was international diplomacy around the crisis in Syria. Corbyn said negotiations should involve the Assad government and others in “proximity talks”. He said Islamic State “shouldn’t be round the table, no”.
Smith went much further. He said: “At some point, for us to resolve this, we will need to get people round the table.”
Europe
Corbyn said he would fight against any consequences Brexit would have for workers’ rights, environmental protection and access to the market for British industry, but stopped short of saying Labour should work to prevent Brexit.
Smith says Brexit is “a desperate mistake for our country” and said he would keep making the argument for EU membership.
Student fees
This was a key policy difference that emerged between the two. Smith said he was against fees but favoured a graduate tax as a way of funding universities.
Corbyn said he was opposed to both, and said he would scrap fees and increase public funding of universities via higher corporation taxation.
Economy
Corbyn’s spending plans were vaguer than Smith’s but the debate saw the former work and pensions secretary acknowledge borrowing would increase and the deficit rise for his proposed £200bn infrastructure investment, using long-term loans. He also said tax changes would lead to increased revenue of £13bn.
Asked about his spending and borrowing plans, Corbyn cites his policies of the national investment bank and transport policies which he said would help grow the economy, as well as tax rises. But he was unable to say what extent of economic growth would be required to fully fund his proposals.
Handing over now to my colleague Haroon Siddique who will take you through the political reaction into the afternoon.
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It’s been a lively debate but I think this – as close as Corbyn gets to an angry voice – is one of the best bits.
Jeremy Corbyn telling Owen Smith to be quiet is my new jam #VictoriaLIVE https://t.co/GCLCo4PnRw
— Adam Bienkov (@AdamBienkov) August 17, 2016
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The debate is over now and large swaths of the undecided section of the audience have moved over to support Jeremy Corbyn.
One said it was Corbyn’s commitment to community activism that persuaded him and another by his arguments on child mental health which he stated at the end of the programme.
Another, remaining in the middle, says she is still genuinely unconvinced, and has decided she will abstain.
Updated
Smith’s comments on Islamic State are creating a bit of a stir on social media. Here’s what he said in full:
My view is that ultimately all solutions to these crises do come about through dialogue.
So eventually if we are to try and solve this, all of the actors do need to be involved. At the moment, Isil are clearly not interested in negotiating.
At some point, for us to resolve this, we will need to get people round the table.
Owen Smith is channelling Jonathan Powell on the inevitability of negotiations. But every now and again someone is unroundthetableable.
— David Aaronovitch (@DAaronovitch) August 17, 2016
Appalling answer from Owen Smith too. Praises dialogue, then says "all the actors have to be involved". Actually wants Isis round the table.
— Ian Dunt (@IanDunt) August 17, 2016
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Student tuition fees or graduate tax?
Smith says that he would abolish student tuition fees and introduce a graduate tax.
Corbyn says he does not believe in a graduate tax because it is still a charge on students. He says he will pay for more public funding of universities through higher corporation tax.
Smith says Brexit is “a desperate mistake for our country” and says the crucial question is now about the future. “The question for Jeremy and for me in the event that Liam Fox and David Davis sell down the river our protections...”
Corbyn says there are red lines on market access, environmental protections, workers’ rights which he will challenge. “Are we to become a bargain basement, deeply unequal island off the coast of Europe?
“We have to have those protections enshrined in UK law and we have to market access for British manufacturing.”
Corbyn says he is in favour of immigration, but reiterates his proposal for a migrant impact fund. “It is this government [not immigration] destroying public services in this country.”
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Should Corbyn take responsibility for the EU referendum?
One questioner asks if Corbyn takes responsibility for losing the Brexit vote, and why has he not resigned?
Corbyn says two-thirds of Labour supporters voted to remain. “The message is that votes were very different in parts of the country,” he said. He is asked again if he takes responsibility. Huge shouts in the audience about this. Another audience member says David Cameron came across far more passionately than Corbyn.
The Labour leader said he had campaigned on the benefits of workers’ rights from being members of the EU, but says he also pointed out that the European Union had to change, including on state aid and on democratic accountabilities.
One 19-year-old member says that he used to be a Brexiter but had been won over by Corbyn’s argument to stay in and reform. “It was Jeremy’s tone that got me to change my mind.”
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Smith says he would get Islamic State 'round the table'
Both are now being asked if they would push that theoretical button to use nuclear weapons and their position on Trident.
Smith says he is not a unilateralist. “I used to hold that view, I don’t any longer. I think we should negotiate our way to get rid of nuclear weapons. “The country wants the Labour party to be serious about the security of our country.”
Corbyn says the use of nuclear weapons is “unconscionable”. He says Britain has to fulfil its non-proliferation obligations.
“I do not see how nuclear weapons are dealing with the issues in Syria, Libya or would have in the US on that disastrous day in 9/11.”
Corbyn says it is “obvious” that negotiations in Syria should involve the Assad regime in Syria and others should be involved in proximity talks. He says that Islamic State “are not going to be round the table”.
Smith says that dialogue is the solution, to talk to all parties, though he says he does not believe IS are currently interested in negotiating. “At some point, to resolve this, we will need to get people round the table.”
This point, made by Paul Mason, rings true.
Owen Smith seems to suggest ISIS could be "round the table" for Syrian peace talks - Corbyn rejects. Imagine media if other way round?
— Paul Mason (@paulmasonnews) August 17, 2016
Incredible moment. Owen Smith says we need to get ISIS "round the table", Corbyn takes tougher stance: https://t.co/7qqP5kkGQX
— Alex Wickham (@WikiGuido) August 17, 2016
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How would you pay for your spending commitments?
Corbyn cites his policies of the national investment bank and transport policies which he said would help grow the economy, as well as tax rises. He is asked what growth would be needed for his investment. “It’s hard to predict,” he says.
“Infrastructure projects generate growth, childcare generates growth,” he says. “We have to invest a lot more in order to achieve the economic success we need.”
Smith said he would raise £13bn in taxes through introducing a wealth tax, reintroducing the 50p rate and not cutting inheritance or corporation tax. “All of the infrastructure investment would be through borrowing in long-term government gilts,” he said.
Smith says he acknowledges that will mean the deficit will grow. “We are passing on failing infrastructure... it’s crucial we invest, we can’t afford not to.”
- This acknowledgment by Smith on the deficit and spending really shows how far we have come since 2015’s general election.
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Owen Smith is asked about being a “backstabber” in resigning and challenging Corbyn.
Smith said he would feel he was letting his constituency down unless he did. “We have got to be in power, and the principal reason I resigned is I do not believe that we can win power under Jeremy. Otherwise I am wasting my time as an MP.”
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It’s quiz time! Quickfire questions to the candidates …
Smith correctly names Taylor Swift and Justin Bieber from a picture, he gets the score of the Wales v Belgium game in Euro 2016 wrong, but says that he had “had a few in the pub”.
The best thing about Corbyn is “his nice line in cream suits”, he says. The worst thing is “he’s not a leader”.
Owen Smith can however name Swifty&Bieber. But fails on Wales scores in Euros. Lads it out by saying he was in the pub so memory hazy. 🍻
— Kate Proctor (@KateProctorYP) August 17, 2016
Corbyn is asked to pick between Blairism and Trotskyism. “Neither.”
He names the Northern Irish peace process, the minimum wage and the Human Rights Act as Tony Blair’s greatest achievements.
He says he is a feminist, but does not cry often. He is asked to look at a photo of Ant and Dec, but he does not know who they are. “I apologise humbly to Ant and Dec,” he says.
The best thing about Owen Smith is he is “passionate and direct and gets very excited”. The worse thing is that “he resigned from the shadow cabinet”.
Updated
There’s another hour of debate to go, and you can now listen to the debate on BBC 5Live. Here’s the verdict at the halfway point from the Twitter commentariat.
From author Matt Haig:
If the Labour Party was a person right now it'd be prescribed a lot of lithium and long walks in open spaces and yogic breathing.
— Matt Haig (@matthaig1) August 17, 2016
From New Statesman writer Liam Young:
Owen Smith doesn't think there's a divide between the PLP and the Labour Party membership. Incredible. #VictoriaLIVE
— Liam Young (@liamyoung) August 17, 2016
From the FT’s Sebastian Payne:
"Abuse has no place in any political party" has to be one of the most meaningless tropes of our time #VictoriaLIVE
— Sebastian Payne (@SebastianEPayne) August 17, 2016
From the BBC’s Adam Fleming:
So far the drama on #VictoriaLIVE is coming from the audience rather than @jeremycorbyn and @owensmith2016
— Adam Fleming (@adamfleming) August 17, 2016
From the Spectator’s Isabel Hardman:
Nearly an hour in and this hustings hasn't yet finished talking about Labour's internal misery to move on to discuss policy.
— Isabel Hardman (@IsabelHardman) August 17, 2016
And this astute observation from Sky News’ Mollie Goodfellow:
This from the #VictoriaLIVE Hustings VT looks like Corbyn is the main character in a metropolitan sitcom pic.twitter.com/qhVkWQqF25
— Mollie Goodfellow (@hansmollman) August 17, 2016
How does Labour plan to take votes back from the Conservatives?
Corbyn says the party must come together to take the fight to the Tories. “On health, on education, we can do that.”
Smith says there is not too much difference between him and Jeremy. He names Europe as one difference. But he says the poll performance shows an election would decimate the Labour party.
Smith says one of the issues Corbyn takes credit for is personal independence payments, which he says was his initiative as shadow work and pensions secretary. “I had one meeting in nine months with Jeremy.”
Corbyn says it was “we” that defeated the Tories, not just Smith.
Both are asked about how responsible they are – on a scale of 1 to 100, how responsible they personally are for the current crisis.
Smith says he reckons around 3% responsible. “We were behind in about 85% of the polls before the leadership challenge.”
Corbyn says he is “not going to start putting figures on it” but says he has successfully reached out to other MPs, citing Andy Burnham as someone he has worked well with.
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One audience member says Labour MPs are only trying to further their own careers. “They should remember they are there to represent us, ordinary Labour members,” he said.
Smith says he represents the Labour manifesto, but he also represents his entire constituency in Pontypridd, not just Labour members. It’s a point anti-Corbyn MPs often make.
MPs are elected by the electorate, constituents. Next #VictoriaLIVE
— Tom Blenkinsop (@TomBlenkinsop) August 17, 2016
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Chakrabarti offered peerage 'after Brexit vote'
Corbyn said he did not offer Shami Chakrabarti a peerage before her independent review into antisemitism. He offered it to her after Cameron resigned, he said, because he understood that would mean that Labour would get one House of Lords nomination. She accepted it then, he said.
He defends her appointment to the House of Lords. “She is a person of intellectual rigour and strength. She proposed a series of rule changes and education, which was well received by the national executive.”
Corbyn is asked about why just 4% of the Jewish Labour Movement endorsed his leadership in their nominations. Corbyn says he would meet the JLM if he won again. “I would reach out to them, just as I am reaching out to all communities,” he said.
Smith says he has met Jewish representatives over the past few months and said that many do not feel the Chakrabarti report is adequate. One audience member sighs loudly. Smith says no one should be sighing over concerns of antisemitism.
“They [the Jewish community] have traditionally looked to Labour to represent them, we should all be concerned about this.”
Updated
One woman in the audience says she has been a member for three years. The debate in the party is so toxic, she says, she would feel “safer going to Conservative party conference as a Labour supporter than going to Labour conference as an Owen Smith supporter”.
She said her attendance at a Young Labour conference had been fraught with angry debates, with one person walking out in tears.
Corbyn says abuse on social media is unacceptable, and that people forget posts on Twitter and Facebook are there for all time and for all to see. He also says that he attends large numbers of Labour events where there is intelligent and respectful debate.
He denies the atmosphere is toxic, but the audience is asked if it is and there is a resounding “yes”.
Smith says there is a narrative that Corbyn is the only pure socialist in the party. “I’ve never considered myself a Blairite, I’ve always been a socialist, but the way I’ve been portrayed...”
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One audience member points to the case of Thangam Debbonaire, the MP who says she was mistakenly given a job which was then taken away while she had cancer treatment, as well as social media abuse of MPs.
Corbyn says that abuse will be dealt with by the party, and new rules will soon be in place to tackle it.
The questioner says that Corbyn always responds by saying he’d been abused too and Derbyshire raises his Observer interview where Corbyn said that he “ignores abuse”.
Corbyn denies he said that others should do that, he says he ignores it when it happens to him.
Smith said that he would go straight for expulsions of abusive members. “Lots of my female colleagues feel it wasn’t taken seriously enough. We’re the Labour party and we’re speaking on national television about antisemitism.”
Smith says there are shades of hard-left opinion in the UK which have “drifted into antisemitic abuse because of concerns about Israel”. He says that people feel “that at very best we have been insensitive to those concerns … for us to be mired in a debate about antisemitism is shaming to us all.”
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How will you unite the membership and MPs?
Smith says that as leader, he will stress there is “more that unites us than divides us”. He says that there is not such a great chasm – but there is laughter in the audience at that remark. Smith says this is about leadership qualities, first and foremost.
Corbyn says that he was elected leader of the party and appointed a shadow cabinet with a broad church of opinions. He says he would do the same again and remind Labour MPs of their responsibilities to work together on education, health and austerity.
“I was faced with a period of organised and orchestrated resignations,” he says. He says if elected again he will reach out again, because there are a lot of issues they agree on. There were a lot of groans about the idea of orchestrated resignations.
Updated
Corbyn offers to share his allotment with Smith
We have some common ground between the two candidates – both are allotment lovers.
Smith says he gave his up last year when his wife started back at work as a schoolteacher. “I’m just as fond as Jeremy of growing beans.”
Corbyn then offered to share his allotment with his fellow green-fingered colleague. Allotment plots are genuinely extremely in demand so this is a kind offer.
Owen Smith looks frozen in fear as Jeremy Corbyn suggests they could share an allotment.
— Isabel Hardman (@IsabelHardman) August 17, 2016
Allotment lovers, how will you choose? They BOTH have one #VictoriaLIVE #DiggingForBritain
— Julia Rampen (@JuliaRampenMM) August 17, 2016
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Peter Gates, who said he works at the University of Nottingham, says he is supporting Corbyn because he is “a throughly decent bloke who doesn’t deserve to be treated in the way he has been treated”.
Steve, a solicitor who says he is a longstanding member, says he is voting for Smith. “Labour exists to get things done. If we don’t win power, we won’t get things done. We are in danger of becoming a narrow church.”
He also says he is passionately pro-Europe and says he was very disappointed in Corbyn’s campaign during the referendum. “We should fight for our place in Europe, it is too important.”
Laura, a new member from Lincoln, says she feels she is being pigeon-holed about joining. “I feel my membership and values are questioned,” she said.
Another member says that she is not sure either can lead the party. “You are here to represent the electorate and the whole thing seems to have degenerated into a playground squabble. I hope one of you will convince me you are capable of taking on the Conservatives.”
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In a sentence, how confident are you that you are going to win?
Corbyn says that he is confident after the support from local Labour parties and says he is touring the country going to both Labour supporting areas and safe Tory seats.
Smith says a lot of the constituency votes were “narrow” and says he is confident he will persuade people that Labour needs to “get ready for government” by changing the leader.
The audiences at the two hustings so far have appeared to be more pro-Corbyn.
This being the BBC, there’s been an effort to evenly split the 100-strong audience between Corbyn supporters, Smith supporters, undecided Labour members and floating voters.
Audience members so far have declared support for both men, but at least one said they planned to vote Conservative for the first time because they found neither an inspiring choice.
That was something Victoria Derbyshire said would be explored later in the debate. Both the candidates are here and neither is wearing a tie.
The debate is live on the BBC News Channel, which can be watched online here.
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As we prepare to hear from the two candidates, it’s been mixed news for both of them at the start of the week.
Jeremy Corbyn swept the board of nominations from the constituency Labour parties, taking 84% of endorsements from the local parties who chose to nominate.
Constituency nominations have predicted the winner of a leadership contest among members every year since 1992, though Owen Smith supporters have pointed out that the membership has soared and also is likely to have shifted over the course of the last 12 months.
However, among the general public, a BMG poll last night gave Smith a 24-point lead over Corbyn on the question of who would make the better prime minister.
The poll for the Evening Standard found 58% of the public saying Smith would be a better party leader, 16 points ahead of Corbyn. When it came to who would make the best prime minister, 62% said Smith with 38% saying the current Labour leader.
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Labour leadership debate - live
Good morning, we’re covering the third Labour leadership debate which is on the BBC’s Victoria Derbyshire show from 9am, from Nottingham.
Here’s the scene in the studio this morning where a studio audience are waiting for Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith.
Awaiting these two gentlemen for our Labour leadership debate starting at 9am @BBCNews & online #VictoriaLIVE pic.twitter.com/0A98wJZtUA
— Victoria Derbyshire (@vicderbyshire) August 17, 2016
Last week in Gateshead, the pair clashed over Europe, where Smith accused the Labour leader of being “10 out of 10” for leaving once the result of the Brexit vote was known.
Smith has spent the week campaigning on the NHS, pledging to raise the NHS budget by 4% each year under a Labour government led by him.
Corbyn focussed a day of campaigning on transport on Tuesday, reiterating his commitment to bringing the railways back into public ownership and extend public control over bus networks, allowing local authorities to have franchising power and establish municipal bus companies.
I’ll try to monitor comments below but you can also find me on Twitter @jessicaelgot.
