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The Guardian - UK
The Guardian - UK
Politics
Andrew Sparrow

Corbyn speaks to Fabians as Dugher says unilateralism will lead to 'electoral disaster' - Politics live

Jeremy Corbyn: proposed measures to ensure equal pay will bring ‘fairer society’ – video

Summary

  • Jeremy Corbyn has used a wide-ranging and well-received speech to the Fabian Society to announce proposals to impose significant restraints on business to promote equality. Stressing that these are not yet firm policy commitments, he floated the idea of banning firms from paying dividends if they do not pay the living wage, and imposing a fixed ratio for the maximum gap allowed between the highest salary and the lowest salary in a company. (See 9.58am.) Business organisations criticised his plans, and Tim Farron, the Lib Dem leader, accused Corbyn of being committed to “ripping apart our business sector in pursuit of an egalitarian fantasy”. (See 2.12pm.)
  • Michael Dugher, who was sacked by Corbyn as shadow culture secretary last week, has said that adopting unilateral disarmament as Labour policy would lead to “electoral disaster”. (See 12.01pm.) In a speech to a meeting of Labour First, a group on the right of the party, he also said the May elections would be a decisive test for Corbyn, especially in Scotland and Wales. Dugher’s warning could be seen as a hint that Corbyn may face some sort of challenge to his leadership from Dugher and his allies if Labour under-performs in those contests. (See 10.31am.)

That’s all from me for today.

Thanks for the comments.

Khan says he wants to win the mayoral election so that he can show how good a Labour administration would be.

Khan says he will never apologise for talking about his background. This is what helps to explain how he is, he says.

He lives five minutes’ away from his mum, he says. All her children live nearby. But today’s young people in London have no chance of being able to buy homes near their parents, he says.

Khan says Transport for London owns land 16 times the size of Hyde Park. Some of that should be made available for housing, he says. He says the Hong Kong bus company owns more money from property than it does from fares.

Khan says Londoners pay £5m a year towards the cable car launched by Boris Johnson. If it cannot survive without subsidy, he will close it, he says.

Farron accuses Corbyn of pursuing 'an egalitarian fantasy'

Tim Farron, the Lib Dem leader, has issued a statement responding to Jeremy Corbyn’s speech.

Corbyn seems committed on ripping apart our business sector in pursuit of an egalitarian fantasy. There is an alternative, we can have a fair society and the economy to support it.

Clearly everyone who works must be paid a living wage and we must fight exploitation in all its forms, but we can achieve this without threatening our economy and making enemies of entrepreneurs and business owners.

Unfortunately Corbyn’s anti-business policies will ensure that no company has the budget to pay the wages their employees deserve.

Q: What’s your relationship with Jeremy Corbyn like? He is not on your leaflets much. Zac Goldsmith is presenting you as a Corbynite.

Khan says we can guess what Goldsmith meant when he called Khan “radical” and “divisive”.

He says Corbyn has a huge mandate. They campaigned together on the living wage. Corbyn persuaded him to wear an Arsenal scarf - and he has had more stick for that than for most things.

He agrees with Corbyn on some things, he says.

But he will say so when he does not agree with Corbyn. Corbyn encourages that style of politics, he says. If you look at cities around the world, they do not elect “patsies” as mayors. He says he would say that if Ed Miliband were Labour leader, or Gordon Brown or Tony Blair.

Sadiq Khan's Q&A

Sadiq Khan, the Labour candidate for mayor of London, is being interviewed now by Heather Stewart, the newly-appointed new Guardian political editor (with Anushka Asthana - it’s a job share).

Q: Zac Goldsmith says he will be able to work better with a Tory chancellor.

Khan says Goldsmith claims to be a maverick, independent candidate. But he also claims to be best friends with David Cameron and George Osborne. He cannot have it both ways, he says.

Nandy, Starmer and Jarvis - Key points

The Future left panel featured Lisa Nandy, the shadow energy secretary, Sir Keir Starmer, a shadow Home Office minister and Dan Jarvis. All three are seen as potential leadership candidates in the future and so some saw this as an early hustings event.

If so, there was no winner. It was friendly and collegiate, and no significant policy differences opened up.

Here are some of the points that were said.

Keir Starmer

  • Starmer said Labour had to own the future. That was what it did in 1997, he said.
  • He said Labour did not have “bold” policies in 2015.

We didn’t have a bold, ambitious, radical project in 2015 that was rejected. We did not have a project at all. There has been a gap for a long time in our thinking in this party and now is time to fill it.

  • He said Labour should devolve power.

Dan Jarvis

  • Jarvis said Labour did not offer “a radical and realistic alternative” to the Tories.
  • He said the principle of contribution to be boosted in the welfare system.
  • He said he wanted to devolve power more.
  • He said Labour needed a wider range of candidates.
  • He said Labour needed to promote “responsible capitalism”.

Lisa Nandy

  • Nandy said Labour had to recognise the country was changing. For example more and more people were self-employed, she said. She praised Jeremy Corbyn for mentioning the self-employed in his conference speech in the autumn.

Too often in the past Labour had failed to acknowledge social change, she said.

I think we’ve had to little to say to those people who are struggling with globalisation, but also to those people who are trying to harness and utilise it, for their own ends and for the greater good.

  • She said the challenge posed by climate change required solutions from the state and from the private sector.

A challenge on this scale will require every ounce of dynamism and energy and investment from both the public and the private sector ... As Harold Wilson almost said half a century ago, if there had never been a case for socialism before, global warming would have created it.

  • She said the party had to reach out to people who did not agree with it.

IoD describes Corbyn's proposed dividend/living wage rule as 'completely potty'

Simon Walker, director general of the Institute of Directors, has described Jeremy Corbyn’s proposal to curb the right of firms to pay dividends if they do not pay their workers the living wage as “completely potty”. According to the Sun, he said:

This is completely potty.

It is hard to believe that any serious politician would suggest something so bizarre and damaging to ordinary people.

Paying a dividend is not an immoral act, pensioners are dependent on them for their retirement. Without them investment in British companies would dry up.

Lisa Nandy tells the session that she thinks Labour needs to put the issue of proportional representation on the table. She has some concerns about it, she says. But she thinks the party has to accept the need to work with people who do not identify as Labour. She is currently working on a book on this theme with the Green MP Caroline Lucas, she says.

Dan Jarvis has just told the “Future left” panel that Labour will not win unless it is trusted to manage the country’s finances properly and to keep the country safe. That was not a criticism of anyone, he said; just a statement of reality.

Tom Baldwin's speech

Tom Baldwin, who was Ed Miliband’s director of communications in the last parliament, gave one of the best speeches in the session just after Jeremy Corbyn’s speech. Here are some of the best lines.

  • Baldwin said that Labour should have done more to defend its record in office when Ed Miliband was leader. He said this in private at the time, he said.

I’ll say here what I said privately then; that failing to defend our record with consistency and passion was a mistake ... [Failing to defend the party’s record] has seen Labour itself contributing to a general undermining of our brand. You would not catch the Tories doing it. Look at how even in the most modernising phases they still celebrate Thatcher, and increasingly Major. You would not catch the Tories doing it any more than you would find a car manufacturer trying to sell you a new model with adverts saying all its recent cars have been crap. But that is what voters hear when three successive Labour leaders have in different ways spent their time telling the world what’s wrong with Tony Blair.

  • He said that “too many people around Jeremy Corbyn act as if the rot set in, not with Ed, or Gordon, or Tony, or John Smith, but with Neil Kinnock 33 years ago.”

If some of these people were car manufacturers, they would be making the Austin Allegro and trying to flog you that.

  • He said that Labout was “back in year zero, not shouting from the rooftops [about the Tories], but shouting at each other.”
  • He said Labour “won’t own the future if we are at least on nodding terms with our own past”.

Updated

Lisa Nandy, the shadow energy secretary, has finished her speech at the start of the “Future left” session. Her best line came when she adapted a quote from Harold Wilson; if there wasn’t a case for socialism before, climate change would have created it, she said.

In the panel session currently underway the Labour MP Stella Creasy came out with perhaps the most striking fact of the session: that Tony Blair never sent a single email during his term in office. She was making a point about how quickly the world has changed. To back this up, she had two other facts: that a third of divorces involve Facebook, and that she owns jumpers older than the internet.

She said it was important for the party to have a healthy debate.

She explained that she was in politics to spread opportunity.

And this is what she said about Trident.

Dugher says adopting unilateral disarmament will lead to 'electoral disaster'

Michael Dugher, the former shadow culture secretary, has now delivered his full speech to Labour First, a group on the party’s right. As well as saying that the May elections would be a decisive test for Jeremy Corbyn (see 10.31am), he also launched a very strong attack on Corbyn’s position on Trident. Here are the key points.

  • Dugher said that adopting unilateral disarmament as party policy would lead to “electoral disaster”.

There are real dangers here for Labour. For nearly three decades Labour has been committed to multilateral disarmament. We tried unilateralism before. It ended in electoral disaster then. There is no evidence to suggest that it won’t end in disaster again. And running online plebiscites of a selection of party activists won’t change these facts of political life.

  • He said Corbyn should be “taking the fight to the Tories”, not finding an internal policy battle over Trident.

We should be taking the fight to the Tories and not picking another fight with ourselves. The decision to open up a divisive debate within the party about the renewal of trident is such an unnecessary distraction ... How many days are we planning to waste having a self-indulgent debate about Trident? ...

I also say this to Jeremy and the party leadership: if you really want to change our policies, pick the issues that matter to people outside the meeting halls, not just to those inside. Pick the issues where we can unite and where we can get back in touch with the public – let’s not split the party and drive yet another wedge between the party and the country.

  • He said Corbyn could not use the party membership to bypass the Labour policy making process over Trident. He was referring to Corbyn’s plan to ballot the membership over Trident. He said:

Labour party policy is very, very clear: we are in favour multi-lateral disarmament and the renewal of Trident. We make policy in the party through our democratic structures - not by diktats from the centre. You cannot shortcut the Party’s democratic structures – to do so is to perform a grave disservice to our members.

Deborah Mattinson's speech

At the conference we’re now in the panel session with Owen Jones, Deborah Mattinson, Tom Baldwin and Stella Creasy.

Mattinson, the Britain Thinks pollster who used to do polling for Labour, has just finished her speech. And it was very bleak for the audience. (She got a round of applause at the end, but said she had expected to get booed.) Here are the main points.

  • Mattinson said the most important job for an opposition was to be seen as a likely election winner.
  • She said the polls were probably still overstating Labour’s support. In reality, the party was probably doing worse than the polls say.
  • She said a party could not win if it was behind on the issue of who is most trusted on the economy.
  • She said the popularity of the leader was a better guide to which party would win an election than state-of-the-party polls. And she cited this chart from the blogger Mike Smithson.
  • She said that when she conducted focus groups after the election, she found that people did not think Labour would deliver for them.
  • She said that she worked with corporations and consultants and that they were only interested in the Tories, because they assumed Labour would lose the next election.
  • She said boundary changes would make it even harder for Labour to win next time.

Updated

This is what four other journalists are saying about Jeremy Corbyn’s speech on Twitter.

From Channel 4 News’s Paul Mason

From the New Statesman’s George Eaton

From the Sunday Times’s James Lyons

From LabourList’s Conor Pope

Corbyn's speech - Snap verdict

Corbyn’s speech - Snap verdict: A bit rambling, I thought, and devoid of rhetorical flourishes (not that that particularly matters), but it was very warmly received. In story terms, Corbyn did not have anything new to say beyond what his office briefed overnight. But the speech was a reminder of just how substantial the Corbyn agenda is, at least potentially. Rail nationalisation, breaking up the energy market with a focus on German-style community provision, a “lifelong education service”, an extension of childcare, an extension of workers’ rights, a big housebuilding programme - these proposals were all floated by Corbyn during his leadership campaign (the policy documents are still on his website) but they have been overlooked, partly because for some of that campaign Corbyn was not seen as a serious contender. Corbyn still sounds quite tentative about many of his ideas - he kept stressing that they were suggestions, not adopted policy - but they do have genuine transformative potential, and this speech underlined that.

Jeremy Corbyn addressing the Fabian conference
Jeremy Corbyn addressing the Fabian conference Photograph: Jonathan Brady/PA

Updated

Corbyn says his plans to give members a greater role in policy making are similar to Ed Miliband’s decision to let more people get involved in selecting the leader.

Ed Miliband expanded the vote to elect the Leader – empowering members and supporters … I want to do the same with our policy-making … We all have ideas, we all have a vision for a fairer Britain and a fairer world …

Labour will be stronger and more in touch with our communities when it hears from its greatest strength … our members, supporters and affiliates.

And he ends saying only Labour can offer a fairer Britain.

Only Labour can offer a vision of a fairer Britain … Let’s work together to create and deliver that fairer Britain.

Corbyn’s speech is warmly applauded. Some people rise to give him a standing ovation, they are in a minority.

And that’s it. He is not taking questions.

Corbyn stresses that these are just proposals. Members will make party policy, he says.

These are all only suggestions … You – Labour Party members, affiliates and supporters – in this Hall and beyond … You will decide what our policies are … policy made by small cliques in small rooms often only brings small returns.

Corbyn floats the proposals for fixed pay ratios in corporations and a restriction on firms paying dividends if they do not pay the living wage that were briefed in advance. See 9.58am.

And he goes on.

Too much of the proceeds of growth have accumulated to those at the top … Not only is this unfair, it actually holds back growth – as OECD research has found … A more equal society is not only fairer, it does better in terms of economic stability and wealth creation.

And he says workers should be protected from exploitation in the workplace from day one.

In workplaces too we must ensure that fairness is hardwired … the scandal of SportsDirect has shocked people … So as well as repealing the Tory Trade Union Act when it becomes law, we need a set of rights for all workers from day one to stop exploitation … It was Beatrice Webb who coined the term ‘collective bargaining’ – recognising that together we bargain, alone we beg.

Corbyn calls for universal childcare, saying fairness should exist in the nursery, not just in the workplace.

Corbyn proposes a lifelong education service

Corbyn calls for health and social care to be integrated.

And he calls for a lifelong education service.

Creating a lifelong education service, so that opportunity is available to all throughout our lives … recognising that in the modern era we need to be able to re-train and re-skill our workforce as technology evolves, and industries change … Again this is in sharp contrast to this government’s unfair slashing of college funding and the adult education budget.

Corbyn calls for more energy suppliers to be locally owned

Corbyn turns to policy. He stresses that these ideas are “under discussion”.

He starts with the railways.

We are committed to a publicly owned railway, to bring down fares and to get investment in a modern railway – which would be governed not remotely from Whitehall, but by passengers, rail workers and politicians (local and national).

And he turns to energy.

To democratic control of energy, not as an end in itself, but to bring down costs and to transition to carbon-free energy … Do you know half of German energy suppliers are owned by local authorities, communities and small businesses … There are now over 180 German towns and cities taking over their local electricity grids, selling themselves cleaner (and cheaper) electricity they increasingly produce for themselves … That is something we as Labour should want to emulate – and the most innovative Labour councils are starting to do so.

Corbyn turns to Europe.

Labour backs Britain’s continued EU membership as the best framework for trade and co-operation in the 21st-century … along with the protection of human rights through the European Convention.

But we need to make EU decision-making more accountable to its people … put jobs and growth at the heart of European policy … strengthen workers’ rights in a real social Europe, and end the pressure to privatise services.

Corbyn criticises the Tories for abandoning the steel industry.

Their laissez-faire attitude to the steel industry could let a downturn become a death spiral in that sector … While other governments across Europe acted to protect their industry, the Tories let ours close, let jobs go, let communities suffer.

In Europe other countries have rejected this approach, he says.

Look across Europe and the support was there – in some cases they took their plants into public ownership to protect vital industry … they offered schemes to help with energy costs … and they have an industrial strategy and procurement strategies … They don’t let whole regions sink into decline.

Corbyn is now recalling his visits to people affected by the recent floods.

Hidden among the fake concern for ‘balancing the books’, is the same hoary old Tory ideology – to shrink the state, to shrink fairness.

Look at the floods – flood defence schemes up and down the country cut back because of a political ideology that says the state must be shrunk.

I saw the consequences of that. I met the families who had lost their personal possessions: their photos, children’s toys, family pets – in homes that now have the foul stench of sewage-polluted floodwater.

Corbyn says the Tories have a different notion of fairness.

Theirs is the party funded by hedge funds … backed by a press owned by multi-millionaire or even billionaire tax avoiders …

Their concept of fairness is of a very different order to ours … Fairness for only a few is not fairness, but privilege.

Corbyn goes on to criticise other Tory moves that will constrain Labour.

By directly attacking Labour’s funding through their trade union bill … and by cutting public Short money support for opposition parties’ research, they are deliberately setting out to constrain democratic accountability.

Add to that their “gagging law”, which prevents charities, unions and thinktanks from taking part in political debate near election time …

Their threats to use the BBC’s charter renewal to hack away at its independence;

Their packing of the House of Lords with Tory peers;

Their moves to restrict the powers of local councils …

… It all adds up to a serious attack on democratic rights and freedoms.


Corbyn accuses Tories of 'gerrymandering' the electoral system

Corbyn says fair elections are under attack.

Having narrowly won the general election, the Tories are now trying to rig the system to keep themselves in power, and weaken opposition … both inside and outside parliament.

Late last year they drove through a new voter registration scheme that will slash the number of young and inner-city voters … And later this Parliament they will cut the number of parliamentary seats … The Conservatives are gerrymandering the electoral system to benefit themselves.

Corbyn says Labour governments have delivered fairness.

Fairness isn’t just an abstract morality that we claim, it is something we together – as Labour – have delivered over decades in Britain.

Labour governments only became possible when everyone had the vote … men and women … working class as well as the propertied classes … It was the labour movement, the trade unions, the Suffragettes and our Party that campaigned for that to happen.

Universal suffrage is inherently fair ... And we used its electoral force to create a fairer Britain ...

Anyone can wrap their policies in the language of ‘fairness’, it is only Labour that has delivered fairness through institutions and laws.

This last line gets the first round of applause of the speech.

Corbyn says his politics driven by need to campaign against lack of fairness

Corbyn says lack of fairness is what has driven people like him into politics.

David Cameron is burdening today’s young adults with more debt than ever … Shackling them with a lifelong fetter on their ability to live independently, to rent or buy their own home, to start a family.

They don’t believe it’s fair … But many people believe the economic crash means cuts have to be made … Not fair, but necessary.

That is our failure … Our failure to offer a convincing alternative to people who already agreed with us that it isn’t fair … How was it that we couldn’t make a convincing case that fairness was necessary?

Jeremy Corbyn's speech

Jeremy Corbyn has arrived. He is getting a very warm welcome.

He says that the first hustings of the campaign took place here, in this very room.

(Actually, it was in the room down below - I was blogging. Andrew Harrop said earlier it became obvious from that moment that Corbyn could win, but I don’t remember it like that. At the the assumption in the room seemed to be that Andy Burnham or Yvette Cooper would win.)

At the Institute for Education in north London the Fabian Society conference has opened. Andrew Harrop, the society’s general secretary, said it was the thinktank’s best attended event ever.

He also said its membership, at 7,000, was its highest ever.

And he urged the party to stop focusing on itself and to start looking outwards.

Dugher to suggest May elections are a decisive test for Corbyn

Michael Dugher, who was sacked as shadow culture secretary last week, will be giving a speech to Labour First, a group on the right of the party, later this morning. Some extracts have been released in advance, and it is clear the speech will contain a warning to Jeremy Corbyn. Here are the key points from the extracts we’ve seen.

  • Dugher will suggest that the May elections are a decisive test for Corbyn.

The elections in May are a huge test for all of us in the Party but they will also provide the biggest indication yet as to whether Labour is heading in the right direction. We will be able to see what the answer is to that big question: after last year’s devastating defeat in the general election, are we getting back in touch with the country or are we moving even further away from the public?

  • He will argue that Labour has to do well in all parts of the country in May, not just in London.

We face a major electoral test in every corner of the country. The London Mayoral election will be extremely important. We must win in London, but it won’t be good enough just to win in London. Labour has to hold onto the Welsh Government. We will also see if Jeremy is right in his conviction that his left wing appeal is the key to turning things around in Scotland. And we have to demonstrate that we are capable under Jeremy’s leadership of winning new support and hundreds of new council seats in England. Any Party that really is on its way back to power nationally does so on the back of winning in local government.

  • He will say Labour figures should focus on fighting the Tories, not on fighting each other.

Let’s turn our fire on the Tories, not on ourselves. No one should be in any doubt that this is the most rotten, callous, incompetent Conservative government that we ever seen ...

I want Labour to become a party again that the Tories genuinely fear. The biggest gift that we can give to the Tories is to deliver a Labour Party that is uncompetitive ...

We’ve got to show that we can start winning again. We must pick fights with the Tories, not with ourselves. We must focus on the country, not on ourselves. That is how you unite the Party.

Michael Dugher
Michael Dugher Photograph: Anthony Devlin/PA

What is the living wage?

You probably all know this, but here’s a quick reminder just in case

Living wage

The living wage is a voluntary minimum rate, set by the Living Wage Foundation at a rate intended to provide a decent minimum which a worker could live on. It is currently £9.40 in London and £8.25 outside. Progressive employers commit themselves to paying it voluntarily. This is what Jeremy Corbyn is talking about when he floats the idea of stopping firms paying dividends if they are not paying the living wage.

National living wage

This is the beefed-up minimum wage announced by George Osborne in last summer’s budget. It starts from April at £7.20 an hour, and employers have to pay it. But it only applies to over-25s.

CBI criticises Corbyn's proposed living wage rule for firms

The conference has not started yet, but the CBI has already criticised Jeremy Corbyn’s proposal to prevent firms paying the dividends to shareholders if they are not paying the living wage. This is from Mathew Fell, the CBI’s chief of staff.

The idea of politicians stepping into the relationship between a private company and its shareholders would be a significant intervention, and not one that we would support.

We have not had a lot of new policy from Labour since Jeremy Corbyn won the leadership, but today he’s putting some substantial proposals on equality and low pay on the table. He is the keynote speaker at the Fabian Society conference in London and, as Rowena Mason reports in her preview story, he is going to float two proposals that would put significant constraints on big business. Here’s an extract from Rowena’s story.

Jeremy Corbyn will show he is ready for battle with big business as he proposes barring companies from distributing dividends unless they pay the living wage, and putting in place salary curbs to stop bosses being paid many times more than workers.

The Labour leader will suggest the ideas in a speech at the Fabian Society conference in London on Saturday, arguing that “too much of the proceeds of growth have accumulated to those at the top”.

Addressing Labour members, he will say inequality is bad for growth and a fairer society does better in terms of economic stability and wealth creation.

“One proposal is pay ratios between top and bottom, so that the rewards don’t just accrue to those at the top,” he will say. “Of the G7 nations only the US has greater income inequality than the UK, pay inequality on this scale is neither necessary nor inevitable.

“Another proposal would be to bar or restrict companies from distributing dividends until they pay all their workers the living wage. Only profitable employers will be paying dividends, if they depend on cheap labour for those profits then I think there is a question over whether that is a business model to which we should be turning a blind eye.”

And here is the full story.

The speech should be the highlight of the conference, but there are plenty of other good speakers here. These are the events at the conference that I will mostly be focusing on. A full list of speakers is on the Fabian Society website.

10.40am: Jeremy Corbyn speaks.

11.15am: Panel discussion on the art of opposition, with Stella Creasy MP, the Guardian columnist Owen Jones, Deborah Mattinson, the former Labour pollster, and Tom Baldwin, Ed Miliband’s communications director in the last parliament.

12.30pm: Panel discussion on how Britain is changing, and how the left should respond, with Lisa Nandy, the shadow energy secretary, Dan Jarvis and Keir Starmer.

1.40pm: Sadiq Khan, Labour’s candidate for mayor of London, in conversation with the Observer’s Heather Stewart.

At a separate event Michael Dugher, who was sacked by Corbyn as shadow culture secretary last week, will also be giving his first speech since he lost his post. I will be covering that too.

If you want to follow me or contract me on Twitter, I’m on @AndrewSparrow.

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