Evening summary
- Labour delegates have voted on a wide-ranging set of changes to party rules affecting in particular how leaders are chosen and how MPs can be removed. (See 3.11pm.) There were eight card votes, and the results will be announced tomorrow. During the debate some activists criticised the plans, saying they did not give members enough power to determine who represents them. Steve Arloff, from Bradford West Labour Party, said all Labour MPs should welcome being considered for selection by members who campaign for them “rather than just assume they have some God-given right to be selected unopposed, purely because they’re sitting MPs, expecting it to be a job for life”. He went on:
Many sitting MPs who have lost the respect and confidence of local parties cling on to their positions in parliament with scant regard for the people who work their socks off to put them there. Hundreds of thousands of us members demand that things are done differently.
Sedgefield Labour Party’s Laura Daly told delegates: “(It) doesn’t go far enough and in fact only helps to remove democracy and silence the voice of the people.” And Brentwood and Ongar Labour member John Pickard urged the trade union delegations to “look at the mood and feeling” within the constituency parties on the matter, describing the NEC proposal as a “dog’s dinner”.
- Angela Rayner, the shadow education secretary, has said that social media companies should stop letting people post abuse from anonymous accounts. Speaking at a Guardian fringe meeting, she said:
One of the first things they should do is stop anonymous accounts. Most people who send me abuse me do so from anonymous accounts, and wouldn’t dream of doing it in their own name.
- Jeremy Corbyn has been criticised by his political opponents both for being too anti-Brexit and too pro-Brexit. After his morning interview with Andrew Marr, in which he confirmed that Labour might back a second referendum in some circumstances if the conference votes for it, the Conservative chairman Brandon Lewis said that Labour under Corbyn would “take us back to square one on Brexit”. But Ian Blackford, the SNP’s leader at Westminster, came out with the opposite criticism. He said:
[Corbyn] demands a general election in the hope of taking charge of the EU negotiations – but can’t even say what his position on the EU is.
Mr Corbyn took charge of the Labour party marketing himself as someone who would represent the Labour rank and file – but he has never seemed more out of touch with his own party – let alone the rest of the country. No wonder Labour cannot pull ahead of the shambolic Tory party in the polls.
This afternoon the party confirmed that Brexit will be one of the eight topics chosen for a contemporary issue debate.
Priorities ballot results at #lab18 - Economy for the many, Brexit, government contracts, housing, in-work poverty, Windrush Palestine, schools systems.
— Jessica Elgot (@jessicaelgot) September 23, 2018
That’s all from me for tonight.
Thanks for the comments.
Updated
Some good advice from Christians on the Left.
The Ten Commandments of #LoveYourCLP. Love them, live by them, share them. #Lab18 pic.twitter.com/UkuVVN3ObZ
— Christians on the Left (@ChrLeft) September 23, 2018
McCluskey says some Labour MPs are 'almost asking to be deselected'
Len McCluskey, the Unite general secretary, has accused some Labour MPs who criticise Jeremy Corbyn of asking to be deselected. He told a Labour conference fringe event that they have shunned a an opportunity to be part of a socialist transformation of the party. He told the Real Britain event:
I believe there are certain MPs within our party who are almost asking to be deselected.
They really don’t want to be part of this exciting transformation that’s taking place.
All my life I have sought a government that would bring about the irreversible shift in balance of power in favour of working people.
We now have an opportunity.
McCluskey told the fringe meeting he was concerned over splits which have emerged around mandatory reselection and urged members to follow the compromise because it has been put forward by Labour’s leader.
I was slightly shocked to see such a divide between constituency delegates and union delegates ... because there is no difference between Unite’s beliefs and views and that of our constituency labour party members who want a greater say in the democratic running of [the party].
What is before you, and what comrades need to understand, is that Jeremy Corbyn is asking us to accept this alternative.
He said party members should stick together and support the compromise or risk giving ammunition to right leaning media. “The Tory media have come here desperate for divisions in our party,” he said.
He also claimed Unite is considering supporting Labour candidates in Northern Ireland. Labour currently has a formal arrangement with the SDLP.
Asked why Labour does not put up candidates in the province, he replied
[The questioner] would say ... Labour should be able to run constituency MPs there. My union is moving towards your particular views.
This is from the BBC’s Joey D’Urso. TWT is The World Transformed, the alternative conference running alongside Labour’s that is linked to Momentum.
This event is about to kick off at @TWT_NOW conference
— Joey D'Urso (@josephmdurso) September 23, 2018
A Very British Coup - Wargaming a Radical Government
Some people will be "playing the malign forces of the deep state" pic.twitter.com/UGh4L0V1ni
Here is a Twitter thread from Steve Howell, who was Jeremy Corbyn’s deputy communications director until after the general election, making the case against a second referendum on Brexit. It may be a good guide to what some in Corbyn’s circle actually think about the prospect.
1/ Yesterday's front pages are just a tiny taste of what will happen in a #PeoplesVote. It's a gift to Farage & co, allowing them to pose as democrats standing up for Britain against unelected Brussels bureaucrats and elitist Remainers who only respect votes that go their way. pic.twitter.com/WmN7aJdsoH
— Steve Howell (@FromSteveHowell) September 23, 2018
At the Jewish Labour Movement fringe meeting at lunchtime several Labour MPs strongly criticised pro-Corbyn union leaders who have played down the significance of antisemitism in the party.
In a reference to Len McCluskey, the Unite general secretary who accused Jewish leaders of adopting a stance of “truculent hostility” towards the party, and Mark Serwotka, the PCS general secretary who suggested the row was manufactured by Israel, Dame Louise Ellman MP said:
For major trade union leaders to not only smear the Jewish community and Jewish people for speaking out against anti-Semitism but then trying to blame them for it, I think we are entering into very dangerous waters.
The Labour MP Wes Streeting said comments such as those made by the union leaders “actively create the conditions in which anti-Semitism can be allowed to fester”. Luciana Berger MP said Serwotka’s comments were “the worst kind of anti-Jewish conspiracy theory”.
As the Press Association reports, many of the MPs speaking at the rally were prominent critics of MCorbyn, but former minister Ian Austin said it was “offensive nonsense” to suggest the row had been “weaponised” to undermine the party leader. He said:
The truth about Jeremy is that he is much angrier with the people complaining about anti-Semitism than he is with the people responsible for it.
Jon Lansman, the founder of the pro-Corbyn group Momentum and one of Corbyn’s key supporters, was also at the rally. He appealed for unity, saying:
As socialists it is difficult for all of us to have to accept that we have a problem with any form of hatred in the party. I would welcome now a period of calm and reflection, I hope that Jewish communal organisations will now re-engage with the party.
Viner ends with a quickfire round.
Q: Lennon or McCartney?
Lennon
Q: Cilla or Ken Dodd?
Cilla
Q: Morrissey or Marr?
Morrissey, says Rayner. But she adds: “Not lately.”
Q: Arndale or Afflecks Place?
Afflecks Palace
Q: Jose Mourinho or Alex Ferguson
Alex, Rayner says.
Q: Neil Kinnock or Stephen Kinnock?
There is a long pause. Then Rayner replies diplomatically:
I don’t like to choose in the great Labour family ... I love them all.
Q: Jacob Rees-Mogg or Boris Johnson?
Another long pause, followed by a noise that sounds like: “Eerrgh.” Eventually she says Rees-Mogg “because he’s slightly less misogynist than Boris.”
But Jo Johnson, Boris’s brother, is “quite nice for a Tory”, she says.
And that’s it.
Updated
Q: A report last week said London was insular and arrogant. Do you see it like that?
Rayner says she would not say that. She finds it a really busy place.
She spends as little time there as possible. When she does not need to be there, she likes going home and getting absorbed in all things Manc.
Rayner says Corbyn has got integrity. But she does not agree with him on everything. She has not agreed with every leader on everthing.
Q: Can you give examples of where you disagree?
Rayner declines. She wants to keep her job, she jokes.
But she comes back to the point about Corbyn having integrity. He does not triangulate, she says.
Q: Has Labour become too London?
Rayner says the whole of Britain has become too London.
She says in her area “none of the above” always wins the election. She needs to give people a reason to vote, she says.
Q: Have you a particular appeal in northern towns?
Rayner says she would do very well if she had a pound for every time someone said they would vote for politicians if they sounded like her.
Rayner says people were inspired by the Labour manifesto. Labour needs to rebuild trust.
Angela Rayner in conversation with Katharine Viner Editor-in-Chief of The Guardian ‘People on benefits want hand ups not hand outs’ pic.twitter.com/khhCe32oWi
— Dr Catherine Preston (@PrestonDr) September 23, 2018
Q: The Guardian’s Anywhere But Westminster videos show working people unhappy with their lives, but not necessarily blaming the government. Why?
Rayner says she thinks the political class is losing the working class. That might be because of the language politicians use. And it may be because people have seen that their lives have not changed. People feel the political class is managing decline.
She says she worries that more and more people are disengaged with politics.
Rayner says under Labour ever child did matter.
She is not factional, she says, because to her what matters most is Labour getting into power. Every Labour government has pushed the country towards being one that works for everyone, she says. That is true of Blair and Attlee, she says.
Labour governments don’t get everything right. But they are good for life chances.
Q: Have you suffered sexual abuse?
Yes, says Rayner. Loads. She says of course she has faced this, like other women. She says she can tell within five minutes whether a man just wants to sleep with her, she says. You just know, she says.
Q: What do you feel about speaking in the chamber of the Commons.
Rayner says she loves it. It is like being a boxer and preparing for a fight. She says she likes it when its fiery. She gets worried when the Tories are not shouting at her.
Rayner calls for crackdown on use of anonymous accounts on social media to spread abuse
Q: Do you think the government should do something about social media companies?
Yes, says Rayner. She says the government should stop people using anonymous accounts to criticise people.
She says the worst abuse she gets comes from anonymous accounts.
- Social media companies should stop people using anonymous accounts to spread abuse, says Rayner.
Q: Research shows that won’t stop it.
It might not stop it. But it would help, she says.
She says, at a recent event, social media companies said politicians should accept a higher threshold for abuse. That is unacceptable, she says.
Q: What do you feel about reports that 1 in 4 young girls self harm?
Rayner says social media has created pressures for children. People are judged at an earlier age than before.
If you are told when you are young you are not right, you will grow up with psychological harm.
Rayner is speaking now about having been a teenage mum. She says the parenting help she got on a Sure Start course helped to save her.
Updated
Q: How has the country become so rigid in thinking about education?
Rayner says people at the top all come from the same social pool. That applies everywhere, probably the Guardian too, she says. You should check the figures.
We have, says Viner. She says the Guardian recently surveyed staff, and there are more staff from a working class background than some people might expect. And 17% of staff were privately educated, less than some people might have thought.
Updated
Rayner says her middle son is registered blind. She does not feel that teachers have to apologise because he has not achieved as much as other children. He is achieving more than people expected. He is happy.
She thinks people should be able to make mistakes in life, and try something different.
Updated
Q: Do you feel unusual in parliament with your background?
Yes and no, says Rayner. She says there are working class MPs, but they have their class beaten out of them.
Whenever she is on the Today programme, she gets letters from people saying, if only she spoke properly, she would do better. But, she jokes, her speech is a lot more formal than a lot of people from Manchester.
Q: You voted remain, but your constituency voted leave. What could be done to change their minds?
Rayner says she objects to the idea that you can just tell people they were wrong.
You need to listen to what people want. Infrastructure, investment and education can all address people’s concerns, she says.
She says, as a working class girl, she knows that it is not easy being on benefits. Working class people don’t want a hand out. They want a hand up. They don’t want to have to rely on food banks.
She says a lot of politicians in the bubble don’t understand working people’s concerns.
Q: You don’t think the EU were being arrogant, offering cake with no cherries?
Rayner says she thought there was a dog whistle in May’s speech on Friday. She spoke about immigration in negative tone. But much of immigration is skilled immigration.
May has not stood up against the hard right in her party, she says.
Rayner criticises May for going into Brexit talks threatening to be difficult
Q: What will be in your speech tomorrow?
Rayner says she will set out the principles behind this. It will be based on collaboration not competition.
Q: So you will turn your back on Michael Gove’s reforms?
Absolutely.
(That gets a warm round of applause.)
Rayner jokes that, if she is ever losing an audience, all she has to do is have a go at Gove, and she wins them round.
Q: She called the educational establishment “the blob”. What do you call them?
Rayner says she calls them heroes. She thinks Gove made a massive mistake when he used that language,
She says she thinks Theresa May made the same mistake in her approach to the EU over Brexit.
Gove thought he knew best. And May did too with the EU. She said she would be a difficult woman. As a former trade union rep, she knows that if she started by saying she would be difficult, she would not get far.
- Rayner criticises May for going into Brexit talks threatening to be difficult.
And putting David Davis in charge did not help either.
She says the government should have followed Keir Starmer’s approach. He looked at principles first.
Updated
Katharine Viner is now introducing Angela Rayner.
Q: Are you one of those people who loves Labour conference or hates it?
Rayner says she has been coming since she was a Unison delegate. She remembers coming and getting photographed with her son with Gordon Brown.
Q: What is the national education service?
It is a cradle-to-grave service, based on the NHS, ensuring anyone can learn free at the point of use. It is more than secondary or tertiary education. Health, education and housing are the three pillars of social mobility, she says.
If in 100 years’ time or 75 years’ time people are still talking about a national education service, she and Jeremy Corbyn will have done a good job.
Updated
Angela Rayner interviewed by Katharine Viner
I’m at a biggish lecture hall in the conference centre where a Guardian fringe event is about to start. Katharine Viner, the Guardian’s editor, will be interviewing Angela Rayner, the shadow education secretary.
Here’s a long interview with Rayner by my colleague Stephen Moss that we ran last year.
Updated
These are from my colleague Jessica Elgot.
Lots of speakers urging delegates to vote against the trigger ballot reform, and try to get open selections instead. But Momentum aren't actually recommending this, because there would be a chance of no reform at all if that one fell.
— Jessica Elgot (@jessicaelgot) September 23, 2018
This is the advice Momentum is sending to delegates on MP selections. Vote on the compromise, because there may not be another chance. pic.twitter.com/N1IkkbJM6c
— Jessica Elgot (@jessicaelgot) September 23, 2018
The Labour party rule changes being debated this afternoon include making it easier for local members to force a full selection process for their MPs.
Currently 50% of members and local affiliates, such as trade union branches, must express dissatisfaction to force a contest against a sitting MPs. Under the new rules, that will be reduced to one third, though it does not go as far as Momentum’s bid for full open selections in every seat, automatically.
Other reforms include adding a second, female deputy leader of the Labour Party, to sit alongside Tom Watson.
The most controversial measures are reforms to the election of the next Labour leader. Currently any MP must get the backing of 10% of their fellow MPs before they can stand for leader, but many members wanted that reduced to 5% of MPs, and for MPs to also get on the ballot if they have significant support from local parties.
Instead, after unions backed a compromise, the threshold will stay at 10% of MPs, but a contender must also win the backing of 5% of local parties, or from 5% of trade union affiliate members, in effect meaning they must have the backing of two big unions.
Momentum is furious this proposal has been watered down.
Other reforms include creating a disability representative for the NEC and proposals to increase black and ethnic minority representation.
Early afternoon summary
- Len McCluskey, the Unite general secretary and the most powerful union leader in the party, has intervened in an attempt to stop Labour edging towards backing a second referendum on EU membership. Delegates will debate the topic on Tuesday, and the wording of the composite motion that will be put to a vote will be decided tonight. In an pre-conference interview Jeremy Corbyn said he would be bound by any conference decision. (See 9.09am.) This prompted the People’s Vote campaign to issued a statement from the Labour MP David Lammy saying:
There are really positive signs coming from the Labour leadership this weekend that they are listening to our party’s members, affiliates and voters. Demands for a People’s Vote have been getting louder and louder by the day.
But McCluskey said, if there were to be a second referendum, it should not include the option of remain. Emily Thornberry, the shadow foreign secretary, also sounded sceptical about holding a second remain/leave vote (see 2.24pm), and Rebecca Long-Bailey, the shadow business secretary, said she had “reservations” about the idea. (See 10.20am.)
- Jennie Formby, Labour’s general secretary, has said that the party has made good progress addressing the issue of antisemitism and that outstanding disciplinary complaints have been dealt with. In her speech to the conference she said:
Antisemitism too has been in the headlines for many months. There is no point in denying it’s made for hard reading.
But we’ve made significant progress on dealing with it:
We’ve fully implemented the recommendations of the Chakrabarti report
We’ve appointed an in-house counsel
We’ve adopted a code of conduct that we are continuing to consult on
We’ve set up special panels of the disputes committee that have cleared all outstanding cases that have been put before the NEC
We’ve made recommendations on rule changes – that I hope you will support - to more than double the NCC and to set clear time limits for cases to be heard
And we’re now embarking on consultation on an extensive education and training programme to ensure our members truly understand the issues
There is no place for antisemitism anywhere in our movement or in society and we will always take action when it is identified. Our party is nothing if we don’t stand united against oppression and in solidarity with our Jewish brothers and sisters.
Corbyn faced repeated questions about this issue when he was interviewed by the BBC’s Andrew Marr. (See 1.03pm.) Corbyn told Marr that he was absolutely not antisemitic and that he would “die fighting racism in any form”.
- Delegates have begun debating changes to the party’s rulebook which will give grassroots activists and trade unions more say in who can stand in future leadership elections. Under the reselection proposals, the threshold to force sitting MPs to fight open selection battles would be cut from 50% to 33% of local branches or affiliated unions. This would make it easier for activists to challenge sitting MPs, but it does not go as far as mandatory reselection, the policy favoured by some Corbynites. Tom Watson, Labour’s deputy leader, told Sky this morning that mandatory reselection would be “very destabilising for the party”. He said:
We are potentially close to a general election, maybe any day. What we don’t want is MPs having to defend their positions in their local areas when they could be campaigning in parliament for social policy that affects the many not the few.
I am concerned that some of our younger, newer MPs have faced votes of no confidence. Parties have the right to express their disappointment in their MPs if they want to.
But if it goes too far, people feel alienated or their morale goes or they are driven out, it stops us aiming for the main prize, which is a Labour government for the many, not the few.
Emily Thornberry, the shadow foreign secretary, was also asked about the wording of a possible second referendum on Brexit when she appeared on Pienaar’s Politics this morning. Unlike Len McCluskey, she did not explicitly say that the option of staying in the EU should be excluded. (See 12pm.) But when asked if remain should be an option in such a referendum, she refused to say yes. Instead she replied:
This is so many hypotheticals, we are heading for a constitutional crisis. You have got my clear opinion which is that this will be a government which cannot govern and we need another one.
People’s Vote say they think at least 5,000 people have turned up for their march in favour of a second referendum outside the Labour conference. “This is a fantastic turnout in wet and windy weather,” a spokesperson said, implying perhaps they would have liked a few more.
On the Andrew Marr Show this morning the Labour MP Lisa Nandy said the party should consider having a man and a woman sharing the leadership as a job share. Speaking after Labour’s national executive committee decided yesterday to have a new female deputy leader, serving alongside the current deputy Tom Watson, Nandy said:
I don’t really think this is enough. I really welcome this announcement from the NEC today, I think it’s absolutely essential that we have got a woman somewhere near the top of the party.
But I don’t think that should stop at deputy leader. I think we should have this sort of system for leader as well. I would like to see these positions open to job-sharing, a bit like the Green party.
Asked on Sky if she would run for the new deputy post, Rebecca Long-Bailey, the shadow business secretary, said that she had “not even thought about” it and that she expected her current job would keep her “busy for a long time.”
Thousands march in Liverpool for People's Vote campaign
Thousands of people have marched through Liverpool to urge Labour to back a so-called people’s vote on the Brexit deal. As the Press Association reports, a crowd waving EU and other flags chanted “bollocks to Brexit” and “it’s not a done deal” as they walked from St George’s Hall to a rally at Pier Head, close to where the conference is taking place.
Liverpool Wavertree MP Luciana Berger was among those who joined the march in support of Labour members who want the conference to debate supporting a second vote. As the Press Association reports, some sections of the crowd also chanted directly at Jeremy Corbyn, saying: “Hey Jeremy, take a note, for the many, People’s Vote.”
— Barney Pell Scholes (@B_PellScholes) September 23, 2018
Labour’s next UK manifesto will include a commitment to oppose a second independence referendum for Scotland, finally clarifying the party’s stance on the issue.
After Jeremy Corbyn told the BBC on Thursday that he would “decide at the time” whether to allow a second vote, Scottish Labour leader Richard Leonard will tell delegates:
And let me say at the very outset: we don’t need another independence referendum to change Scotland, as far as I am concerned– we’ve just had one.
The majority of people do not want one, and as we meet here this week with the prospect of a general election, I can make clear today that the next Labour manifesto will oppose another independence referendum.
The announcement was inevitably immediately met with derision by SNP supporters online, while SNP leader and first minister Nicola Sturgeon described the announcement as “good news for the SNP”.
Jeremy Corbyn's Marr interview - Summary
Here are the main points from Jeremy Corbyn’s interview with Andrew Marr. There should be a transcript up on the Marr website later.
- Corbyn claimed that some Tories were so angry with the government that they could back a general election. See 11.19am. He was saying this to address claims that, in saying that he wants a general election rather than a second Brexit referendum, he is being unrealistic because Labour does not have the votes to trigger a general election.
- He confirmed that he would be “bound” by any vote at the conference on a second Brexit referendum. But he stressed that he did not know yet the wording of the composite motion that would be put to a vote. Asked if he would respect that conference supports, he said:
There will be a clear vote in the conference. I don’t know what’s going to come out of all the compositing meetings that are going on ...
Let’s see what comes out of conference. Obviously I’m bound by the democracy of our party.
- He refused to say how he would vote in a second referendum. Asked this question, he replied:
That’s conjecture, as to what the question would be ... In the referendum I wanted to remain and reform the EU. Forty percent of Labour voters voted to leave, 60% voted to remain. But, do you know what? None of them voted to lose their jobs, none of them voted to have lower food standards, they all wanted a better economic performance [for] this country.
- He played down suggestions he might stand down as Labour leader. Asked if he agreed with John McDonnell that the next leader should be a woman, he replied:
We haven’t had a woman leader, so maybe a woman leader would be a good idea, but I’m not planning to create a vacancy at any time soon.
-
He refused an invitation to offer an apology to the Jewish people over antisemitism - but insisted he would “die fighting racism in any form”. When asked if he would show remorse to Jewish people, he replied:
I am an anti-racist and will die an anti-racist. Antisemitism is a scourge in any society, I have opposed it all my life and will continue to oppose it all my life.
Under my leadership in this party we have been more specific about the definition, we have set out much better processes for dealing with incidents within the party and we are improving them even further to make sure that any complaints are dealt with quickly.
The party must be and is a safe and welcoming place for all communities.
Asked specifically if he was an antisemite, he replied:
No. Absolutely not. I’ve spent my whole life opposing racism in any form and I will die fighting racism in any form.
- He defended his 2013 comment about some Zionist protesters not understanding English irony. Asked about the incident, which led to him being accused of antisemitism, he said:
I was at a meeting in the House of Commons. The two people I referred to had been incredibly disruptive; indeed the police wanted to throw them out of the meeting. I didn’t. I said they should remain in the meeting. They had been disruptive at a number of meetings.
At the later meeting, when Manuel [Hassassian, the Palestinian ambassador to the UK] spoke, they were quiet. But they came up and were really, really strong on him afterwards. And he was quite upset by it. I know Manuel Hassassian quite well. And I was speaking in his defence.
Asked why he talked about the Zionists not understanding “English” irony, Corbyn said:
Because of the way Manuel, whose first language is not English, has an incredible command of English and made a number of ironic remarks towards them during the interchanges I heard with them.
When it was put to him that his words sounded antisemitic, he replied:
They were very, very abusive to Manuel. Very abusive. And I was upset on his behalf ... I felt I should say something in his support.
It was not intended to be antisemitic in any way and I have no intention and have absolutely opposition in every way to antisemitism because I can see where it leads to. I can see where it leads to now - in Poland, Hungary, in central Europe - I can see where it led to in the past. We have to oppose racism in any form and I do.
- He said that when he attended the controversial wreath-laying ceremony in Tunisia in 2014, he said he did not know who was in the cemetery beyond those killed in the 1985 Israeli airstrike. “I’m not a supporter of Black September, of course,” he said.
- He said he did not see the state of Israel as a racist endeavour. Asked if he did, he replied:
No. I think the establishment of the state of Israel was an agreement with the United Nations.
But Israel should end the seige of Gaza and its policy of putting settlements in the occupied territories, he said. Asked why, when Labour was adopting the International Holocaust Memorial Alliance examples of antisemitism, he proposed an exemption allowing the description of Israel as racist (Labour’s national executive committee blocked Corbyn’s proposal), Corbyn replied:
I think it’s right that people should be able to discuss the establishment of the state of Israel but recognise the existence of the state of Israel and not prevent that kind of debate
- He said he found Lord Sacks’s decision to compare him to Enoch Powell offenisive. Sacks, the former chief rabbi, came out with the comparison after Corbyn’s 2013 comment about some Zionist protesters not understanding English irony emerged. Asked to respond, Corbyn said:
I do find that quite hurtful, quite offensive ... I say to Rabbi Sacks, with all due respect, that is beyond excessive.
Staying in EU should not be option in any second referendum, says McCluskey
Len McCluskey, the Unite general secretary, has single-handed done his best to slam the brakes on Labour’s (admittedly, quite tentative) shift closer to backing a second referendum on Brexit. He has told BBC 5 Live’s Pienaar’s Politics that, if there has to be a referendum, voters should just get a choice between leaving the EU without a deal, and leaving with a deal.
He said:
The referendum shouldn’t be on do ‘we want to go back into the European Union’.
So staying in the EU shouldn’t even be an option, he was asked. McCluskey replied:
No, because the people have already decided on that. We very rarely have referendums in this country. The people have decided, against my wishes and my union’s wishes, but they’ve decided ...
Here’s one of the problems Labour have; there are significant numbers of traditional Labour supporters who are saying we’re going to vote Conservative because we don’t trust Labour to take us out of the European Union despite the fact that Jeremy has said repeatedly, ‘Of course we recognise the result of course we respect the result, we’re coming out of the European Union.’ For us to now enter some kind of campaign that opens up that issue again I think would be wrong.
What McCluskey says is significant because Unite is generally seen as the most powerful union in the Labour party, and he is the union leader closest to Corbyn.
In July the Unite union agreed a motion at its conference saying it was “open to the possibility of a popular vote being held on any [Brexit] deal”. At the time it was widely assumed that this mean an in/out referendum, but McCluskey now seems to be interpreting this as referring to a deal/no deal referendum, which would be something very different.
John Neal, editor of the Andrew Marr Show, has posted this on Twitter explaining why Marr devoted quite so much of his interview to the antisemitism issue.
For those asking why we spent so much time talking to Jeremy Corbyn about anti semitism, it was unusual, but it’s the first time anyone has had the chance to put to him some of the stories that have dominated over the last few months. We also spent time on Brexit and policy #marr
— John Neal (@JohntNeal) September 23, 2018
The Sun’s Steve Hawkes says Corbyn is much better at handling hostile questions of this kind than he used to be.
Jeremy Corbyn 2018 is night and day from Jeremy Corbyn 2015.
— steve hawkes (@steve_hawkes) September 23, 2018
Imagine how badly he'd have handled the peppering from Marr three years back
Corbyn claims some Tory MPs so angry with government they might back general election
In his interview Jeremy Corbyn claimed that some Tory MPs might back an early general election. Asked whether we could be facing an early election soon, he replied:
We could be, because this government doesn’t seem very strong ... We could well be looking towards a general election, and - do you know what? - we’re ready for it.
When it was put to him that Conservative MPs would not vote for a second referendum, he replied:
I don’t think there’s many Tory MPs want a Labour government, but there’s many Tory MPs that are very, very angry at the way their government is performing and might feel it is the right time for the country to make a decision on the future. So we will be putting our case to parliament and we will see what happens after that. We are absolutely ready for it.
Q: Are you attracted by plans to move people towards a four-day week?
Corbyn says we should consider how technology can change work.
Q: Are you enjoying being Labour leader.
Every minute of it, he says.
Q: Will you carry on until 2022. [Marr mentions people singing the “dreadful” Jeremy Corbyn song].
Corbyn says he does not think the song is dreadful.
He wants to lead Labour into a general election, he says.
Q: Do you support Dawn Butler in praising the Militant-led council in Liverpool in the 1980s?
Corbyn says Butler was expressing support for the people of Liverpool.
Q: John McDonnell says the next Labour leader should be a woman. Do you agree?
Corbyn says he is not planning to create a vacancy any time soon.
And that’s it.
I will post a summary soon.
Q: Do you think having a second home is immoral?
Corbyn sidesteps the question, but explains Labour’s new policy for a levy on second homes.
Villages made up largely of second homes become dead villages, he says.
Q: Do you regard Israel as a racist endeavour?
No, says Corbyn. But he says he thinks Israel should end the siege of Gaza.
Q: But you put a proposal to the NEC saying describing Israel as a racist endeavour should be allowed.
Corbyn says he wanted to ensure that debate was allowed.
Q: Jonathan Sacks compared what you said to Enoch Powell.
Corbyn says he found that offensive. He grew up in the West Midlands and remembers the effect of Powell’s speech.
Q: A lot of Jewish people would like you to look at the camera and apologise.
Corbyn says he is anti-racist and will always be anti-racist. He says antisemitism is scourge. He is opposed to it, he says.
Q: What were you doing laying a wreath at cemetery where people involved in the Black September terrorist attack were buried?
Corbyn says he did not know that at the time. He does not support those involved in Black September.
Marr plays the clip of Corbyn complaining about some pro-Israeli protesters not understanding English irony.
Corbyn says the two protesters were being disruptive. He was speaking in defence of the Palestinian ambassador.
Q: What did you mean by talking about English irony?
Corbyn says the protester were being very, very offensive.
Q: Do you accept that what you said was antisemitic?
Corbyn says it was not intended like that.
Q: Luciana Berger said your comments did not make her feel welcome as a Jewish MP.
Corbyn says all people are welcome in the party.
Q: Are you an antisemite?
No, says Corbyn. He says he has fought against racism all his life.
Q: How did you feel when a Jewish MP, Margaret Hodge, called you an antisemite?
Corbyn says he completely rejects this. The matter with Hodge is closed.
Q: What did you think when you saw the picture of an antisemitic mural.
Corbyn says he was concerned about the idea of a mural being taken down. He was too hasty in his judgment, he says.
Q: The Holocaust Memorial Trust says it should have been impossible not to notice antisemitic elements in this picture.
Corbyn says there were other elements in the picture. But the mural was taken down.
Updated
Q: Would you vote down a Brexit deal and risk a no deal Brexit?
Corbyn says Labour would vote it down to send the government back to Brussels to renegotiate.
Corbyn says his preference is for a general election, not a second referendum. But he will see what the conference decides.
Q: Will you be bound by it?
Yes, says Corbyn.
Q: Will there be votes on a second referendum.
Corbyn says there will be clear votes. But he does not know what will come out of the compositing process.
Q: How would you vote in a referendum?
Corbyn says he does not know what the choices would be.
He voted to remain in the EU. But he wanted reform. He says no one voted to lose their job.
Q: Do you have a new idea as to how to resolve the Irish border problem?
Corbyn says the EU do not want a hard border in Northern Ireland. They are right. We can get an agreement that avoids one, he says.
Q: The EU hates cherry picking. But you are proposing that too. You want all the benefits of the single market, but you don’t want to be bound by some of its rules, like state aid ones.
Corbyn says his policy is different from the government’s. Liam Fox wants to undermine worker’s right and environmental laws. Labour wants to strengthen them, he says.
Q: On the Irish border and cherry picking, you are in the same position as the government.
Corbyn says the government would undermine standards. Labour would maintain them.
Jeremy Corbyn's interview with Andrew Marr
Jeremy Corbyn is being interviewed on the Andrew Marr Show.
Asked what should happen after Salzburg, Corbyn says Theresa May should report to parliament. Her plan should be measured against Labour’s six tests.
Q: Are we close to a general election?
We could be, says Corbyn.
He accepts that Tory MPs don’t want a general election. But he says many of them are unhappy about the way the government is proceeding. They might see the case for an election, he suggests.
Raab tells Marr that talks of an early general election is “for the birds” and that “it’s not going to happen”.
That is a reference to the Sunday Times splash.
Tomorrow's front page: May’s team plot snap election to save Brexit AND The Good University Guide 2019 #TomorrowsPapersToday pic.twitter.com/TY1TsCVJrk
— The Sunday Times (@thesundaytimes) September 22, 2018
Raab says government will published next set of no deal Brexit planning papers tomorrow
Dominic Raab, the Brexit secretary, is being interviewed on the Andrew Marr Show now.
He has just said the government will publish its next tranche of no deal planning papers on Monday.
- Raab says government will published next set of no deal Brexit planning papers tomorrow.
Updated
Long-Bailey says second Brexit referendum question could be skewed by government
Earlier Rebecca Long-Bailey, the shadow business secretary, told Sophy Ridge on Sunday that she has “reservations” about the idea of holding a second referendum on Brexit. She also deployed sounded what sounded like a new argument against a second referendum, claiming that the question could in some way be rigged by the government.
Asked if she wanted a second referendum, she replied:
I have reservations. I would prefer to push the government into a general election ...
In terms of a people’s vote, if the government was in power, they would hold the pen on that people’s vote, they would determine the questions that would be asked in such a people’s vote. They might be able to skew it in particular directions to secure the result that they wanted. And I would question the fairness of that.
She also said holding a second referendum would be “concerning” for people who did not strong views on Brexit either way and who just wanted the UK to get the best available deal.
Watson says Labour should put second referendum pledge in manifesto if party conference calls for this
This is what Tom Watson, Labour’s deputy leader, said how Labour should put a second referendum in its manifesto if the conference calls for that. When asked about this, he told Sophy Ridge on Sunday:
We decide our manifesto in the first few days of general election, and there are a lot of things you need to factor in, the prevailing economic climate, the whole of the packages in there.
It seems to me inconceivable that, if the Labour party democratically decides, the Labour party conference decides, it wants a manifesto pledge on a people’s vote, that we would defy that decision. But I’m already in the boundaries of speaking hypotheticals with you.
Asked he would vote in such a referendum, Watson said that he voted remain in 2016 and he added:
I think it’s highly likely I would probably vote remain in the next one.
Updated
Labour and trade union delegates will vote today on eight topics for debate at conference in the “priorities ballot”. Trade unions have decided one of their four topics will be Brexit, meaning the prospect of a second referendum will be debated on the conference floor.
The exact motion will be thrashed out tonight and it may end in a fudge - probably keeping a new poll on the table but stressing preference for an election.
Momentum is advising delegates to prioritise four topics, Windrush, schools, housing and Palestine. Sources said it was unnecessary to advise delegates to vote for Brexit, seeing as it was guaranteed debate anyway because the unions would vote for it.
Campaigners had feared that Momentum could use its manpower to block a debate on Brexit.
Last year, Momentum steered its delegates to vote on other topics to swerve a possible vote on single-market membership which could have exposed tensions between the Labour leadership and members. However, the group’s national co-ordinator Laura Parker told the Guardian earlier this week that would not be repeated.
In the end, the unions’ decision to prioritise Brexit meant any angst was unwarranted.
Another Europe is Possible and other grassroots anti-Brexit groups will still advise delegates to vote for Brexit anyway, to pile pressure on the party ahead of the debate.
Watson says Jennie Formby, the Labour general secretary, has told him that the backlog of complaints against members accused of antisemitism has now been processed.
Q: Do you agree with Chuka Umunna about Labour being an institutionally racist party?
No, says Watson. He says he thinks Labour is institutionally anti-racist.
Q: Isn’t it embarrassing that you have not got a slot speaking from the conference platform?
No, says Watson. He says he is speaking on the conference fringe. And he says he gave up his slot so that the leader of Labour MEPs could speak.
And that’s it from Watson.
Watson says he is favour of having a second deputy leader, with the slot reserved for a woman. That would be good for the party and good for women’s representation.
Q: Do you want the next leader to be a woman?
Absolutely, he says. He says he does not want Jeremy Corbyn to stand down soon. But when the time comes he wants to see a woman take over as next leader. The time for that has come, he says.
Watson says Labour should put second referendum pledge in manifesto if party conference calls for this
Tom Watson is being interviewed on Sophy Ridge on Sunday.
Repeating what he told the Observer, he says he and Jeremy Corbyn are committed to giving the party back to its members, and backing what they want.
Q: Is this the beginning of the great betrayal? You are going back on the referendum?
Watson says he can understand why the Conservatives say that.
But he says it is not just up to him and Corbyn to decide what the party does.
Q: Should Labour offer a second referendum in its manifesto?
Watson says the party decides its manifesto at the time.
He says, if the conference were to say a second referendum should be in the manifesto, it would be “inconceivable” that the party would not honour that, he says.
But he says he is pushing at the limits of hypotheticals.
It is not for him to decide the manifesto, he says.
- Watson says Labour should put second referendum pledge in manifesto if party conference calls for this.
Labour would legislate to force firms to appoint employee directors, says Corbyn
There are two policy announcements out from Labour this morning.
As the Observer previewed overnight, the party is saying it would impose a new levy on second properties used as holiday homes. It would use the revenue, up to £560m a year, to tackle homelessness.
The party has also said this morning that it would legislate to force large companies to reserve at least a third of the seats on their boards for employees. In a statement about this Jeremy Corbyn said:
In workplaces across the country, working hours have got longer, productivity has nosedived, pay has fallen and insecurity has risen.
Businesses have been allowed to get away with such exploitative practices because the balance of power has shifted against workers. That has allowed a reckless corporate culture to fester which is damaging Britain’s economy.
Labour will turn the tide and give workers more control and a real say at work. By ensuring businesses reserve a third of board seats for workers, we’ll help transform our broken economic model, as part of our plans to rebuild Britain for the many not the few.
The new law would apply to firms with a workforce of 250 or more. Employee directors would be elected by the entire workforce, including overseas staff, and they would be paid the same as other directors.
When Theresa May became PM she said she wanted more employees represented on company boards, although she subsequently watered down her plans in the face of opposition from business.
The Conservatives claim Labour’s highly qualified support for a second Brexit referendum is a liability for the opposition. Referring to Jeremy Corbyn’s comments (see 9.09am), and what Tom Watson, the deputy Labour leader told the Observer, the Tory chairman Brandon Lewis put out a statement saying:
The last pretence that Labour ever respected the democratic decision of the British people is rapidly disappearing.
If Labour back a second referendum they will have broken their manifesto pledge and betrayed millions of people who voted in good faith to leave the EU.
Labour would take us back to square one. Only the Conservatives will respect the referendum result and take back control of our laws, borders and money.
Corbyn says he will accept any Labour conference decision on second Brexit referendum
Jeremy Corbyn has given just one newspaper interview ahead of the Labour conference that formally opens today in Liverpool. And in it he inched slightly closer towards backing the idea of holding a second referendum on Brexit.
In the past he has said it is not party policy, although the party has not ruled it out as a fallback option in the event of parliament not backing a Brexit deal and Labour failing to trigger a general election (its preferred option).
In his Sunday Mirror interview Corbyn said that, if the party conference this week does vote for a second referendum, he will respect that. He said:
What comes out of conference I will adhere to. But I’m not calling for a second referendum. I hope we will agree that the best way of resolving this is a general election.
But I was elected to empower the members of the party. So if conference makes a decision I will not walk away from it and I will act accordingly.
This is probably the most supportive thing Corbyn has ever said about a second referendum. But it is not as significant as it sounds because we don’t yet know what the motion on Brexit/second referendum motion that gets put to a vote will actually say and it is more than likely that it will be a fudge, backing a second referendum, but only as a second best option in the event of there not being a general election. The TUC voted for something very similar earlier this month.
What would be much more significant would if delegates were to vote for a motion saying that Labour should go into a general election following the breakdown of Brexit talks promising a second referendum. But John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, signalled in a Guardian interview last week that the leadership did not back this.
Today delegates will vote on what topics should be chosen for contemporary debates. More than 100 constituency parties have submitted second referendum motions, meaning Brexit is certain to be chosen, but the text of the motion will not be available until the “compositing meeting” has taken place tonight. This is when some unfortunate delegates get the task of boiling down the 100-plus motions submitted on this subject and mashing them into just one text.
Here is the agenda for the day.
9am: Tom Watson, Labour’s deputy leader, is interviewed on Sophy Ridge on Sunday.
10am: Jeremy Corbyn is interviewed on the Andrew Marr Show.
10.30am: The conference formally opens. Jennie Formby, the general secretary, speaks at 11am and at 110.10am Ian Lavery, the Labour chair, opens a debate on the democracy review rule changes.
12pm: The People Vote campaign holds a rally outside the conference. Speakers include the GMB general secretary Tim Roache and the Labour MP David Lammy.
12.30pm: John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, and Len McCluskey, the Unite general secretary, speak at a “Real Britain” fringe meeting.
2.15pm: The conference debate on the democracy review resumes. At 5.20 there are votes, as well as the announcement of the results of the ballot to decide what topics have been chosen for contemporary debates.
3.30pm: Angela Rayner, the shadow education secretary, is interviewed at a fringe event by the Guardian editor Katharine Viner.
I will be in conversation with @guardian editor-in-chief @KathViner at #Lab18 this Sunday 23rd September 3.30pm. Venue: Auditorium 1B, ACC Liverpool. I look forward to seeing many of you attending conference at this event 🌹 pic.twitter.com/T8bpFgFe0A
— Angela Rayner (@AngelaRayner) September 21, 2018
If you want to follow me or contact me on Twitter, I’m on @AndrewSparrow.
I try to monitor the comments BTL but normally I find it impossible to read them all. If you have a direct question, do include “Andrew” in it somewhere and I’m more likely to find it. I do try to answer direct questions, although sometimes I miss them or don’t have time.
If you want to attract my attention quickly, it is probably better to use Twitter.
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