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The Guardian - AU
The Guardian - AU
National
Melissa Davey

Cardinal George Pell agrees to meet survivors after completing child sexual abuse royal commission evidence – as it happened

George Pell
Australian Cardinal George Pell arrives the Quirinale hotel in Rome, from where he is giving evidence to Australia’s child sex abuse royal commission via videolink. Photograph: Alessandra Tarantino/AP

A recap of the day's evidence

  • Child sexual abuse survivors from Ballarat watching Pell’s evidence in Rome have just held a press conference calling for a meeting with the head of the Roman Catholic Church, Pope Francis. They say they have grown frustrated with Pell’s evidence. While some would still be willing to meet with Pell, their priority is a meeting with Pope Francis.
  • Pell says the senior figures around him deceived him about the extent of abuse within the Catholic church. But counsel assisting, Gail Furness, didn’t accept Pell’s evidence that he was unaware of the abuse inflicted on children by Father Ridsdale and Searson.
  • Furness also did not accept Pell’s evidence that senior figures who worked alongside him who knew of the abuse deliberately didn’t tell him about it.
  • For the second time in two days, Furness told Pell his evidence was “implausible” adding it was “designed to deflect blame”.
  • Furness and the commission chair, Justice Peter McClellan, have finished their questioning. Lawyers representing have begun their questioning of Pell and this will continue tomorrow.
  • The commission will begin an hour early tomorrow, at 7am Australian eastern daylight time, and run until 1pm in order to get through all of the questioning. We will bring you live coverage again then.

Melissa Davey with you here, closing off our live blog for today. Thanks for joining me. I’ll be with you again from 6.30am tomorrow and, in the meantime, you can share your thoughts with me on Twitter or on Facebook.

Updated

Some comments from abuse survivor Philip Nagle to reporters in Rome;

This model is a proven failure in protecting children against sexual abuse by their clergy. We want to know who we can talk to about getting this changed. Pope Francis, please help us.

Updated

Some video from earlier in the day, courtesy of ABC’s The Drum.

Survivors give a press conference in Rome following third day of evidence

Abuse survivor David Ridsdale said “George Pell has consistently pointed the blame elsewhere, accused everybody of being a liar and deceitful”.
“If he is telling the truth that would make him an extraordinarily ignorant man,” Ridsdale said.
While he said he would welcome a meeting with Pell if it was “on a level playing field,” his and other survivors’ primary concern was getting a meeting with Pope Francis, he said.
“That’s the one we’re interested in, because as we continually say, it’s a global process and the structure has to change from the top and George Pell has made it very clear he does not have the ability, the power or the interest to do any of those things so we need to speak to the boss.”

Updated

The commission adjourns for day three

Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, says tomorrow the commission will begin at 7am instead of 8am Australian eastern daylight savings time and go through until 1pm.

Lawyers representing the victims and the church clearly have several hours worth of questioning to ask Pell, now that Furness and Justice Peter McClellan have concluded their own questioning.

Updated

Hanscombe insists it is plausible that her client, Timothy Green, did tell Pell that the abuse by Dowlan needed to be addressed.

Hanscombe: “You already knew that there had been problems of a sexual nature with Dowlan at St Pat’s, you’d heard it from one or two priests. You’d been concerned enough to tell the school chaplain and you’d heard it from somebody else, not Mr Green who you have described as ‘a good and honest lad’. So you had that knowledge already. That meant that what Mr Green blurted out to you was not only inherently implausible but it was likely to be true. That’s right, isn’t it?”

Pell: “No, I don’t think that follows at all. If I’d been clear in my mind at that stage when this incident is alleged to have happened, and I had actually heard the accusation, that would have been significant for me and I would have accepted it and done something about it.”

Updated

Pell says if abuse survivor Timothy Green had come to him to tell him to take action against the paedophile Father Dowlan, he would have acted upon that information.

Pell tells Green’s lawyer, Dr Hanscombe, that Green must be “mistaken”.

Pell: “Could I just say ... see, the possibility is that over this passage of time Mr Green’s simply mistaken. For example, he has me coming to Villa in 1971 and 72, or 72. I was not in Ballarat in 1971 or 72 and my diaries, I have no recollection of going to Villa in those years and my diaries do not show me going to Villa in those years. So as he seems to have been mistaken on that particular point, there is also the possibility he is in error in his recollections.”

Updated

Dr Kristine Hanscombe, a lawyer representing Timothy Green, a survivor of notorious Ballarat paedophile Father Dowlan, is now asking Pell questions. Hanscombe represents seven survivors in total.

Green has previously given evidence to the commission that he told Pell to “do something about” Dowlan.

Pell tells Hanscombe: “I’m not necessarily accepting that his evidence is accurate. It is uncorroborated and I have no recollection of it even after hearing his particular description of the unusual conversation where he only spoke to me, he said, with his back to me.

“I’d just mention that the evidence of Mr Green is uncorroborated by the gentleman who he said was with him who did not recall it and suggest perhaps he didn’t hear it. I have got no recollection of the incident at all.”

Hanscombe: “I know that, you’ve said that several times. When you say the gentleman who was with him, you’re talking about BWD who gave a witness said saying he couldn’t recall it, but he wasn’t saying it didn’t happen – is that who you’re talking about?”

Pell: “I think that would be correct.”

Updated

Pell says "Catholic institutions in Australia now are among the safest in Australia"

Pell says the Melbourne Response, which he established, “is one reason why the Catholic institutions in Australia now are among the safest in Australia”.

The Melbourne Response, implemented in 1996 by the Catholic archdiocese of Melbourne to investigate child sex abuse claims internally, has been repeatedly criticised by abuse victims for being inadequate in previous commission hearings.

From reporter Stephanie Kirchgaessner in Rome, more on the statement from Pell’s office.

Cardinal Pell’s office has released a statement saying he would be “happy” to meet privately with survivors from the Ballarat and Melbourne cases in Rome. The cardinal said he told survivors that they could meet on Thursday morning or afternoon after he completed giving evidence and that the meetings could be held here at the Hotel Quirinale and not the Vatican.

It comes a few hours after abuse survivors said they had no interest in seeing Pell and announced that they requested a formal meeting with Pope Francis. The statement from Pell’s office goes on to say:

Cardinal Pell hopes that these meetings might be helpful and contribute to healing, and he is happy to meet survivors either individually or in smaller groups, as he has done many times in the past. The Cardinal would like to be able to listen to survivors and private meetings offer a good opportunity for this, rather than larger meetings where not everyone may be able to tell their story and emotions can run high.

Survivors are welcome to bring a person to support them at the meetings, but because of the private and pastoral nature of these meetings it would not be appropriate for media or legal representatives to attend.

Cardinal Pell has also advised survivors that he would be happy to assist with requests to meet Pope Francis, but has to rely on the officials responsible for considering these requests. Yesterday Cardinal Pell, in response to a request from survivors, arranged for a member of the Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors to meet with survivors on Thursday morning.

Survivors who have requested meetings will be contacted again later today (Wednesday) to confirm their interest in meeting with Cardinal Pell and to arrange times for the meetings.

Updated

McClellan says to Pell if there was any other organisation with more than 200 branch offices, engaging with tens of thousands of people, you would have a significant middle management structure in that organisation. Pell has repeatedly said that it was up to the upper echelons of the church to handle and respond to child sexual abuse allegations.

Pell: “We are not like that. There is a direct relationship between the bishop and the priests, obviously there were intermediate unofficial groupings like the regions, but I am not in favour of the imposition of a corporate model ... That is not our model. We have a very flat model of organisation.”

Updated

Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, closes her questioning

Furness finishes by asking Pell; “Do you accept any responsibility for a failure to act upon credible information which was indicative of risk and instead requiring proof of allegations and the involvement of police before being willing to act?”

Pell: “I would, ah, accept that the executive authorities did – were deficient in that way and, as for myself, I perhaps might have pushed a bit harder but I certainly went to the man who had the last word, explicitly asked him what the situation was and was told that there was not sufficient evidence to remove [abusive priest Peter Searson].

“I did not query that, and I believe I did not have sufficient evidence to query it so, in those terms, I believe that I have acted responsibly.”

Furness: “Cardinal, is there anything that you did as auxiliary bishop that touched upon priests and allegations, rumours or concerns of child sexual abuse by those priests, that you consider wanting or deficient in any way?”

Pell: “I think the matters you raised about ascribing resignations to ill health, that is one area of regret. Other than that, I don’t believe there is.”

Furness: “Thank you Cardinal. I have nothing further.”

The chair of the commission, Justice Peter McClellan, is now asking closing questions of his own. And lawyers might have questions to ask of Pell too.

Updated

More on conservative News Ltd columnist, Andrew Bolt, and his coverage of the royal commission, this time from the Australian;

Columnist Andrew Bolt has stepped back from his harsh criticism of Cardinal George Pell in his most recent column, after regretting he had “joined the pack” of critics.

In his syndicated column for News Corp Australia today, Bolt, who has secured an exclusive interview with Cardinal Pell at the conclusion of his testimony, wrote Pell had “uttered words that will stain his reputation forever” and the “rightly aggressive” royal commission now “seems poised to consider whether this prince of the Catholic church is a liar”.

This morning on Sky News, for which Mr Bolt is reporting as a special contributor in Rome, he said he felt “embarrassed because I think I’ve joined the pack attacking Pell”.

Full story here.

Updated

A meeting was held to "identify means of protecting assets in the event of successful litigation following allegations of sexual abuse”

In December 1993 a meeting was held by senior figures in the church to “identify means of protecting assets in the event of successful litigation following allegations of sexual abuse”, Furness says. Pell was present at that meeting.

Furness: “You recall at this time, 1993, that that was an active issue in the church, how to protect its assets if it is successfully sued in child sexual abuse claims?”

Pell: “... that certainly wasn’t the only consideration but that certainly was a consideration.”

Furness: “This item in the minutes suggests that, at that stage, all that was being considered was how to protect diocese assets in the effect of successful litigation?”

Pell: “I don’t think that is a justified conclusion, either about myself or the other participates but it was very important to know where we were about the money.”

Updated

Guardian Australia’s media correspondent, Amanda Meade, has filed this piece on News Ltd columnist, Andrew Bolt, and his coverage of Pell’s evidence;

News Corp columnist Andrew Bolt, a staunch defender of Cardinal George Pell, has declared the Catholic cleric’s evidence at the royal commission on Tuesday “disastrous” and the case against him “very damning”.

In a dramatic reversal of his consistent defence of Pell, the Herald Sun commentator now says the Vatican’s finance chief was either lying or “dangerously indifferent” to the fact children were being raped.

On Tuesday afternoon Bolt stunned viewers when he told Sky News Australia that he had just witnessed Pell’s cross-examination in the hearing room in Rome and it was “terrible” and his image was forever damaged.

Read Amanda’s full piece here and follow her on Twitter here.

A Catholic priest, Father David Daniel, who repeatedly sexually abused children throughout his 20-year career as a priest, also resigned “for health reasons”, Furness tells the commission.

Daniel was charged with 18 offences and was, in 2000, deemed a serious sexual offender under the Crimes Act.

Pell tells the commission; “I can’t remember when I heard about Daniel’s behaviour, but it is likely that I heard about it before this resignation.”

Updated

The commission has resumed and Furness has turned her attention to prominent Melbourne Catholic priest Father Desmond Gannon, who has been sentenced five times for sexually abusing children.

Gannon admitted to sexual abuse yet his resignation was publicly attributed to health reasons, Furness says.

Furness: “Were you informed in your role as auxiliary bishop and effectively consultor or adviser of the reason why Gannon had resigned?”

Pell “Yes, I think I would have been.”

Furness: “Were you aware at that time that his resignation either was going to or had been publicly attributed to health reasons?”

Pell: “Probably, yes.”

Furness: “Did you have the position or capacity to influence whether or not that was going to happen if it was beforehand? That is, that he be permitted to retire on those grounds and that the resignation be publicly attributed to health?”

Pell: “No, I don’t remember being consulted about it. If I had of, been consulted I would have had the capacity to object.”

Updated

The evidence this morning has focused largely on what Cardinal George Pell knew of the offending of Father Peter Searson.

Countless complaints had been made to senior figures within the church about Searson, the commission heard, and Pell too had been presented with a list of grievances about Searson’s behaviour, which included bringing a gun to school and torturing animals in front of children.

I wrote about Searson in November. Here is an excerpt from that piece;

A victim of child sexual abuse at the hands of a Melbourne priest, Peter Searson, has told a royal commission that he now sits at home in the dark with the door locked because it is the only place he feels safe.

The victim, identified only as BVD, said the abuse had begun when he was about nine years old in 1978, while he was serving as an altar boy at the Our Lady of Carmel parish in Sunbury. Searson was the parish priest and BVD was ordered to mow his lawn and wash his car.

“He was a very scary man and and very intimidating, with a gaze that would just pierce you like he was looking right through you,” BVD told the royal commission into institutional responses into child sexual abuse in Melbourne on Tuesday.

“I was very submissive as a child and I was very scared of Searson.”

Searson would order BVD to come inside with him every Saturday after he had finished washing his car, he said, and the priest’s behaviour progressed from drying BVD’s genitals to raping him.

“That happened nearly every Saturday for six months,” BVD said, breaking down into tears. “Searson threatened me, telling me I would go to hell if I told anyone. I was terrified. The only person I was more scared of than Searson was my mother. There was no way I could tell her what was happening.”

Melissa Davey with you here. We’re about 10 minutes away from the commission recommencing after a short break. You can share your thoughts with me on Twitter or on Facebook.

Updated

I’ve been reading Italian papers to find out how Pell’s testimony has been reported. Corriere della Sera leads with Pell’s admission the Catholic church “has committed many great errors ... [it] caused serious harms in many places and disappointed the faithful”.

Public broadcaster Rai says Pell met the Pope in the morning and before the evening of his second day of hearings, and Pell has declared he has the Pope’s “full support”.

Corriere della Sera says the most embarrassing moment was when Pell admitted he knew Leo Fitzgerald used to swim nude with students and kiss them, but the general consensus was that he was eccentric but fairly harmless.

Corriere della Sera tweet picks up on Pell’s statement that the Ridsdale case “was not of great interest to me”.

Corriere della Sera leads with reaction to Pell saying Ridsdale case “was not of great interest to me”, reports boos/hisses and exclamations of derision. And Il Post mentions the Guardian’s coverage as an example of an international newspaper describing the hearing as historic, and that Guardian wrote “this is the first time a case that highlights the responsibility of the church for covering up paedophile.

A short adjournment

As the commission says it will sit for an extra hour today.

The evidence will resume in 20 minutes or so.

Updated

Pell tells the commission that he knew Father Searson was a serious problem. He has been presented with a list of concerns about Searson’s behaviour by the Catholic Education Office, which included a report that he had abused animals in front of children.

“Yes, I knew he was a serious problem,” Pell says.

Furness: “You knew he was such a serious problem that he shouldn’t be a priest, didn’t you?”

Pell: “No, I didn’t come to that conclusion. The position I accepted was the official position given to me that we did not have sufficient evidence to remove him.”

Updated

McClellan tells Pell abuse survivors don't always go to police, but that doesn't mean their allegations of abuse are not true

Pell tells the commission that if the police are unable to proceed because of lack of a lack of evidence, that is a significant factor “colouring what the church authorities might decide to do.”

Justice Peter McClellan will have none of it.

McClellan: “Cardinal, as you know, the royal commission has spoken now to almost 5,000 survivors. You understand that?”

Pell: “I do.”

McClellan: “I assume you are aware, that a great many people who have been affected by the conduct of others, sexual or physical assaults, do not wish to involve themselves in the criminal justice process. You understand that?”

Pell: “I do.”

McClellan: “But you understand that, for many of those people, the allegations that they would make are absolutely true.”

Pell: “That’s correct.”

McClellan: “Well, is it not the case that when the church has allegations before it, that the church had a responsibility itself to deal with those allegations irrespective of whether the police are able to take action because they have people who are prepared to give evidence in a court?”

Pell: “Because they’re not prepared to, yes.”

Updated

ABC reporter Danny Tran is in Ballarat for the royal commission. He says Gail Furness’ description of Pell’s evidence and reasons for being deceived as “completely implausible” was met with applause.

Tran reported heated scenes earlier.

Some more analysis from Rome from Guardian reporter, Stephanie Kirchgaessner.

We have not seen a fiery, aggressive Pell here in the Verdi Room, even though he is often described that way. But it is clear that the cardinal from Australia is becoming more assertive in his testimony.

On the first day, he acknowledged hearing references to abuse that he never followed up. Then, on Tuesday, he insisted he never heard about suspicions that Gerald Ridsdale was a serial pedophile.

Now he has gone a step further: saying he was purposely not told about abuse because his fellow officials knew that he would shake-up the status quo. Gail Furness, it is fair to say, believes none of it.

On Sunday, Miranda Devine published a column in the Daily Telegraph, criticising the “unrestrained vitriol spewed” at Pell, “the first [churchman] to respond with a plan to help victims”.
Clare Linane of Ballarat published an open letter in response on her personal Facebook page.

She wrote that her husband, brother and cousin were sexually abused by Brother Edward Dowlan; her husband is currently in Rome.

Her post, in which she responds to Devine’s column point by point, is worth reading in full, but here’s an excerpt:

[On] your concern about George Pell given his frail health. Here I will lift my hands and declare my total lack of objectivity. Miranda, after being abused at 11, the way my husband was treated by the representatives of the church was heart-breaking, and was an abuse all over again. He went to Towards Healing for help in 2006; they funded approximately 10 counselling sessions then refused to fund anymore. They wanted him to ‘come to the table’ to settle this matter. In other words, they wanted him to accept a payout, sign a confidentiality agreement, and go away.

This left him with no choice but to pursue legal avenues; a cruel, frustrating process that nearly killed him. At the absolute lowest point in his life, where he had lost his ability to work, lost most of his assets, lost half of his family, lost his business, lost his sense of self-esteem, and battled suicidal thoughts daily, the representatives of the church – the church of which George Pell is effectively Australian CEO – demonstrated no compassion whatsoever. We were tiny ants taking on an elephant; we would pay $5,000 to have a QC represent us, only to have the church postpone on a technicality on the day. Not once, but three times they did this to us. I often said to my husband, “I’m sure they think if they keep drawing this out you’ll eventually crack and just top yourself”. He didn’t.


I know that he is just one of hundreds who were treated with total disregard for their well-being by church representatives; not just 40 years ago, but recently, whilst George Pell was in charge, and therefore ultimately accountable. So Miranda, no; I am not worried about George’s ‘frail health’ whilst he testifies. I’m sure he will be fine. I’m far more worried about my husband and friends.

Linane concludes by saying that the royal commission is not about Pell, or the survivors as individuals: it is about a commitment to action by the church to implement, among other things, a national redress scheme and program of education and peer support.

Her post has received considerable coverage but Devine has not publicly responded, though she did refer to the responses to her column, some of which were “bile-flecked”, in quoting a since-deleted tweet.


She also tweeted a link to “some facts the Pell haters refuse to accept” care of the Catholic Weekly.

Updated

Furness: “There is reference ... to Father Searson stabbing to death a bird in front of the children.”

Pell: “Yes.”

Furness: “Did that come to your attention?”

Pell: “At some stage I think, I don’t know whether the bird was already dead but at some stage I certainly was informed of this bizarre happening.”

Furness: “Does it matter whether the bird was dead or it was stabbed when it was dead?”

Pell: “Not really. Not really.”

Updated

Pell says the senor figures around him deceived him about the extent of abuse within the Catholic church

Furness doesn’t accept Pell’s evidence that he was unaware of the abuse inflicted on children by Ridsdale and Searson. She also does not accept Pell’s evidence that that senior figures who worked alongside him who knew of the abuse deliberately didn’t tell him about it.

Furness says; “So we now have the CEO deceiving you and the archbishop deceiving you and concealing information from you as well as Bishop Mulkearns and one or more of the consultors in the Ballarat diocese?”

Pell: “That is correct.”

Furness: “It is an extraordinary position, Cardinal.”

Pell: “Um, counsel, this was an extraordinary world. A world of crimes and cover ups. And people did not want the status quo to be disturbed.”

Furness: “You put yourself in this world as being the person who would disturb the status quo, do you?”

Pell: “I not only disturbed the status quo but when I became archbishop, I turned the situation right around so that the Melbourne Response procedures were light years ahead of all this obfuscation and prevarication and deception.”

[Note - The Melbourne Response scheme has been widely criticised by victims and their families throughout the course of the commission, for lacking independence, and for capping compensation payouts to victims at $75,000.]

Furness: “I suggest that, indeed, you did have knowledge in relation to Father Ridsdale’s misconduct either during in or shortly after the consultor’s meeting in 1982. What do you say to that?”

Pell: “I repeat that that is inaccurate.”

Furness: “I suggest to you that the Catholic Education Office properly and adequately briefed you in relation to Father Searson.”

Pell: “No,they certainly did not properly and adequately brief me. There is no evidence to that effect whatsoever.”

Earlier in the proceedings, Furness showed the commission a long list of concerns about Searson that has been presented to Pell at the time. However, Pell said the list, which included allegations of animal abuse and using the children’s toilet, was not enough to reveal Searson’s extensive abusing history.

Updated

For the second time in two days, Furness tells Pell his evidence is 'implausible' and adds it is 'designed to deflect blame'

Furness says to Pell: “Cardinal, I have to suggest to you that your evidence in relation to not being briefed properly or adequately by the Catholic Education Office [about Searson abusing children], and the reasons for that, are completely implausible.”

Pell replies; “Um, counsel, I can only tell you the truth, the whole story of Searson is quite implausible and the cover-up is equally implausible. I can only tell you the way it was as far as I’m concerned.”

Furness: “I suggest,Cardinal, that the evidence you have given has been designed to deflect blame from you on doing nothing in relation to Father Searson that had any real effect after the delegation came to you.”

Pell: “Um, that is not accurate because I took up the matter with the archbishop himself.”

Yesterday, Furness put it to Pell that it was implausible he did not know that notorious paedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale, was abusing children, given it was common knowledge and that Pell held a senior position within the Ballarat diocese, where Ridsdale was abusing. Pell denied the allegation.

Updated

An extraordinary exchange between McClellan and Pell

Pell tells the commission that the reason everyone around him was informed of Searson’s comprehensive and long term abusing of children, but he wasn’t, was because the Catholic Education Office knew he would ask “inconvenient questions” if he was informed.

Furness asked Pell; “Why would it be they would single out you not to tell information to when they’d readily told it to the archbishop and the vicar general who had the power?”

Pell replies: “Because they realised very clearly I was not cut from the same cloth.”

Furness: “So they picked you out as someone who would have taken decisive action so, therefore, they would keep from you information to enable you to take that action, is that right?”

Pell: “That might be overstating their position but they might not have been certain I would take decisive action but they would have been fearful that I would and pretty certain that I would have asked all sorts of inconvenient questions if I’d been better briefed.”

McClellan intervenes here. He says Pell’s evidence doesn’t make sense. If the Catholic Education Office didn’t want questions to be asked about the abuse, why would they have told other senior figures about Searson’s behaviour, McClellan asks.

McClellan says to Pell; “it makes no sense at all for the education office to want to cover up to you, does it?”

Pell: “I don’t think that follows in anyway whatsoever.”

It was quite an extraordinary exchange.

Updated

Pell: 'I don't think I was obliged to do anything more than I did'

Furness: “Your job as auxiliary bishop was for you to apply your mind and experience to matters that came to you in the role as auxiliary bishop, isn’t that right?”

Pell: “That is correct.”

Furness: “What did you do to apply your mind to the list of grievances that was provided to you to consider for yourself as auxiliary bishop what could and should be done in relation to [child abuser] Father Searson?”

Pell: “Um ... I went and sought advice from the executive arms that were regularly used. I thought that was adequate.”

Furness: “What do you say about the adequacy of it now, Cardinal?”

Pell: “No, it was plainly inadequate.”

Furness: “What should you have done?”

Pell: “I don’t think I was obliged to do anything more than I did because it took it to the archbishop and asked what should be done.”

Furness: “Then when you say that it was plainly inadequate, what was it that was inadequate in relation to your conduct?”

Pell: “I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to say any such thing. What I said was inadequate was the information and briefing given to me.”

He then adds he could have perhaps been a little more pushy.

Updated

Pell says he was only told about the allegations against Father Searson in a “non-specific way”.

Furness: “I’m sorry, when you say a non-specific way, perhaps you can tell us what it was that you were told about allegations of sexual misconduct against Searson?”

Pell: “No. I can’t remember exactly what was alleged.”

McClellan asks: “Now, having been told, if you say, in a generalised way of allegations of sexual misconduct, did you not think it necessary for you and as the auxiliary bishop to satisfy yourself that those allegations have been properly investigated and have been properly resolved?”

Pell replied that he took the Catholic Education Office’s word that the complaints had been dealt with appropriately.

McClellan: “That is not quite my question. I asked you whether you accepted the responsibility to ensure that they had been promptly investigated and properly resolved.”

Pell: “I didn’t have an investigative capacity.”

Updated

The Guardian’s correspondent in Rome, Stephanie Kirchgaessner, has filed some analysis on the request from survivors of child sexual abuse to meet with Pope Francis in Rome;

Will he or won’t he? It is far from clear whether Pope Francis will meet with a group of abuse survivors who have come to Rome from Australia to witness Cardinal Pell’s testimony. The pope has met with survivors of sex abuse twice since he was elected pope in 2013: once in the Vatican and once on his trip last year to the US.

He has been criticised at times for not meeting more frequently with victims: he did not meet with victims on his recent trip to Mexico and he did not respond to a demand by a survivor, Peter Saunders, when Saunders was in Rome recently to attend a meeting of the pope’s special commission to develop policies to prevent and address clerical sexual abuse.

The pope is often seen as a man who disdains being pressured into any decision or being forced into a meeting due to media pressure. But the Catholic church is facing new scrutiny on several fronts: from questions about the adequacy of the church’s policy on when to report suspected abuse, to damaging revelations that have emerged about Cardinal Pell – and the questions he failed to ask – in his commission testimony, to a new report out of Pennsylvania about decades of alleged abuse of hundreds of children and attempts to cover up the abuse.

If Pope Francis feels he needs to more forcefully address the abuse issue, a meeting with the survivors could be a good way to start.

You can follow Stephanie’s updates on Twitter here.

Updated

Furness reminds Pell that a delegation came to him in 1989, when he held the position of regional bishop, to complain about Searson’s behaviour towards children.

Before this meeting, Pell was provided with a list of grievances against Searson, Furness says, producing the list for the commission. That list was put together by the Catholic Education Office.

The list included various health and safety issues in relation to Searson’s behaviour. A small group of children were shown a dead body in a coffin, and also witnessed Searson’s cruelty to an animal.

The complaint also said Searson used the children’s toilets and harassed them, as well as demanded children attend reconciliation with him without warning and one-on-one.

However, Pell says he had “no adequate background briefing on the long-term problems [of Searson] at all”.

Justice Peter McClellan interjects. He points out that Pell had been briefed by the education office about grievances against Searson.

Pell replies, “The education office, through the local person, did not give me anything like adequate information.”

Updated

Back to Father Searson, a notorious child abuser who was never reported to police by the church despite numerous complaints made against him to senior religious figures. Searson died in 2009 without ever being charged.

Furness puts it to Pell that Searson’s behaviour should have been referred to police, especially when it came to light that he had assaulted a girl, and abused a cat.

Furness: “So there is no doubt he should have been sent off to the police, that is right?”

Pell: “Yes. I’m happy to take your word for that.”

Furness: “Well, rather than take my word for it, there’s an allegation that he assaulted a child, isn’t there?”

Pell: “Yes.”

Furness: “And that allegation should have gone to the police, shouldn’t it?”

Pell: “Yes. Normally the consent of the parent or the child involved would be obtained before it went to the police. Before you took to it the police.”

Updated

From the Guardian’s federal politics reporter in Canberra - comments from opposition leader, Bill Shorten.

Updated

'We want a meeting with the pope' - survivors

Child sexual abuse survivors from Ballarat watching Pell’s evidence in Rome have just held a press conference calling for a meeting with head of the Roman Catholic Church, Pope Francis.

Their statement said, “We are flying back to Australia on Friday and we’d like to think we can get a meeting.”

Survivor Philip Nagle said, “We’re getting a little bit tired of hearing what George is saying up there one the stand. We want to be heard. We want someone to show that they care about us.

“You guys are watching Pell up there. He’s giving us nothing. He’s turned his back on us. We want a commitment from the pope that children will be safe.”

Abuse survivor David Ridsdale said; “We’ve seen here a lack of systems that were able to identify and deal with any problems.”

Too many people said “I didn’t think it was my job” to protect children, he told reporters.

Another survivor, Andrew Collins, said the group sent an email requesting a meeting with the pope last week.

“We were told we could only make a formal request via fax”. The survivors sent the fax, “but we still haven’t said anything,” he said.

Nagle said the survivors were no longer interested in Pell’s offer to meet with them. It was Pope Francis that they wanted to hear from, he said, and he wanted a commitment that no child would be abused within the church again.

Updated

Morning adjournment

The evidence will resume in about 15 minutes.

This morning, Furness focussed on the widespread abuse at the hands of Peter Searson. Complaints made across two and a half years between 1984 and 1986, were never been acted upon by senior parish staff, including the then archbishop Frank Little, the commission heard. Searson died in 2009 without having faced charges.

There is nothing to suggest Pell knew Searson was abusing children at the time, however Pell did say he viewed Searson as “one of the most unpleasant priests I met”.

Updated

Child abuse was Archbishop Little's 'blind-spot'

Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, is painting a picture of just how many people around Pell knew that Searson was abusing children, sexually, physically and verbally.

Pell was unaware of this abusing. Archbishop Frank Little, however, was told repeatedly abuse the complaints against Searson, Furness says. One teacher refused to send her class to Searson alone.

Furness: “Now it’s the case, isn’t it, Cardinal, that at this stage. that Father Searson should have been stood down at the very least?”

Pell: “That is correct.”

Furness: “Do you think this is an example of what Bishop Connors referred to as Archbishop’s Little’s blind-spot?”

Pell: “Archbishop Little for some reason seemed incapable or unable to deal with Father Searson, or even to provide any adequate level of information about the situation. Yes, you could say one way of describing it is a blind-spot.”

Updated

Furness tells the commission; “... Father Searson had a tape recorder going while having confession... Father Searson asked children to kneel between his legs when they go to confession.”

These concerns were raised to archbishop Little, Furness said. She said Searson also used a tape recorder to record these confessions.

Furness; “Those complaints, taken together with the previous complaints I referred to, increased the suspicion of Father Searson in relation to his conduct with girls. Doesn’t it? And particularly having children kneel between his legs when giving confession is quite abhorrent, isn’t it?”

Pell: “Yes, it is... it would have been would have to have been established by an inquiry and it is abhorrent and something to be investigated.”

Furness: “When you say it needed to be established from an inquiry, it’s clear that Father Searson accepted that he had been playing the tape recorder. So in fact you don’t need an investigation because you have the allegation and the allegation being admitted. Don’t you?”

Pell: “Yes, I said at least an investigation.That would have been referred to some person in authority for effect of action.”

Furness: “It was referred to someone in authority wasn’t it?Because it was referred from the vicar general to the Archbishop. It’s hard to imagine more authority than that.”

Updated

Furness says a complaint about Searson was made to an educational consultant at the Catholic Education Office, Allan Dooley.

Furness says a mother phoned Dooley “because her daughter was concerned that he [Searson] made reference to her daughter’s weight and tickled her on the stomach and said ‘don’t ever look at yourself in the shower’.”

Pell: “That is terrible.”

Updated

Pell says child abuser Peter Searson was 'one of the most unpleasant priests I met'

Furness asks Pell when he first became aware of parish priest Peter Searson who had two years worth of complaints against him including that he was sexually abusing children, had tortured animals and had brought a gun to school.

Furness: “Now, when did Father Searson first come to your attention after you were made auxiliary bishop?”

Pell: “I can’t recall exactly. I presume it would be the first time I visited the [Sunbury] parish, probably in connection with a confirmation.”

Furness: “Do you recall now whether you had formed an early view of him?”

Pell: “Um, yes. He was a disconcerting man. In fact, at his worst moments he could be described as one of the most unpleasant priests that I’ve met, although he didn’t show that side of his personality to me very often. But I quickly learned that he was a difficult customer.”

Updated

Furness is presenting Pell with historical documents detailing the abuses of parish priest Peter Searson. As previously mentioned, Searson had numerous complaints made against him to senior church figures, was never reported to police, and died without ever being charged.

Furness shows Pell a complaint “expressing the view that Searson was psychologically unsuitable to be a pastor or the pastor of that [Sunbury] parish”.

Documents show that senior church staff decided to constantly review the situation rather than report Searson, the commission hears.

“I think it was completely inadequate,” Pell says.

Updated

Pell says when he was auxiliary bishop, he appointed Denis Hart as his vicar general and that “it was a very successful appointment”.

“I think his work as vicar general, especially in the matter of sexual abuse, constituted a very, very significant advance and improvement. I knew him a bit, I spoke to him off and on, I encouraged him. Father Hart was a formidably good administrator.”

Updated

Furness is now questioning Pell about a parish priest, Peter Searson. The royal commission heard last year that complaints about Searson, made across two and a half years between 1984 and 1986, were never acted upon by senior parish staff, including the then archbishop Frank Little.

Complaints came in from parents daily and ranged from concerns about Searson sexually abusing children to his bizarre way of running confession by having children sit on his lap. He also displayed strange behaviours such as carrying a gun to school and cruelty towards animals.

Pell says that Little “had a lot of information which he never made available to me” about Searson.

“I discovered that somebody had prepared a list of infractions, a page and a half. I was never informed that this had been prepared and I was never informed about the variety and the seriousness of the problems in Sunbury.”

Searson died in 2009 without ever facing charges. The commission has previously heard he abused children in parishes and schools across three districts over more than a decade.

Updated

The commission hears that Archbishop Little, who knew priests were abusing children but moved them between parishes rather than report them to police or remove them from the church, resigned four years early.

Furness: “Now Archbishop Little ultimately resigned on grounds of ill health, didn’t he?”

Pell: “That was what was said and he certainly had four or five different health problems.”

Furness: “When you say that was said, are you suggesting that there were other reasons for his resignation other than what was said?”

Pell: “I can’t give any book, chapter and verse on this but he resigned four years early and I suspect his situation would have paralleled that of Bishop Mulkearns, who resigned early, perhaps eight years early, and has pointed out that one of the reasons for this early resignation was problems with the treatment, the way he handled paedophilia cases.”

Furness: “Bishop Mulkearns gave evidence that he decided for himself he wasn’t handling those matters well and therefore resigned. Was it the case with Archbishop Little that he decided for himself or that it was suggested to him that his handling of those complaints was deficient?”

Pell: “Both the bishops would have had to offer their resignation. As I said, I can’t give book, chapter and verse but it would not surprise me if Archbishop Little was requested to put in his resignation. But he certainly was sick.”

Updated

'Archbishop Little on some occasions did not act when he should have'

Furness is now turning her attention to Archbishop Frank Little.

The commission has previously heard evidence that Little, who held the position of Melbourne archbishop from 1974 to 1996, kept secret files full of “letters of complaint from all sorts of people, from parents especially, from offended people”.

Pell criticises Little, telling Furness; “Archbishop Little on some occasions did not act when he should have and certainly did not make appropriate information available to the personnel advisory board on some occasions.”

Furness: “Now are there other aspects of his handling such complaints that you’re critical of? You’ve described the provision of information.”

Pell: “Yes, allowing people to remain in place and sometimes transferring such people.”

Updated

Meanwhile, here are the front pages of the Victorian newspapers today.

Updated

Pell is now referring to canon law, those laws which are enforced by the hierarchical authorities of the church. He’s detailing what canon law said about the authority certain roles within the church held.

“I think the first, and I’m not trying to be flippant, the first point of the canon law makes is, I think, that ultimately the auxiliary bishop has no authority to take decisions against the will of the archbishop,” Pell says.

Updated

Furness is now turning to Pell’s time in Melbourne. He was appointed parish priest of Mentone in 1987, and shortly after, he was appointed as an auxiliary bishop of the Archdiocese of Melbourne.

During his time as auxiliary bishop, in 1996, Pell introduced the Melbourne Response, which has previously been a strong focus of the royal commission.

The Melbourne Response scheme has been widely criticised by victims and their families throughout the course of the commission, for lacking independence, and for capping compensation payouts to victims at $75,000.

Furness asks Pell whether in his role as auxiliary bishop, he maintained a role in moving priests between parishes.

Pell: “Let me just say by way of background, I was an archbishop for 18 years and in the decisions that I took on personnel matters I would never think of attributing blame to either the consultors or the advisory board because I recognised that as archbishop they were my decisions.”

Furness: “Blame about what?”

Pell: “I ... would not believe it is appropriate if, for example, I had made a wrong decision, that something didn’t work out. I didn’t think it would have been appropriate to blame my advisers for the decision that I had taken.”

Updated

Furness is now turning her questioning to Brother Edward Dowlan. In 2015 Dowlan was convicted of 16 counts of indecent assault against 11 boys at four different Christian Brothers’ schools and was sentenced to six years and six months in prison, with a four-year non-parole period.

His victims gave evidence to the commission last week. Rather than being reported to police, Dowlan was moved from parish to parish.

Pell said he knew there were “was a generalised suggestion, accusation, there was nothing specific” about Dowlan’s abusing at the time.

At this point chair of the commission, Justice Peter McClellan, begins pressing Pell.

McClellan: “You said the matter was resolved by him being moved. Correct?”

Pell: “I think he was moved at the end of 74.”

McClellan: “Did it not cause you concern that a brother against whom you had heard rumours of sexual activity with children was dealt with by being moved from one place to another?”

Pell. “No. One, I didn’t know exactly what he was accused of but 40 years ago or more than 40 years ago I ... did not think that was unusual or inappropriate.”

McClellan: “You mean it was not inappropriate to move someone who might be moved to a different location where they could continue to offend but against different children?”

Pell: “No, I don’t believe that now and I didn’t believe that then. My whole assumption would – or was that the brothers would be dealing adequately with the matter. I was not aware then of their poor record which I learnt about later in dealing with such things. I presumed that when they shifted him they would have also arranged for some appropriate help.”

McClellan: “You made these assumptions but I gather that you didn’t make any inquiry to see whether your assumptions were correct?”

Pell: “No, I did not.”

McClellan: “Did you tell the bishop?”

Pell: “No, I did not.”

Updated

The evidence begins, day three

Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, is following up her line of questioning from yesterday about whether the topic of children being abused was ever brought up at consultors meetings. As one of the consultors, Pell provided advice to the then bishop of Ballarat, Ronald Mulkearns.

Remember yesterday, Furness told Pell it was “implausible” that he did not know of the abuse given the majority of the consultors, Mulkearns, parents, teachers and students did.

Furness: “Your intention was to give evidence that at those meetings nothing was said that could be interpreted as sexual activity, misconduct or interference with children in abroad sense?”

Pell: “That’s my recollection.”

Furness: “So can I ask you whether outside of those consultors meetings and in particular the 1982 meeting there was discussion among one or more of the consultors about what was known of complaints against [abuser and paedophile Gerald] Ridsdale?

Pell: “I wasn’t aware of such discussions.”

Updated

Child sexual abuse survivors in Rome to watch Pell’s evidence have called for a global campaign of tying ribbons to fences and letterboxes to show support for abuse victims.

The campaign, called Loud Fence, began in Ballarat, with survivors and their supporters tying thousands of colourful ribbons tied to the fences surrounding Catholic schools and churches in the town.

Following the last round of gruelling hearings in December, the ribbons began cropping up on fences and people have not stopped adding to them since in a show of support for the survivors.

According to reports, conservative News Ltd media commentator, Andrew Bolt, has secured an exclusive interview with Pell, to be done once his evidence before the commission concludes.

Fairfax reports;

Viewers of Sky News Australia may have been shocked this week to find Andrew Bolt reporting on the royal commission into sex abuse from Rome.

The outspoken News Corp columnist has been sent to Rome as a Sky News contributor to cover Cardinal George Pell coming before the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse.

He appeared on 2GB on Monday night with presenter Steve Price suggesting Bolt will interview Pell later in the week.

“Andrew, while in Rome, is hopeful and we’re assured this is going to happen for us later in the week, Andrew will have an exclusive, one-on-one interview with Cardinal Pell, the most senior Australian in the Vatican, and that will go to air on Friday morning as I understand it,” Price said before crossing to Bolt.

The Australian has confirmed the news of the exclusive interview.

Emma and Katie Foster were repeatedly sexually abused by a Catholic priest when they were young girls at Sacred Heart primary school.

Their father, Anthony Foster, who is in Rome with a group of abuse survivors to watch Pell’s evidence, told media last night that he is “a broken man,” the ABC reports.

As a result of her abuse, Emma developed an eating disorder, became addicted to drugs and began self-harming.She died died at age 26 in 2008 after overdosing. Katie was hit by a drunk driver in 1999 and was left severely disabled, requiring 24-hour care.

The ABC reports;

Mr Foster confronted Cardinal Pell outside the hearing at the Hotel Quirinale, saying he had given up hope the Cardinal would fix the church’s so-called Melbourne Response to the abuse scandal.

“He held my hand for the whole duration of the chat that we had and I expressed to him that he was holding the hand of a broken man, and he put his other hand on me and tried to I suppose connect in some way, but I didn’t feel it,” Mr Foster said.

“Quest over. It was the smooth Cardinal Pell, not the Cardinal Pell we saw on the stand.”

You can read my interview with Foster, written before he gave evidence before the royal commission in 2014, here.

Updated

Welcome to our live coverage of the third day of Cardinal George Pell’s evidence before Australia’s royal commission into institutional responses into child sexual abuse.

It follows an explosive day of evidence yesterday led by questioning from counsel assisting, Gail Furness, with some of Pell’s responses to her questioning prompting gasps from those in the room on both the Sydney and Rome end of the proceedings.

For a recap of this, you can read Guardian writer David Marr’s excellent analysis here. Marr writes that Pell wasn’t much interested in stories of abuse by priests, which was lucky for his career;

From Pell’s evidence on the second day of his Roman cross-examination there emerged a picture of an ambitious and capable young priest who decided, early on, to steer clear of this dangerous issue.

On Monday Pell admitted knowing bits and pieces about some of the offenders and some of their crimes in Ballarat. He earned credibility for that. But on Tuesday he swore blind he knew nothing about the worst of them all: Ridsdale.

Fellow priests who knew the truth told him nothing. Complaints rife in several parishes never reached him. And his bishop, Ronald Mulkearns, never let him know about the complaints of Ridsdale’s abuse he had been fielding for a decade.

Pell called Mulkearns’ silence “a gross deception”.

But the devastating admission drawn from Pell by Gail Furness SC, counsel assisting the royal commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse, was that he never bothered to ask.

“It was a sad story and of not much interest to me,” he told the commission. By the late 1970s he was a busy priest running the Catholic Institute of Education. “I had no reason to turn my mind to the evils Ridsdale had perpetrated.”

Furness will no doubt press Pell just as hard today, after yesterday telling Pell it was “implausible” that he, as a consultor to bishop Mulkearns and an assistant priest, did not know that Ridsdale was abusing children.

Melissa Davey with you here. We’re about half an hour away from the commission commencing. You can share your thoughts with me then on Twitter or on Facebook.

Stay with us.

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