As it happened - Cardinal George Pell gives evidence from Rome
Reporter Ben Doherty has been in the commission hearings in Sydney and has filed a summary of the morning of evidence. He writes that;
- Cardinal George Pell told the royal commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse in Australia that the Catholic Church was more concerned with protecting its own reputation than helping victims of clergy abuse.
- Pell, Australia’s most senior Catholic, also conceded the church’s handling of child sexual abuse was “catastrophic” for its victims.
- Pell was fiercely critical of Bishop Ronald Mulkearns, the former bishop of Ballarat who gave evidence last week. Mulkearns destroyed incriminating documents before a Victorian parliamentary committee, Pell said, something he believed was “unacceptable”.
- Pell said in the early 1970s, when he first heard allegations of priests sexually abusing children, he was “strongly inclined” to believe the priests’ version of events.
- In 1972 Pell said he became aware of allegations Monsignor John Day had been sexually abusing children. But he was also aware Day had denied the allegations.
- The latter half of Pell’s evidence on Monday morning was dominated by interrogation over his knowledge of offending by Christian Brothers at St Alipius primary school and St Patrick’s college in Ballarat in the early 1970s.
- It was, Pell said, common knowledge that staff swimming naked with young boys had occurred. Pell said the incident was unusual, and an “imprudent” act but “no improprieties were every alleged to me”.
- He agreed that sexual offending at the school’s was known to a “significant number” of people in the community.
You can read Ben’s full story here.
We’re going to close off our live coverage of the royal commission for now. I’ll be back reporting live from 8am tomorrow morning, when Cardinal George Pell again appears via videolink from Rome. You can share your thoughts with me then on Twitter or on Facebook.
Updated
Video; Pell is asked about what he knew of abuse in Ballarat
“My memory might be playing me false.”
When asked, ‘So it may have happened but you can’t remember now?’, Pell objects, saying: ‘No I think you’re putting words into my mouth. I don’t remember any such thing happening and therefore I don’t believe it did. But my memory is sometimes fallible’
Guardian reporter, Stephanie Kirchgaessner, has spoken to a few more of the survivors in Rome. Here’s her update;
Among survivors, there was a sense of disappointment among some - as well as anger - and of anticipation that there was still far more in store for Pell.
Anthony Foster, whose two daughters, Emma and Katie, were abused by a pedophile priest, said the solicitor has clearly used her four hours with Pell to set the groundwork for a few more days of testimony.
“There was a clear establishment that everyone around him knew,” Foster said.
Paul Levey, an abuse survivor, said he hoped the commission still had some “trump cards” up their sleeve. There was a worry, at least among some, that what is perceived as the “last crack” at Pell might not reveal everything they want to hear, in part because they see Pell as exceedingly sharp and careful with his words.
Andrew Collins, who survived sexual abuse by four separate men when he was a child in Ballarat - when he was 7, 11, 12, and 14, by a teacher, a priest, and two monks - said he was most looking forward to survivors’ own solicitors putting questions to Pell.
His own devastating history was not all that unusual, he said, given that most victims had been abused by various people at the time.
“Nearly every child would have come into contact with a pedophile - and not just Catholics - but they laid a foundation,” he said.
Abuse survivor, Stephen Woods, has sent through some thoughts from Rome. You can read more about his story here.
There was so much media here in the room, so much interest by international media. There were huge numbers in the room. A lot of the survivors are frustrated, they want to hear Pell say that he really messed up. What we want to see is him being really candid.
I’ve spoken to abuse survivor and head of the Care Leavers Australia Network [CLAN], Leonie Sheedy, who drove from Geelong to Sydney to sit-in on the hearing.
Sheedy and her group of survivors, who she affectionately refers to as “clannies,” have travelled to almost every hearing of the royal commission since it first began investigating institutional abuse in 2013.
Protestors @CLAN_AU have brought their message to Sydney for #Pell @CARoyalComm hearing. pic.twitter.com/Sf3A76LaBT
— Shannon Deery (@s_deery) February 28, 2016
“I think that it’s very interesting that Pell could describe in detail the rooms where he lived in Ballarat, and the buildings, and he could remind Furness about exactly how far Swan Hill was from Mildura, but when it came to pedophile priests suddenly he just didn’t know anything,” Sheedy says.
“I also found it unbelievable that Pell said boys swimming in the nude with their superiors did not register as a problem to him.”
Sheedy says she hopes that in the next few days, Furness presses Pell about what action he took when he finally did become aware of the child sexual abuse that had occurred within the Diocese of Ballarat, even if he did not know about it while he worked there.
Eight CLAN members attended the Sydney end of the hearings, she said. It was an emotional day for them, because one of their members, a 71 year-old abuse survivor, had died overnight.
“We tied a black ribbon outside the court and held hands and remembered all those who died in care, after they left care, and those who took their own lives,” Sheedy said.
Black ribbon #GaryO'Neil 71yo died 3am #Wyong #Hospital 2day G was in #StVincents #Orphanage #Westmead #NSW #RIP pic.twitter.com/XwTmFwM3AF
— CLAN (@CLAN_AU) February 28, 2016
Updated
Some reaction to the morning of evidence from Stephanie Kirchgaessner in Rome;
“Observers were standing but remained in place as Pell slowly walked up the aisle toward the door after his testimony concluded.Survivors said he attempted to make eye contact with at least one, but that they diverted their gaze. Pell shook hands with two journalists before heading out the door.
“I’m a bit pissed off,” said Dominic Ridsdale, who was abused by his uncle, the notorious pedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale. “A bit angry.
“He’s sharp in some subjects and selective in others,” he said.
Another survivor, Paul Levey, said he hoped that solicitors had some “trump cards” up their sleeve, “It was disgusting the way he said the church ‘mucked up’, like he was talking about naughty little kids at school. Seeing him get escorted threw us back a bit.
We had to walk through the media scrum and he went through the back door. I’m glad he walked past everyone on the way out,” Levey said.
The commission adjourns
The commission has adjourned for the morning, and Pell will again appear tomorrow morning at 8am eastern states time. His evidence is expected to go over four half-days.
Furness finished by asking about Father Dan Torpy, who had a role counselling priests in the church who were known or suspected to be abusing children. She asked Pell about what he knew of this set-up, and if he ever referred any priests on for counselling.
“I don’t think I did,” Pell said. There weren’t many counselling services available at that time for abusers, he said.
I’ll post reaction from survivors in Australia and Rome shortly.
Updated
Pell tells Furness that the 1960s were a “turbulent time” for the Catholic church.
This was the ‘60s. We had the Vatican Council and you would remember at the start of the ‘60s we had the invention of the contraceptive pill which has provoked a social revolution.
The 1960s were "a difficult time" Cardinal Pell says. The Pill, the sexual revolution...
— Dan Box (@DanBox10) February 28, 2016
The commission is now turning its attention back to notorious pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale.
Ridsdale committed more than 130 offences against children as young as four between the 1960s and 1980s, including while working as a school chaplain at St Alipius boys’ school in Ballarat, the royal commission into institutional responses into child sexual abuse has previously heard. He is now in prison.
Pell, who supported Ridsdale during his first court appearance for child sex offences in 1993, has always denied knowing of any child abuse occurring in Ballarat while he worked there as a priest and with a clerical group called the College of Consultors during the 1970s and 1980s. Pell also spent time living with Gerald Ridsdale in 1973, but has said he had no idea he was a paedophile.
Furness: “Did anything come to your attention when you were in Swan Hill about Father Ridsdale and innuendo, gossip, rumours about sexual misconduct with children?”
Pell: “No.”
Furness: “No rumours about him at all?”
Pell: “No rumours of sexual misconduct.”
Many people knew of the abuse, but Pell maintains he did not
Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, is running Pell through the long list of people who knew about abuse occurring within the Diocese of Ballarat. Pell has maintained despite this widespread knowledge, he did not know about child sexual abuse definitively occurring within the diocese while he was an assistant priest at Ballarat East.
Furness: “Cardinal, it seems doesn’t it, that there was knowledge around Ballarat East about the offending of a number of brothers, that’s right?”
Pell: “Yes, there was some knowledge, you’ve demonstrated that.”
Furness: The knowledge was held by a range of people, there were students who had the knowledge,you’d agree with that?”
Pell: “Some students, yes.”
Furness continued that there were also teachers, principals, and parents who knew what was going on.
Furness: “From the material I’ve taken you to, you’d agree wouldn’t you that the knowledge of the sexual offending by Christian Brothers at St Alpius school and St Pat’s school was known by a significant number in the community. Would you agree with that?
Pell: “I would agree that it was known to all the people whom you’ve mentioned and they do constitute a significant number.”
Updated
Some reactions from Twitter;
#Pell getting visibly annoyed.
— Jim Pembroke (@Jim_Pembroke) February 28, 2016
"No such recollection" "No such recollection"
Inconceivable that he wouldn't know about abuse. #ABCNews24
Infractions.
— Duncan Watson (@DuncanWatson8) February 29, 2016
Eccentricities.
Indiscretions.
Misbehaviour.
Say what you like about #Pell, he has a great way with euphemisms for molestation.
It's 1am in Rome and bleary eyes are watching 4th hour of #Pell evidence. Total silence from abuse survivors, listening intently. @abcnews
— Emily Bryan (@EmilyBryan) February 29, 2016
Furness asks Pell if he was told of complaints made about Brother Dowlan abusing children.
Pell: “No.”
Furness: “No?”
Pell: “No, the conduct that was brought to my attention was unspecified except that it was somehow wrong or untoward.”
Furness: “What about Brother Dowlan putting his hands down boys’ trousers?”
Pell: “No.”
Former New South Wales premier Kristina Keneally is a must-follow if you’ve been following the royal commission on Twitter.
A prominent commentator in the Catholic community, and holding a Master’s degree in theology, she has has been live-tweeting the royal commission this morning.
#royalcommission - Did parents raise complaints re inappropriate touching?
— Kristina Keneally (@KKeneally) February 28, 2016
Pell: can't remember any but my memory might be playing me false
Pell: I wasn't aware of Bishop Mulkearns sending anyone off for treatment for sexual offending. #royalcommission
— Kristina Keneally (@KKeneally) February 28, 2016
#royalcommission - Cardinal Pell what do you recall?
— Kristina Keneally (@KKeneally) February 28, 2016
Pell: I don't want to rule things out that may have taken place but that I can't recall
#royalcommission asking a wide range of questions. Not yet zeroing in on some specific evidence. Setting stage for the next few days.
— Kristina Keneally (@KKeneally) February 28, 2016
Writing on a keynote speech given by Pell at an international financial conference in Rome last month, Keneally commented that the Catholic church is a “slow-moving beast, especially when it comes to social and economic reforms”.
At that stage it was unclear if or when Pell would appear at the royal commission.
“My prediction – we won’t see Cardinal Pell physically in Australia again, at least until the Royal Commission has completed its work and submitted its findings. Perhaps never.”
She will be writing on Pell’s evidence at the royal commission for Guardian Australia later this week.
Last week the commission heard harrowing evidence from abuse survivor, Timothy Barlow, a former student of St Patrick’s College. He described St Patrick’s as “a survival of the fittest environment.”
“There were rumours among students at the school that the Brothers were sexually abusing some of the kids,” Barlow told the commission.
“I would describe it as common knowledge, because it was a topic of routine conversation among kids that this was going on.”
Barlow said he tried to stick up for the younger children who he knew who were being abused by the Brothers but was not taken seriously, even when he called his mother from the school and told her what was happening. He was subsequently bashed across the head.
Furness asks Pell: “Is that the sort of information that came to your attention in relation to Brother Dowlan?”
Pell: “No, nothing had been raised as gross as that at all.”
Furness is now asking Pell about Monsignor Lawrence O’Toole, who Pell described as a good friend of his. They lived together for a time at the presbytery.
Furness said O’Toole said that while he was at the Ballarat East presbytery, where Pell was an assistant priest, parents told him of sexualised conduct by the Christian Brothers.
“Did he tell you about that?,” Furness asks Pell.
Pell: “No he didn’t mention that to me.”
Furness: Monsignor O’Toole also gave evidence of having heard rumours about brother Fitzgerald taking boys out and going bike riding and the like and swimming in the nude. Did that come to your attention?
Pell replied it was “quite common knowledge”.
“Once upon a time, in the schools it was not uncommon at all.”
Updated
Furness is asking Pell about another Brother, Stephen Farrell, a Christian Brother at St Alpius Boys’ School in Ballarat East. He had allegations of sexual abuse made against him from six people, with the abuse allegedly occurring between 1971 and 1974, while Pell was an assistant priest.
In 1997, Farrell was convicted of nine counts of indecent assault against two boys aged nine and 10 at the school but his two-year prison sentence was wholly suspended.
He was convicted of a further charge of indecent assault against a 10-year-old boy, with his sentence suspended on appeal.
Furness: “Did you hear anything about Brother Farrel?”
Pell: “I don’t recall anything at all. I can’t remember Brother Farrell at all.”
Australia’s most senior Catholic, Cardinal George Pell, has maintained he knew nothing of the paedophile priests operating within the diocese of Ballarat while he was a junior priest there but has conceded the church’s handling of child sexual abuse was “catastrophic” for its victims.
On the first day of four days of evidence before Australia’s royal commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse, Pell said the Catholic church had made “enormous mistakes” in dealing with allegations of abuse.
“I’m not here to defend the indefensible, the church has made enormous mistakes and is working to remedy those, but the church has in many places, certainly in Australia, has mucked things up, has let people down. I’m not here to defend the indefensible.”
The full story about the first couple of hours evidence from reporter Ben Doherty can be found here.
Updated
Furness; “When did you first hear of Christian Brothers at Ballarat offending against children?”
Pell: “That’s a very good question. Perhaps in the early ‘70s I heard things about Dowlan.”
Last week the commission heard Brother Edward Dowlan “made little attempt to conceal his behaviour”. In a previous commission hearing about Ballarat held last year, the commission heard from a witness that he was raped by Dowlan.
In 2015, Dowlan was convicted of 16 counts of indecent assault against 11 boys at four different Christian Brothers’ schools and was sentenced to six years and six months in prison, with a four-year non-parole period.
Furness: “What did you hear about Dowlan?”
Pell: “I heard that there were problems at St Patrick’s College.”
Furness: “What sort of problems?”
Pell: “Unspecified, but harsh discipline and possibly other infractions also.”
Furness: “When you say possibly other infractions, you mean of a sexual nature?”
Pell: “I do.”
Furness: “Where did you hear that from?”
Pell: “Once again, it’s difficult to recall accurately.”
Pell says reporting abuse by Christian Brothers was not within his jurisdiction
Counsel assisting, Gail Furness, is renowned for being tough and thorough in her questioning. She is well respected by abuse survivors and her legal peers.
Furness puts it to Pell that, as an assistant priest, he could have done something with the rumours about Brother Fitzgerald acting inappropriately towards children.
Pell: “Well, I could have mentioned it to the principal or the parish priest, but I had no jurisdiction in any sense over the Christian Brothers.”
Furness: “But I take it from what you’ve said the principal and the parish priest were probably aware of it as well?”
Pell: “Yes I think that’s a reasonable assumption.”
Now Furness is turning her questioning to the Christian Brothers, and is focussing on Brothers who were abusing children while Pell served as assistant priest at Ballarat East.
A religious community within the Catholic church, the Christian Brothers primarily worked in educational facilities for children.
In all, 281 individual members of the Christian Brothers in Australia have been subject to one or more claims or substantiated complaints of child sexual abuse, the commission heard, with 45% of that abuse occurring in Tasmania or Victoria, the commission heard last week.
Furness is asking Pell about what he knew of Brother Gerald Leo Fitzgerald, who was forced to retire from teaching at St Alpius Boys’ School, with a report saying he had “reached that stage of life when, for some men, control of emotional impulses becomes lessened”.
He was allowed to continue to live within the St Patrick’s religious community, the commission heard. A separate report stated he went into the junior dormitory to “play with boys”. He died in 1987 and was never charged.
Pell says there was talk within the parish of Fitzgerald’s “eccentricity”.
“But there was no specific accusations,” Pell adds.
Furness: “What was it about the brother that showed him to be eccentric?”
Pell: “I think he used to-’s alleged when some of the boys were leaving he’d given them a kiss. He was very strange, old fashioned, but good teacher. There were things like that.”
Furness: “At the time did you see him as kissing the children as sexualised behaviour?”
Pell: “No, it was common knowledge and the general conviction was it was it was harmless enough.”
The commission hears that after Day, an abuser of children, became aware of an police investigation against him, he resigned from his position.
The Bishop of Ballarat, Ronald Mulkearns, had also received visits from numerous people who told him about Day’s abusing, Furness said.
Yet one year after Day resigned, he was appointed as a parish priest, Furness said.
Pell: “Um... In the light of what I know, now,and obviously our present basic and appropriate understandings, it’s quite unacceptable.”
Furness: “It’s unacceptable because it’s putting a priest who is subject of serious sexual allegations against children back into a parish, isn’t it?”
Pell: “That’s correct.”
Furness: “Did it come to your attention that that occurred?”
Pell: “Yes, I think I was aware of that.”
Furness refers Pell to a newspaper article published in 1972 about a police investigation about abuse within the Ballarat diocese. At this time, Pell was an assistant priest at Ballarat East.
Furness put it to Pell: “You had no doubt when you saw this article that it was about Day did you?”
Pell: “No, I had no doubts.”
Furness: “Was this is first occasion on which it came to your attention that a priest had been accused of sexual offences against children?”
Pell: “It’s difficult to answer that absolutely but it certainly would be one of the first and perhaps the first.”
Updated
An Australian journalist was struck in the stomach and a cameraman aggressively shoved by unidentified officials while waiting for Pell to arrive at the Hotel Quirinale.
Brett Mason, SBS Europe correspondent, told the Guardian’s Stephanie Kirchgaessner that he and a cameraman for Channel 9 were waiting across the street from the hotel in order to film the cardinal when a group of about six security officials rushed toward them and obstructed their view.
Their push was so aggressive that the camera held by cameraman Mark Brewer’s camera fell to the ground. “We haven’t made a complaint but we spoke to the commission,” Mason said, though he emphasised that he did not want the scuffle to deter attention from the commission meeting.
Brewer said he had “never seen anything like” the men’s hostile behaviour in 35 years’ of being a cameraman. A statement released by Cardinal Pell’s office said that the incident did not involve his security staff, and that the Italian Police and commission staff were investigating the incident.
Cardinal Pell statement denying his security were involved in "Rome scuffle" with media @australian #royalcommission pic.twitter.com/8DB1DPgUNf
— Dan Box (@DanBox10) February 28, 2016
Updated
There are a few technical difficulties occurring at the moment, with the connection dropping out now and then. This is one of the reasons chair of the commission, Justice McClellan, previously said he’d prefer Pell to give evidence in person in Australia.
When Pell last gave evidence to the commission via videolink, his evidence was plagued by technical difficulties, however the delays so far today have only been minor in comparison.
Updated
More from Guardian reporter Stephanie Kirchgaessner in Rome;
An abuse survivor, Andrew Collins, told me that he believed Pell has said some things in his testimony so far that survivors have wanted to hear, including his acknowledgement that mistakes were made and that the church’s handling of serial abuse was “catastrophic”.
But Collins also said he believed that Pell has not yet faced the very tough questioning survivors still anticipate that would get into the “nitty gritty” of what Pell did, and did not, know.
The toughest questions would come from solicitors working for survivors, he said, though he said he believed the solicitor asking questions now - Gail Furness - was tough.
“My solicitor said ‘you don’t fuck with her,’” he said with a chuckle. Collins was abused on four occasions by four different men, when he was 7, 11, 12, and 14-years-old. He was abused by a teacher, a priest and two different monks.
Updated
It seems many people around Pell knew of Day’s abusing children, but this news did not reach Pell.
Furness; “Now, Father Dan Torpy has given evidence in a private hearing that when he was an assistant priest at Mildura, he became aware that a group of Mildura parents had complained to Bishop [James] O’Collins about the activities of Day. Now, I think you’ve indicated you knew Father Torpy at this time?
Pell: “I did.”
Furness: “Did Father Torpy tell you any of what I have just read to you from his private hearing?”
Pell: “No, I’ve got no such recollection.”
Updated
Leonie Sheedy, who runs the Care Leavers Australia Network for survivors of abuse in orphanages and foster care, says she is growing frustrated by what she believes are non-responses by Pell to key questions.
“He is a master of not answering the questions,” she tells me.
Updated
Furness is now highlighting a letter of complaint about Day’s conduct which was sent to the Bishop of Ballarat, Ronald Mulkearns, who Pell worked with closely.
The letter says;
“We the authors of this letter wish to bring to your notice the behaviour of Monsignor Day the parish priest at Mildura. Apparently two months ago as the result of a complaint by a parent of one of the pupils at St Joseph’s College, investigations by both the undersigned revealed widespread moral misconduct over a period of 13 years.
Pell says just because the letter, signed by several people, had been sent to Mulkearns, the commission should not draw conclusions from it about how many people knew about the abuse.
Furness: “Well, with respect, Cardinal, there are a number of conclusions, I suggest to you, that can be drawn. Firstly, in relation to the seven people who are mentioned in that document as having been abused?”
Pell: “I certainly accept that.”
Furness: “And the conclusions that the authors drew of widespread moral misconduct over a period of 13years is an alarming conclusion, isn’t it?”
Pell: “Of course it’s alarming.”
The commission is hearing about John Howden, a teacher who tried to highlight Day’s abusing to the then Bishop of Ballarat, Ronald Mulkearns.
Furness: “It seemed by now, that is late January 1972, quite a few people seemed to know of or have suspicions of Monsignor Day’s conduct.”
Pell: “Especially people in and around Mildura.”
Furness: “Yes, but also people who you had contact with in Swan Hill? Isn’t that right?”
Pell: Not many at all. Those long distances mean that people from those different centres don’t get together too frequently.”
Questioning resumes
We’re off again and questioning is continuing about what Pell knew of the abusing of Monsignor John Day.
Pell is given a statement from Father Gerald Baldock in which Baldock says 1967 or 68, he started to hear innuendo about Monsignor Day having “a love for young boys and that he would take them on trips”.
Furness: “Did anyone else, to your recollection, tell you anything similar about Monsignor Day, that is, the love for young boys and taking them on trips?
Pell: “Are you mentioning any particular period or at any stage?”
Furness: “At any stage?”
Pell: “I hadn’t heard of the trips to mention. I don’t recall that.”
Furness: “But you’d heard the love for young boys?”
Pell: “Well, I was aware of ... general gossip. I very rarely indulged in any such discussions. The points were made to me. I would listen and say - but there wasn’t much discussion, certainly in our presbytery, or in any presbytery in which I lived, on these topics.
Furness: “But there clearly was in relation to Day. You’ve given evidence to that effect already, Cardinal?”
Pell: “I’ve given evidence that we were aware of the problem, that we talked about it, but it was not gossiped about extensively.”
Updated
Not everyone who was a victim of abuse within the Diocese of Ballarat could make it to Rome. A group of them have instead gathered together at the Ballarat Town Hall to watch the evidence unfold.
Murmurs and groans in the Ballarat Town Hall as survivors hear Cardinal Pell say he can't remember certain complaints about physical abuse
— Christie Cooper (@ChristieCooper7) February 28, 2016
"Trench Room" at Ballarat Town Hall where more than 60 people are listening to #Pell testimony from #royalcommission pic.twitter.com/YoqzwnAasI
— Konrad Marshall (@KonradMarshall) February 28, 2016
There's scoffing and chuckling here in Ballarat every time Cardinal Pell says something the crowd disagrees with @abcnewsMelb #CARoyalComm
— Danny Tran (@DANNYTRAN) February 28, 2016
Morning adjournment
The commission is taking a short break in the evidence.
To recap this morning, Cardinal George Pell has acknowledged that the way notorious pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale, was moved between parishes rather than reported to police was a “catastrophe” that allowed him to continue to abuse children. However, Pell has consistently denied knowing that Ridsdale was abusing children while he worked alongside him.
Pell has also acknowledged he heard rumours that Monsignor John Day was abusing children, but that in those days, the church was “strongly inclined” to accept denials of abuse by those accused of it.
Pell told the commission he knew “a wonderful woman in Mildura” who insisted that Day was innocent.
“And I remember being impressed by that,” Pell said.
Day is one of Australia’s worst pedophiles.
Pell also acknowledged there had been wrongdoing at the hands of the church.
“The church has made enormous mistakes, and it is working to remedy those. But the church in many places has mucked things up, has let people down. I’m not here to defend the indefensible.”
Too many claims of child sexual abuse were dismissed in “scandalous circumstances”.
“There were very very plausible allegations made by plausible people that were not followed up sufficiently. The instinct was more to protect the institution, the community of the church from shame.”
The church also excessively believed abusers could be cured through psychological help, Pell said. This was the case when it came to Ridsdale, who Pell said was given “chance after chance”.
The hearings will continue shortly. Pell will give evidence for about four hours per day over the next few days.
Updated
Another survivor of child sexual abuse in Ballarat is Stephen Woods. He’s in the room with Pell and is tweeting his observations here.
This could be explosive https://t.co/bjA8GgjDvZ
— Stephen. T. Woods (@SpoomsT) February 28, 2016
Furness is now taking Pell through a list of religious figures within the Diocese of Ballarat who were abusing children while Pell served there, and whether he knew of their abusing or rumours of their abusing.
“I must say in those days, if a priest denied such activity, I was very strongly inclined to accept the denial,” Pell says.
“I – this is over 40 years ago. I have had almost no close connection with [abuser Monsignor John] Day. I can’t remember exactly what I heard when.”
Furness: “Now, I appreciate the period of time that’s passed, Cardinal, but it’s quite a remarkable thing to have heard about a fellow priest in 1971, isn’t it?
Pell: “It was a great – a great scandal.”
Updated
Abuse survivor, David Ridsdale, has been in contact with me. He is at the Hotel Quirinale watching the evidence unfold. David Ridsdale was a victim of Gerald Ridsdale, his uncle. During a previous commission hearing, David Ridsdale told the commission that he told Pell he was being abused, and that Pell responded by encouraging him to keep quiet.
Pell has denied ever knowing that Gerald Ridsdale was abusing children while he worked with him at Ballarat.
David Ridsdale tells me;
I am 10 metres away from Cardinal George Pell. As are the Fosters [Anthony and Chrissie Foster, whose daughters Emma and Katie suffered sexual abuse at the hands of a priest over several years].
The majority here in the room are the world’s media. The room is packed. Survivors are together and respectful as usual. We came in through the back door, with full security, which was interesting.
Updated
A catastrophe for the church
The topic has now turned to notorious pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale, who abused children for two decades. He was allowed to continue abusing, the commission has previously heard, because instead of going to police, senior religious officials simply moved him between parishes. However, Pell has said he did not know Ridsdale was abusing at the time.
A few of Ridsdales victims are in Rome to watch Pell give his evidence. Pell told the commission:
I have just re-read the file of Ridsdale. The priest. Ex-priest. And the way he was dealt with was a catastrophe. A catastrophe for the victims and a catastrophe for the church. If effective action had been taken earlier, an enormous amount of suffering would’ve been avoided.
He – he was given chance after chance after chance, shifted him around and initially at least, trusted excessively in the possible benefits of psychological help.
Updated
Chair of the commission, Justice Peter McClellan, appears to have grown frustrated with Pell. Furness had been asking Pell if he was aware of any priests or religious figures being sent away for treatment for their abusing of children.
Pell told Furness: “If a priest is engaging in sexual behaviour, either heterosexually or homosexually, that’s incompatible with his continuing as a priest and it’s possible that people were sent off – once again, I’d have to hear who [was sent off] to reply specifically.”
McClellan interjected: “All that counsel is asking you for are the names of any priests you can remember who were sent off for treatment. What is your recollection? What do you recall?”
Pell is pressed on whether he was aware Father Paul David Ryan was sent off for treatment.
“I’m not sure that Ryan was – I’m not well versed on Ryan. I didn’t have much to do with his story,” Pell replies.
Updated
From reporter Stephanie Kirchgaessner:
Just a point on the issue of the church teaching that was raised. The Guardian reported the story a few weeks ago.
It was followed by a statement by the Vatican commission examining church policy on abuse, which said it was a matter of moral responsibility to report abuse to authorities, whether it was legally required or not.
But the Vatican’s official policy, as Pell stated it, is that the church needs to follow “the law of the land”. It bears remembering that not all countries compel clergy to report suspected cases of sexual abuse to civil authorities. Would have been good to have a follow-up from Furness on that question.
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Abuse complaints were not followed-up sufficiently, Pell says
Furness puts it to Pell that the general attitude of the church to disclosures of child sexual abuse in the 1980s and earlier was “generally to not believe the child”.
“Do you accept that?,” she asks Pell.
Pell: “I think that ... I would now say that that is an over-statement but it certainly was much, much more difficult for the child to be believed then. The predisposition was not to believe.
Furness: “And the predisposition was also to be dismissive of those complaints?”
Pell: “If they were not presented clearly. But it would vary from person to person and there was never any suggestion that these accusations should be rejected out of hand.”
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More from Stephanie Kirchgaessner, the Guardian’s Rome correspondent:
The Verdi Room looks like an average banquet room, with three large golden chandeliers hanging from the ceiling and mint green tapestry hanging from panels around the room.
There are about 12 rows of seats, 12 seats wide, and an aisle midway through. The survivors - about 15 of them, along with some support - are sitting near the front but on the opposite side of Pell.
There are also priests here and journalists are filling the seats near the back of the room. All eyes are fixed on Pell and the big screen in front of us, where we can see the proceedings and questioning from Australia.
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Furness asks Pell about complaints about “problems” within the schools.
Pell: “Well, it’s a long time ago but I can’t remember such complaints and normally they would have been addressed to the education office not to the vicar. I can’t remember any such examples but my memory might be playing me false.”
Furness: “Why might your memory be playing you false?”
Pell: “Because I don’t have perfect recall.”
Furness: “So it may have happened but you can’t remember now. That is the effect of what you’re saying?”
Pell: “No, I think you’re putting words into my mouth. I don’t remember any such thing happening and therefore I don’t believe it did, but my memory is sometimes fallible.”
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The commission is now hearing about Pell’s history in Ballarat. He was born in Ballarat, the commission hears, and and educated at St Patrick’s College. He was good at sport, and his family was quite well known in Ballarat because they ran a local hotel.
Furness suggested Pell was identified early on as a prospective leader of the church. He went on to study in Rome.
He then returned to Ballarat and held various positions including as an assistant priest. He took an interest in child education, obtained a master’s in education in the early 1980s. His first education position in Ballarat was as episcopal vicar for education in 1973.
Furness: “You also, as I understand it, described the role as the essential link between the bishop, priests, parents, teachers and students. That’s how you saw the role, isn’t it?”
Pell: “I would be interested to see where I said that. I think it somewhat overstates my role. I was not the director of education.”
Furness points Pell to a document written by Pell in September 1984, where he describes his role as an “essential link between bishop, priest, parents, teachers and students”.
Pell replies: “Yes, I do see what is there.”
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Pell says he is 'not here to defend the indefensible'
Furness is questioning him about the responses of the church to child sexual abuse.
Pell interrupts: “Let me just say this, as an initial clarification, and that is I’m not here to defend the indefensible. The church has made enormous mistakes and is working to remedy those but the church in many places, certainly in Australia, has mucked things up, has let people down. I’m not here to defend the indefensible.”
Furness replies: “I wasn’t particularly asking you to, Cardinal.”
Pell: “Thank you.”
Furness: “The question is in relation to the consistency of findings of inquiries in many places in the world in relation to the actions of senior officials in the Catholic Church. Now you’ve said that that is the case, that there has been a consistency of findings in relation to the response of the church?”
Pell: Unfortunately, there’s a lot of truth [to that]. I would also say there are very few countries in the world who have advanced as far as the Catholic Church has in Australia in putting procedures into place nearly 20 years ago. I think that’s a matter of record.”
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Cardinal Pell begins giving evidence
The commission has begun with Pell clarifying his position within the Vatican.
This exchange occurred between Pell and counsel assisting, Gail Furness:
Furness: What is your function as prefect of the secretariat, Cardinal?
Pell: Something equivalent to a Treasurer.
Furness: So the treasurer for the Vatican? Is that right?
Pell: Yes, for the Holy See.
Furness: And is it the case that you have a delegation of some sort to be able to expend funds on behalf of the Vatican or is your remit unlimited?
Pell: My remit is certainly not unlimited. I answer to the council for the economy, an international body of 15 head cardinals and seven lay people. They are something like the university Senate to whom I must answer.
Furness: Now, Cardinal, you’re often described as the number three person in the Vatican. Is that accurate?
Pell: I wouldn’t say it was. People like to make these hypothetical lists. Some people would see the financial affairs of the Vatican as very low on the list.
Furness: How would you describe yourself, Cardinal?
Pell: I wouldn’t get into that game at all. I’m a senior official in the Roman [hierarchy].
Furness: You said some would see the financial affairs of the Vatican as very low, I take it you don’t share that view?
Pell: I think it’s very important that church money is used efficiently, that the donations are used for the running of the church and for the helping of the core, that they’re not wasted.
Pell swears to tell the truth pic.twitter.com/TfZBNTofHd
— Melissa Davey (@MelissaLDavey) February 28, 2016
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Stephanie Kirchgaessner, the Guardian’s Rome correspondent reports;
“The Verdi Room at the Hotel Quirinale is almost full – not packed – with journalists, survivors and their supporters, and quite a few priests – and Pell, looking rather sullen, is about to start testifying.
One of the possibly unintended consequences of Pell’s decision to stay here in Rome and testify is that it has brought Rome’s expert Vaticanisti – journalists who closely cover the Roman Catholic Church – out in full force.
Among the survivors is one in a green shirt – he declined to be interviewed by the Guardian because we are not technically allowed to interview survivors inside the Verdi Room – and on the shirt is a picture of young boy, presumably a picture taken at the time that he was being abused. It is a striking image.”
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Waiting for Cardinal George Pell.
On this stormy night in Rome, waiting for #CardinalPell pic.twitter.com/HbuWI6RpMe
— Steph Kirchgaessner (@skirchy) February 28, 2016
Pell’s sister, Margaret Pell, is in Rome to support her brother.
She spoke to reporters briefly a few hours ago. Asked what Pell was doing, she replied: “He’s resting today, preparing for tonight. He’s praying”.
Asked how he was feeling, she replied: “Well how would you feel?”
Tensions are running high.
According to News Ltd: An Australian TV crew has formally complained to the royal commission as their cameraman was “crash tackled” by security detail as he attempted to film Cardinal George Pell’s backdoor entrance to the hearings.
Shortly after 7pm local time, Cardinal Pell and his entourage were still debating whether to arrive at the front of Hotel Quirinale or the back gardens entrance before electing on the latter.
A security detail of plain clothed police and others were dispatched to the back gates of the hotel’s gardens but were surprised to see a cameraman from SBS Australia there while most of the world press were out front.
Italian Police reviewing Aus TV vision after Pell's heavies strong arm media outside #royalcommission in Rome. pic.twitter.com/ObHOq1uWdd
— Hugh Whitfeld (@hughwhitfeld) February 28, 2016
It’s about 15 minutes now until Pell’s evidence is due to begin. If you have any questions throughout, tweet me @MelissaLDavey and I’ll do my best to answer. You can also follow reporter Stephanie Kirchgaessner who is in Rome and at the hearing.
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Stephanie Kirchgaessner has alerted me to this piece by veteran Vatican-watcher, John Allen;
It’s undoubtedly an exaggeration to suggest that the entire nation of Australia will come grinding to a halt next Monday at 8 a.m. local time, when Cardinal George Pell is set to begin giving live video testimony before a Royal Commission examining child sexual abuse scandals.
Still, it sort of feels like that here right now.
Read the full piece here.
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Reporter Stephanie Kirchgaessner with an observation from Rome:
I think interesting is the difference in the perception of Pell in Australia vs here in Rome, where he is seen as a victim of a witch hunt and viewed quite sympathetically even by critics of the church.
Stephanie interviewed abuse survivor Paul Levey. You can read her piece here.
Paul Levey is one of the abuse survivors from Ballarat now in Rome to watch Pell give his evidence. pic.twitter.com/9u7omIKwD4
— Melissa Davey (@MelissaLDavey) February 28, 2016
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Here is a piece from David Marr about the questions George Pell must answer over the next few days.
An excerpt:
Cardinal George Pell is bold. Priests have told the royal commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse over and over again that they knew something was going on back then and now regret doing little more than passing the awful news up the line.
They left it to others.
That’s not Pell’s position. He says he knew nothing – nothing while he was a priest in Ballarat about the paedophiles around him and little about these men and their victims in his years as an auxiliary bishop in Melbourne.
He was never in the loop. No one warned him. No one complained to him. He didn’t read that letter or this report. It never came up at meetings. There’s nothing in the minutes. There’s nothing in the files. According to the cardinal, he rose through the ranks in a state of nearly perfect ignorance while – as he now acknowledges with remorse – systematic cover-ups allowed paedophile priests to prey on innocent children.
Read Marr’s full piece here.
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Why this appearance by Pell is important
As we wait for the commission to begin, some background about why this appearance by Pell is so pivotal.
Pell has given evidence before the commission twice before. The questions asked of him related to the archdiocese of Melbourne and the way the Catholic church handled and investigated allegations of child sexual abuse via its internal scheme, known as the Melbourne Response. The first time Pell gave his evidence in person, and the second time, in 2015, via videolink, in an appearance plagued by technical difficulties.
This time, things are much different.
Abuse survivor Robert House in Ballarat with a painting by his friend and supporter, James Money. pic.twitter.com/u7AVWYAAyU
— Melissa Davey (@MelissaLDavey) February 28, 2016
A lot more has emerged throughout commission hearings since Pell last appeared and he now has a lot more to answer than just how the archdiocese of Melbourne responded to and investigated allegations of child sexual abuse within its institutions during the period he served as auxiliary bishop.
The previous two Ballarat-focused hearings of the royal commission heard evidence that while he was an assistant priest at Ballarat East from 1973 to 1983, Pell allegedly was involved in moving a notorious pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale, between parishes. Pell also worked at the parish during a period when several Catholic priests were later found to have assaulted young boys, the commission heard, raising questions about how, given his senior position, he could not have known. For a time, he lived with Ridsdale.
Ridsdale was not an occasional abuser. This excellent piece by Debi Marshall, published for SBS News, gives a horrific insight into the abuse of children that occurred under Ridsdale’s care.
One of Ridsdale’s victims was his nephew David Ridsdale, who gave evidence at the first of the commission’s Ballarat hearings. He alleged that he told Pell about the abuse he had endured, but Pell encouraged him to keep quiet. Pell has strongly denied the allegations. He has also said he was unaware of abuse occurring within the diocese until after he left.
These allegations and incidents will no doubt be brought up by the royal commission led by Justice Peter McClellan throughout Pell’s hearing, which is expected to go across four days.
What is unlikely to be brought up by the commission is allegations leaked by Victoria police to the media that Pell is himself under investigation for allegations of grooming and molesting children. Pell has vehemently denied the allegations. It is important to know that a royal commission does not have prosecutor powers, or the ability to compel people overseas to give evidence. It can refer matters it believes warrants it to police and at its close provides a comprehensive list of recommendations to governments and institutions to ensure errors of the past are prevented from happening again.
Some more extensive background about the allegations, and the importance of Ballarat, can be found here.
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Welcome to the Guardian’s live coverage of Cardinal George Pell’s evidence before Australia’s royal commission into institutional responses into child sexual abuse.
Melissa Davey is with you and I’ll be watching the evidence closely and reporting on key moments throughout the day. We’ll also have David Marr providing analysis, reporting from Ben Doherty in Sydney where the royal commission hearing is being held and reporting from Stephanie Kirchgaessner in Rome, who is with a small group of child sexual abuse survivors who travelled from Australia to watch Pell give evidence in person from the Hotel Quirinale.
The royal commission into institutional responses into child sexual abuse, tasked by the Australian federal government in 2013 to take on the massive job of independently investigating child sexual abuse within churches, foster care organisations, sporting clubs and a range of other institutions throughout Australia, will today once again turn its attention to the diocese of Ballarat and to the archdiocese of Melbourne. More about those case studies in posts to come.
So why is Pell giving evidence from Rome?
Back in May, after new evidence emerged, Pell said he would be willing to fly to Australia to give evidence in person once again. But, days before he was due before the commission in December, his lawyers tendered medical documents to the commission saying he was too unwell to fly. The commission waited until February to see if Pell would have recovered enough to fly, but his lawyers again tendered documents that said he was not. The commission subsequently said he could give evidence via videolink from Rome.
I'm in Ballarat for the #CARoyalCommission, day 1 of part three of the hearings. pic.twitter.com/nHswe1qI8l
— Melissa Davey (@MelissaLDavey) February 21, 2016
The decision prompted a gofundme campaign to send survivors and a support network of psychologists and counsellors to Rome, with more than $200,000 raised in days. Comedian Tim Minchin also released a song calling on Pell to come home and drawing attention to the campaign.
You can tweet your thoughts throughout the morning to me @MelissaLDavey.
Stay with us.
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