As everyone knows, For The Win is a Famously Serious Sports Blog with a sterling reputation for hard-hitting reporting and innovative storytelling.
This proved true once again Thursday during an informal staff discussion that was supposed to be about Travis Kelce’s mortifying lack of rizz, but quickly turned into a passionate debate (read: fight) about fame, global relevance and whether Michael Jordan would be mobbed in Portugal.
Editor’s note: The following has been lightly edited for clarity but NOT grammar. Though we’re all technically “professional writers,” we use Slack to communicate as a team and are not beholden to the world’s arbitrary rules about “spelling” and “putting apostrophes where they belong.”
Grow up.
Part 1: What determines someone's level of fame?
Charles Curtis (deputy managing editor):
alex is so mad about this
I love it
Alex McDaniel (managing editor):
LISTEN
Caroline Darney (managing editor, BetFTW and pop culture):
SHE [Taylor Swift] IS THE MOST FAMOUS WOMAN IN THE WORLD
Alex:
ALL I’M SAYING IS YOU’D THINK HE’D [Travis Kelce] HAVE SOMETHING SMOOTH AND/OR CHARMING AND/OR NOT AWFUL
Meghan Hall (staff writer):
Beyonce is the most famous, imo. But Swift is right behind her.
Blake (assistant managing editor, BetFTW):
Taylor doesn’t have single name status, this is true
like if someone said to you “omg did you see what Taylor did?” your first question is “which taylor?”
Caroline:
your first question is “which taylor????” WHAT OTHER TAYLOR COULD THEY BE TALKING ABOUT
Meghan:
It would be mine. I’m with Blake.
Caroline:
lol
Meghan:
Taylor Lautner????
Blake:
i would expect her fans to refer to her by one name. the general public?
Caroline:
i’m still stuck that lautner is in the same universe in expecting discussion about them right now
Meghan:
I mean….Do you think of any other person named Beyonce?
Caroline:
i’ve never heard of another one, but that’s not really the discussion i guess
Meghan:
I sound like one of her stans, but I promise I’m not.
Caroline:
taylor is for sure a more common name, but if someone right now in this day and age says taylor xyz i’m 1000% assuming its about swift
Meghan:
Are we in Slack law territory here?
Editor’s note: “Slack law” is a term we use at FTW. Basically, if the staff ends up carrying on a conversation beyond a minute or so, it’s probably worth making into content. Hence why we’re here.
Blake:
Singular Pantheon (and this is not saying that they are equal, just that if you use one name, people generally know who you are talking about):
Beyonce
Oprah
Brady
Prince
Caroline:
brady????
Blake:
Jordan
Caroline:
i feel like i’m taking crazy pills
Meghan:
Brady, Blake??? What?
Meghan:
I mean the Global list is Beyonce, Taylor Swift, LeBron, Michael Jordan, Messi, Beckham, etc.
Blake:
Leo
Caroline:
she said messi
leo is also dicaprio imo
Blake:
both of them
Caroline:
but also i feel like we’re having two separate discussions…first names here.
Alex (attempting to steer the convo back to Kelce’s horrific pickup attempt): i think my thing is i’m just amazed he wouldn’t have something better for her. if my boyfriend, who is not travis kelce, used that on me i would have dropped him so fast because i’m not on this earth to be embarrassed
Caroline:
like michael and tom are not cutting it
LMAO ALEX
because i’m not on this earth to be embarrassed
Blake:
great memoir title
Part 2: Is Michael Jordan THAT famous?
Robert Zeglinski (staff writer):
whoa whoa whoa wait, it’s jordan and he’s one of the most famous people ever
absolutely makes the cut
Caroline:
FIRST NAMES ROBERT
Blake:
HES GOT TWO FIRST NAMES
Prince Grimes (senior writer, BetFTW):
the first problem with this convo is the taylor-kelce relationship is 100% fake
Charles:
oho prince
Caroline:
hahaha prince
Robert:
jordan was so famous he took MJ from MJ
I would argue MJ is first name
Caroline:
whoaaaa whoa robert
Robert:
anyway
Blake:
points were made
Caroline:
michael jordan is not more popular than michael jackson worldwide
Blake:
he….might be?
Caroline:
you guys are wild
Robert:
I would argue he is probably the most famous athlete in history
Caroline:
WHAT
Blake:
thats not even a debate
Caroline:
in world wide athlete history
Cory Woodroof (FTW writer who often tries to have thoughtful conversations while we’re busy being idiots): Michael Jackson might have a bit more notoriety than Michael Jordan globally, but that’s probably skewed for Jackson’s legal issues
Cory:
being infamous and famous both track
Meghan:
In no realm is Michael Jordan bigger than Michael Jackson. Stop this.
Caroline:
MEGHAN THANK YOU
Robert:
Jordan dominated the world’s second most popular sport, took it global, and has probably the most popular shoe brand ever
definitely most famous athlete ever
Caroline:
except for the MOST famous sport worldwide that millions more people follow than basketball
Blake:
beyond being a basketball star, he’s a fashion icon
Cory:
it’s harder for athletes to retain multi-generational fame
Blake:
even if you don’t know about his basketball career, you’ve probably seen his shoes or his logo
Cory:
Michael Jackson was the world’s biggest pop icon and then had one of the biggest legal cases of all time
Jordan will always be one of the more notable athletes, but Jackson just crosses so many different barometers of recognition
Caroline:
billie jean has 1.5 BILLION listens on spotify
Alex:
i will say i think nike and gatorade did make jordan globally popular even in places where basketball wasn’t popular
Blake:
Michael Jordan was the world’s biggest athlete
Caroline:
jordan isn’t even the unanimous best basketball player
Cory:
At the very least, Jordan > Jackson in a person-to-person comparison
Robert:
it’s not about being unanimous best
Meghan:
We’re talking people – regardless of profession – Jackson > Jordan.
Robert:
guarantee more people know jordan than lebron, kobe, etc
Meghan:
I think you underestimate LeBron’s reach.
Prince:
i might argue jordan too
Robert:
and anecdotally, I don’t even really like Jordan, but I have never heard “MJ” and thought “Jackson”
Blake:
same
Cory:
Oh the acronym MJ is Jackson’s
Meghan:
What??? Never thought Jackson?!
Blake:
Disclaimer: Robert and I both grew up in Chicago
Meghan:
He was MJ before Jordan was MJ. What are we saying????
Robert:
even with my city bias, I don’t think what i’m saying is that crazy!
Cory:
I think in this day and age, branding keeps Michael Jordan relevant more than his athletic career
Blake:
yep
Caroline:
yeah y’all are far too chicago for this discussion
growing up overseas…mj is jackson
Part 3: We lose the plot
Nick Schwartz (editorial director, USA TODAY Sports Media Group, a.k.a., our boss):
soccer players are way more famous than michael jordan period
Caroline:
^^^^
Cory (still putting up with us bozos): Jackson will never have the same cultural prominence because of the problematic nature of engaging with his art now, so Jordan could take the lead eventually as future generations don’t listen to Jackson’s music because he’s not played as much
Jordan’s Nike brand will never go anywhere
Mike D. Sykes, II (associate editor, newsletters; resident sneaker expert):
Michael Jackson is probably more popular than Michael Jordan but y’all are totally underselling Michael Jordan here and it’s kinda wild
Prince:
yeah this thing is a lot closer lol
Sykes:
None of the other stars y’all named could sell a clothing line of any sort as well as Jordan has. Not one.
Blake:
I’m being swayed a bit. I think it’s close, but still give the edge to Jordan
Alex:
branding and endorsements are still a big deal now, obviously, but IN THE 80S AND 90S THAT WAS THE KEY TO DOMINATION
Nick:
like messi and ronaldo alone have probably twice the global reach jordan ever had
Sykes:
That’s just not true lol
Robert:
that’s definitely not true
Blake:
Which is also a direct result of Jordan’s off-court success, but I digress
Andrew Joseph (senior writer; resident soccer enthusiast):
Messi >>>>> Jordan
like it’s not even close
Sykes:
Iight y’all got it lol
Cory:
I do think Jackson’s fall from grace is going to impact how many people know about him in the long term — Jordan’s going to live eternal through his brands
Caroline:
messi has 487 MILLION followers on IG
Meghan:
Messi over Jordan?! What????
Cory:
So long-term, it really may be Jordan > Jackson for fame level
Andrew:
in terms of global fame? Messi by a mile
Robert:
cory is just over here trying to have a thoughtful discussion about the OTHER MJ meanwhile everything else is “what??? NO!” lmao
Nick:
you’ve got to keep in mind the evolution of broadcasting and highlights and stuff. there are entire continents of people who have probably only ever seen a clip or two of michael jordan
Blake:
What were they doing during the pandemic if not watching the last dance?
Andrew:
watching Messi videos
Caroline:
lots of other things
Nick:
doing dumb tik toks
Sykes:
Yeah but they’ve all seen his sneakers lol
Nick:
or whatever kids do
Sykes:
Dumb tiktoks with Jordans on
Andrew:
I don’t think Americans realize how famous Messi and Ronaldo are outside of the US
and they’re super famous IN the US
Blake:
That’s what im saying, sykes. even if you know nothing about his game, what he’s done in the fashion world is arguably just as impressive
Sykes:
Not sure if Americans do but I do lol
Nick:
messi is already as famous in america as jordan was PLUS he’s got the rest of the world
Sykes:
Michael Jordan is a literal American brand at this point
Caroline:
to take it back though, if you say michael, you have to ask which one lol
Andrew:
Messi can’t even walk outside
Michael Jordan can
Caroline:
the ceiling is the roof on this convo imo
Blake:
Jordan cannot
Sykes:
Lmao walking outside is the measurement?
Blake:
thats why you never see him
Andrew:
he’s at hornets games sitting courtside
Sykes:
Didn’t we just see Messi at a grocery store minding his business?
Alex:
AT PUBLIX
Sykes:
Super chill
Alex:
buying cereal
Sykes:
In FLIP FLOPS lmao
Blake:
No one even stopped to tell him about the chicken!
Andrew:
and then he got mobbed and never left his home again in Miami. He underestimated his fame in the US
Robert:
MJ would also be mobbed if he just walked around like a normal person with regular ass bills
Andrew:
Michael Jordan can walk around … lets say .. Lisbon totally unbothered
Robert:
I don’t think that’s true
Blake:
LISBON!?
THAT’S THE BAR!?
Robert:
people know his face
Nick:
i always say lisbon is the barometer
Alex:
ah yes, the lisbon test
Andrew:
chose the first european city that came to mind
Caroline:
hahahahaha
Cory (STILL trying to have a sincere conversation about fame and culture while the rest of us intentionally derail this entire thing): I think fame is a wave that ebbs and flows between moments in pop culture — it’s hard to maintain it past a certain point because the generational tide washes most everything away unless it’s timeless — Jackson and Jordan are both timeless for different reasons, but one of them is going to have a harder time seeing their legacies last because, right or wrong, it’s tainted. Jordan is preserved his legacy through iconography in branding. All athletes will fade in recognition for their peak, though — Jordan, Messi, etc., because art has more of a lasting impact. However, I’m not sure in a post-MeToo society how artists with tainted legacies will still be able to hold on to the unending zeitgeist. At the end of the day, whether Jackson, Jordan or Messi being the most famous pales in comparison to what fame even means now. It’s going to leave everyone eventually, as time intends.
Sykes:
Lmao Cory please
Robert:
cory come on lmao
Nick:
cory is writing tom rinaldi monologues over here
Robert:
one could even say crying jordan might be a top-5 meme ever
charles:
this convo has officially gone off the rails
Robert:
so he dominates basketball, fashion, and online
Caroline:
i am CACKLING
Michelle Martinelli (senior editor):
what is happening in here
Charles:
michelle rn
Alex:
we’re fighting just to fight
Prince:
who wants to do the listicle of most famous athletes and get yelled at by angry people on facebook
Caroline:
i am in tears laughing
Blake:
Cory, I promise Ill read that all once i catch my breath from lisbon
Alex:
did they show space jam in lisbon
Christian D’Andrea (NFL lead writer):
100+ new messages. what the [expletive], did the president die
Michelle:
mj cannot go anywhere on this planet unbothered except maybe the most remote places
Andrew:
Michael Jordan has never won the Champions League
end argument
Charles:
BAHAHAH
Caroline:
HAHGOJTOIRJGOEIRJGER’G
Alex:
messi never played for the birmingham barons
Charles:
crying rn
Caroline:
did messi try his hand at baseball
Andrew:
Tim Tebow played double-A baseball
even made it to triple-A
Cory:
None of these athletes helped the Looney Tunes save the planet and rescue multiple great 90s NBA players’ talents from intergalactic corporate greed in a game of basketball so I think that settles it
