On Thursday the so-called big guns were brought out to make the case for the remain campaign: Jeremy Corbyn spoke at the Institute of Engineering and Technology in London in the morning and David Cameron will appear in a televised debate in the evening.
We’ve been looking at some of the most interesting conversations you’re having around our EU referendum coverage on Thursday. Along with Corbyn’s speech focusing on protecting workers rights, we looked at the future of wildlife and of British emigrants living in Europe. You can read about the conversations here and click on the links at the end of each point to get involved, or head over to our EU referendum live blog to follow the news and discussion as it happens.
1. Cameron and Corbyn make case for remain – separately
So yet another unlikely cross-party collaboration coordinated by the Stronger In campaign wasn’t to be. We had pondered what influence Alistair Darling’s budding relationship with George Osborne may have on the debate, but in the words of Andrew Sparrow “there was no way the Labour leader could never share a platform because, in relation to their views on the EU, there is virtually no overlap at all”.
Here, among your first thoughts on Corbyn’s words, was the case for putting aside party differences and, probably a bit late for the speechwriters this morning, that for Labour values. Many of you were just glad he’s in the debate at all.
In a very real sense the question of staying within the EU or not is far bigger than the difference between the Tories and Labour. That Corbyn seems to have failed to distinguish the difference troubles me. The closest analogy I can find is giving priority to an allotment over that of a two hundred acre farm.
Labour needs to make the argument based on social and workers' rights which will be demolished if Britain exits the European Union. The protections of the ECHR, too, is to valuable to lose with a British bill of rights making UK citizens more subservient to the state.
In general, though, the key issue that got you talking was Corbyn’s view on immigration, particularly the quote “it is not migrants who undercut wages but unscrupulous employers”. You were also interested in his opposition to to TTIP “as it stands”.
Here are some more of your thoughts on what he said:
This is a major and decisive intervention by Corbyn. He's put to flight the lies of Ukippers and Leavers who claim he is really anti-EU. It's straight down the line from Jeremy, no if's or but's. No confusion about Labour's position. We are In and Staying In. I for one benefited from the 28 days holiday which came in across the EU. Before that I had 20 days. Remember that Cameron went into the negotiations looking to water down workers' rights, but failed to get that. If we voted to leave the bonfire of workers' rights would be the first item on the Tory agenda and it would be Tories led by the ultra right Gove, IDS, Fox and Johnson.
Well done, Corbyn, you have risen in my estimation.
All reasonable, rational stuff from Corbyn, as usual. I'm sure there will still be plenty on here calling him a hard-left extremist for wanting to protect workers rights, the environment and human rights.
He's absolutely right to disassociate himself from Cameron, Osborne and the Tories' toxic campaign to remain in. Remain needs to put forward the positive, progressive case for the EU, and that's far more likely with Corbyn, Lucas, Farron et al, than Osborne and Cameron scaremongering over everything from jobs to house prices. Also, nice few digs from Corbyn at the Tories, placing them on the backfoot over TTIP, workers rights and the recession. Nice one, JC.
"Corbyn says it is not migrants who undercut wages but unscrupulous employers." What a load of garbage. That's not how wages work. Wages are set by supply and demand. If there's a huge increase in supply of unskilled workers obviously this will put pressure on wages for unskilled work. You can't expect all businesses or households employing plumbers, builders, cleaners etc. to say the going rate for a builder is 10 an hour but I'm going to pay more because I'm nice. It's just not realistic.
A balanced and reasonable account of his views from Corbyn - I might not agree with everything but thank God for someone who is not engaging in lies and scaremongering but is treating the electorate with respect. In other words anathema to those in the press who only want dog-whistle, headline grabbing pronouncements. Whichever side of the argument you're on the only real loser in this increasingly nasty and travesty of a debate is Reason.
And back we come to cross-party platform sharing, with some division among you.
Jeremy just showed naive politicians like Khan how to make a case without supporting the Tories.
Not good enough. Cowering in the shadows and popping out to say very specific things about just one part of EU legislation is not the way the Labour leader should behave. Nor is a convenient refusal to share a Remain platform with some others.
Corbyn has shown himself to be a root and branch backbencher, incapable of leadership just when it is needed most to prevent the prospect of Brexit.
2. Brexit vote could affect Brits’ right to live in Spain, says Spanish PM
When we asked for your views on some of the EU referendum topics you’d like the Guardian to focus on more we heard about the issues facing Brits abroad.
As if by magic, the Spanish PM said Brexit and the potential loss of free movement rights would, “above all … be very negative for British citizens”. Some of you read more into it than others, though perhaps Merkel’s intervention today is more significant?
British expats could forfeit their rights to live in Spain
Could.....
Is this one of those 30 second, off the cuff soundbites that Cameron is so famous for that get withdrawn 48 hours later. Is he really saying that the beleaguered Spanish economy does not want the pensions of upwards of 2 million Brits spending in Spain? That they would boot the Brits out adding even more distress, if that were possible, to the Spanish property market.
My guess is this comment has more to do with the Spanish General Election on 16th June than the EU after which he could find himself unemployed.
I like the concept of the aging British economic migrants "selling up" in Spain! There is an oversupply of housing there, and their houses are usually in places that offer little or no employment... other than catering for the British migrant estates. If they return it is likely to be with an unsold property in Spain, and expecting to be housed at public expense. Quite ironic when you think some of them will have used the sale of 'right to buy' cheap council houses to fund their move to economic living in the sun.
I am a British expat in Spain.
In Spain, in order to become a "Resident" you have to prove you can financially support yourself - that means either having a job that provides a suitable liveable wage, or show evidence of savings in a bank account. Obviously a UK pension counts as a liveable income.
You also have to prove you have suitable health care. If you are employed in Spain then you automatically get access to the Spanish NHS as you are paying into their social security system. If you are over pensionable age then you are entitled to use the Spanish NHS because they can then claim the cost of your treatment back from the UK government.
Foreigners and non-residents do not get access to benefits in Spain.
This myth that British expats are a drain on the Spanish economy is just that - a myth. If you are not a tourist then you have to prove you have an income in order to be a resident. Generally that means an income from the UK which is then spent in the Spanish economy.
#ProjectFear
There is the serious matter of how figures are massaged to suit the needs of each side, and many more of you are getting stuck into the media’s reporting of so-called project fear.
Expats aren't denied the right to vote - only those who left more than 15 years ago - which seems fair enough, they should have obtained local citizenship during those 15 years.
Spain could deny them permanent residency, just as the UK could for the millions of EU citizens living in the UK. Neither will happen. #project fear
When suggesting that British expats in Spain ara a 'cash cow' for the economy, it's worth reminding that the official fiscal residency figures for British residents in Spain - just over 300,000 - differ greatly from the estimates of Brit 'non-doms' in Spain i.e. British expats in Spain who claim to reside, for tax purposes, in the UK yet - curiously - spend a lot more than the 183 annual days a year in Spain (estimates of these non-dom Brits range between 600,000 and 800,000).
These non-doms use Spanish infrastructure, healthcare and services, and might contribute via their consumption in Spain to the Spanish economy (i.e. VAT, and indirectly if they employ tradesment etc.), but in terms of the major fiscal contributions - income taxes, capital gains, social security, taxes on their buy-to-let properties in the UK, etc. - they are contributing to Westminster, not Madrid.
I'd imagine that in the case of Brexit, there will be added vigilance in Spain on the hundreds of thousands of Brits who claim to live in the UK fiscally, yet live in Spain for substantially more than their claimed 183 days.
The point is that as EU citizens, the ex-pats have a legal RIGHT to live in Spain, if they decide they want to. After a Brexit, this legal right is _gone_, and Spain could most definitely deny them permanent residence if they want to. Also, free access to healthcare will most definitely be denied by then.
And just for the record: For a country which is decrying the "democratic deficit" of EU institutions, it _boggles my mind_ that British expats, who are very directly affected by the outcome of the referendum, are _denied the right to vote on it_
And if I might make a suggestion to the Spanish Government - those British who wish to remain in Spain, should the Brexit vote win the referendum, be required to lean Spanish so as to be fluent and to learn the history of Spain, and something of Spanish literature and culture. The next Tory government (Bonkers Boris as PM) will be imposing such measures on those who wish to come and live in the UK, so it is only acceptable that other countries do the same with those leaving the UK.
I am British and have lived in France for 30 years, and I never cease to be appalled at the parochialism and bigotry of the majority of British ex-pats.
3. What has the EU ever done for my … fellow creatures?
The RSPB and WWF on Thursday urged their combined 1.7 million supporters to vote to stay in the EU to protect UK wildlife, and Damian Carrington explored the EU directives that have helped protect an array of animals – and the agricultural policies that have sometimes had a negative effect.
In defense of directives, and how they could hold governments to account, one reader said this:
There's not a single EU directive the UK complies with that it hasn't signed up for itself.
But here's the thing: EU directives are longer term than national governments. This seems to be something that the out campaign objects to. I myself applaud it.
When we're talking about the environment, the funding of projects such as those described above the line could be severely impacted by a change of government after a Brexit. Now a government change doesn't impact them as the UK's commitment to EU directives is long term irrespective of which political colour rules the country at any given time. The EU safeguards the continuity of these and many other projects.
1. Since birds and fish in particular and animals in general don't live within national boundaries then the only way of protecting them is via Europe-wide agreements.
2. And we agree that the UK has stronger animal-protection legislation than the EU in some areas (though obviously not if you're a fox). Well that's terrific, now lobby the EU and elect MEPs who will fight for animal-rights legislation (that is what they are elected for and paid to do).
3. And if you want your democratic voice to be heard than join the European Green Party and vote for their candidates in European elections. They currently have 50 members and comprise 6.7% of the European Parliament's membership.
4. You may not have noticed - meeting as you do in the Albion Arms - that in many EU countries there is also a massive movement directed against agro-business. Find out what their doing, join them, and lobby with them the EU Parliament.
5. And if you still decide to vote for a Brexit you're not only incredibly dumb but you'll be shooting yourself in the foot. Happy hunting!
One aspect of this that makes me want to vote remain is how a post leave Conservative government would quickly tear-up pretty well all environmental legislation allowing developers a free hand to destroy protected species and environments all in the name of profits for the already wealthy elite.
Neonicotinoids would quickly be back (and our bee populations quickly gone) despite the scientific evidence, etc.
You only have to look at the situation over air pollution (that kills 40, 000 people a year in the UK alone) - UK government does nothing and wants to do even less whilst EU is continually pushing the UK to improve things and is now taking the UK government to court. We would stand no chance to have breathable air in towns and cities without the EU (noting that the wealthy elite all have country mansions not so impacted by the polluted air others are forced to breath).
Many of you also wanted to talk about fish and fishing.
The EU is not the most environmentally-friendly administration in the world when it comes to regulating the activities of EU country-flagged tuna fishing vessels fishing in "third country" waters.
Spanish purse-seiners have the highest dependency on fish aggregation devices (FADs) of all major tropical purse-seine fleets. It seems they can't catch a single tuna unless they set their net around a FAD. The problem with FAD fishing is that FADs attract a lot more juvenile tuna and non-tuna species.
Free-school fishing is a lot cleaner than FAD fishing, but it takes much more skill and experience to locate a free school of tuna. You need to know about oceanographic conditions, and you need to study the different birds that flock above different types of fish schools, looking for the baitfish driven to the surface.
Finally, we’re pretty sure we mentioned him above, but here’s one reader on the Guardian’s coverage of Jeremy Corbyn, left on an article about Alastair Darling and George Osborne.
There have been complaints and a report that the referendum campaign has been too toxic etc, yet one of the few people that are not subjecting the voters to histrionics is Jeremy Corbyn, yet he barely gets a mention in the Guardian, a few lines and then it is often pushed in a negative light.
Johnson is covered continuously either holding a pasty or a reality star with Farage repeating whatever Johnson says, likewise with Cameron, though he hasn't taken to holding pasties and reality stars, he's just holding people hostage in the workplace.
Corbyn is barely covered at all, you would think he is holding himself hostage in a room somewhere waiting for the referendum to finish.
It would appear that the Guardian is ignoring Corbyn, while at the same time criticizing him for not being vocal enough on the EU, there are reasons for this of course, firstly, any positive stories about Corbyn would detract from their portrayal of him as a weak leader who is out of touch with the real world i.e. big business and which of course will carry on after the referendum, secondly, while the Guardian may complain about the histrionics, it makes good headlines, whereas people making a calm and sensible case does not.
We’ll be back on Friday with another roundup of what you’re talking about in the comment sections on the EU referendum. You can help inform what we report on by filling in the form below.
So has JC finally woken up to the fact that the referendum is in a couple of weeks... Good for him? Does he just sleep his way through every major political even in this country, not realising he is in fact the opposition leader and it would be nice to hear his opinion on things every once in a while? No wonder Labour voters are confused about what to vote – the mayor of London is currently more of a figurehead and a spokesperson for Labour than the elected leader.